From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 10 20:11:06 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, June 11 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3353 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: fsj: swaps... and mileage Re: fsj: OD for FSJs fsj: RE: [CJ-10List] comparing cj-10a to J10 and XJ, seating and swaps... fsj: RE: [CJ-10List] Diesel upgrade Re: fsj: RE: [CJ-10List] comparing cj-10a to J10 and XJ, seating and swaps... RE: fsj: OD for FSJs fsj: RE: swaps... and mileage RE: fsj: swaps and mileage FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:41:15 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: swaps... and mileage it's more than just bleeding a little at the pump... with a Diesel you have the option of WVO, Diesel or BioDiesel when prices shoot up... longevity of the engine, massive torque, cool sounds coming from under the hood... and the fact that you don't need to stop at the pump nearly as often... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Michel Balea wrote: # # # # > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:03:55 -0700 # > From: john # > Subject: Re: fsj: swaps... and mileage # > # > just think if you'd used a VW TDI! # # # I am not too sure about VW quality nowadays..... when the kids shared a new beetle for a year, the trany went at 20K or so. VW picked up the tab.... The fuse panel had some cooked fuses..... # # As said the 4BT makes sense, if you can find one remotely for some change. The next step is to know what are the trany choices for the 4BT? # # You either choke a big chunk of $$$, or bleed a little after every fill up. # # Michel # 74wag # # _________________________________________________________________ # Hotmail. has ever-growing storage! Don't worry about storage limits. # http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial _Storage_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:49:55 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: fsj: OD for FSJs Sort of. JVX and the ultrabell are available to bolt up an A518 to a B/RB, and if what John said previously about the tug is true (it's an adapter to adapt whatever SAE pattern to the big block mopar), that would be what he needs. Hot Rod did a write up a while back on this, and memory serving me, all that was needed to make OD work was a switch on the dash to energize the solenoid. With the solenoid engaged, OD was forced on and would not come out of OD until the solenoid was not engaged, or the trans thought it was going slow enough to force a first gear downshift. It uses the same six position shifter as the three speed torqueflights did. The real problem with the A518 is its length. It's about 5" longer, memory serving me. I abandoned this as an idea and decided to stick with the 727 in my 440 powered D300 dually, and just add a gear vendors overdrive. Well, when I get around to it. It's a 2wd, so the measurements might be different for 4wd. On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 08:30:30AM -0700, Jim Blair wrote: > I sent them an email and they basically said it won't work with a 727. It's > made to bolt to the 518 (which already has an O/D so what a waste of time and > $ that would be unless super low geared!) > You would need to get an adapter made to bolt the Nissan SD33T to small > block Mopar pattern (they never made a big block version of the 518 AFAIK. The > V10 and Cummins diesel share the same pattern which is different) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:46:43 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: RE: [CJ-10List] comparing cj-10a to J10 and XJ, seating and swaps... the J10 fuel tank isn't the same as a GW... but you're right, when I did the 6.2/700r4 on my '91 GW it was really close to the fuel tank... what do you expect for your tug? does it have a/c? ;) I've given up on the idea of dropping the SD33/727 into an XJ... simply not enough room to work with... would consider a Mercedes TD, but then I have to engineer trans/xfr case solution... proceeding full speed with the J10 project, well, full speed is a relative term... ;) but at least I can test the sD33T in my tug before dropping it into my J10... so the plan is to get my j10 reassembled with the 4.2/t5 and drive it while I drop the SD33T in it and make sure it all works, then pull that and put it in my '83 J10 stepside... if the sd33t doesn't work... that would be a bummer, but I'd put the sd33 back in the tug and consider a 4bt for my j10. :) decided to pull my own trailer over the pass (after fixing the brakes) to get the SD33T, a 727 and a T19, probably run over there next week sometime... expect it to cost about $30 more in fuel, vs. $80 or more for the u-haul... have the brake lines ordered, need to reroute them on the axle so they clear the bump stops this time and bleed 'em... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Scott MacMoyle wrote: # If I remember right I measured 63 inches from the front of the fan to the # mounting surface for the t-case on the trans. On my SD33 / 727. Luckily my # 6.2 / 700r4 was the same. The engine was shorter and the tranny was longer # because of the OD. It is critical on a FSJ because of the side mounted fuel # tank. The tug engine sits further back on the waggy frame because of the # plate that the grille sits on. If I were to try a SD33/727 in a Cherokee I # think I would look at where the tranny was going to end up also. # # # # I have been contemplating putting my tug on Ebay to see if I could get half # of what I have into it. I am all about the project. When its finished I tend # to get kind of bored with it. My tug is cool because it's a tug and useful # because its on a full size chassis and can get out of its own way because # its got a 6.2 with overdrive. # # # # Scott M. # # # # From: CJ-10List-at-yahoogroups.com [mailto:CJ-10List-at-yahoogroups.com] On Behalf # Of diesel john # Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:30 PM # To: undisclosed-recipients: # Subject: [CJ-10List] comparing cj-10a to J10 and XJ, seating and swaps... # # # # # # # # # # ...at lunch time I looked at a 1999 Cherokee Limited... has a few issues # but is priced right... runs nicely... needs 02 sensor, tires, paint # on front fender/grille... leather and interior are fine... # http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/99-XJ-limited-107k/ALL.html # downside, it's not a Diesel... questioning how important that really # is to me... # --------------- # also looked at an '83 J10 stepside for parts, 360/4spd blown rear # axle... body rough, some good parts, but I like being married # and plan on being so for more than the existing 34 years, so this won't # be following me home, sorry dennis... ;) Jim, here ya go! # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/dennis-1983-j10-stepside-rough/ALL.html # # while both vehicles aren't likely to follow me home today, I had an ulterior # motive for looking at both with tape measure and camera in hand... # ------------------- # measured the cab difference between my cj-10a and the J10... # http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/COMPARE-cj10a-XJ-J10/compare-J10-CJ10-cab/ALL.htm # l # # basically 55" versus about 61", 6 more inches in width... doesn't seem like # a lot, until you're trying to place your left elbow somewhere... :) # -------------------- # also looked at the 4.0L vs. the 3.2L Diesel... # http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/COMPARE-cj10a-XJ-J10/compare-XJ-CJ10-engines/ALL. # html # # the xj 4.0 seems a bit smaller, didn't get really accurate readings, looks # like # about 33" to the radiator from the firewall for the xj and about 36" for the # SD33. # # engine height does look to be different, the 4.0 cowered around 24 while the # sd33 towered around 31... again, not really accurate... suspect both # dimensions # would work with some adjustments... and a large hammer... what does red # green # say? any tool can be the right tool... ;) # # might work out... if I really want to do all that work... of course since # the # xj only weighs in around 3,000lbs a Mercedes Turbo Diesel would be a much # better option... :) # # also going to look at a '90 XJ limited also with the preferred tan leather # interior # and a factory sunroof... I'm learning that just about any 4x4 Diesel or gas # is # going to get in the 15 to 20 mpg range... and the prices are close... of # course I # do have WVO and BioDiesel so that makes Diesel the preferred motivation... # # one other thing I noticed, the xj had a much harsher ride than the cj-10a!!! # tires # most likely, but when I hit the little lane bumps you could really feel 'em # in the xj, # not so much in the cj-10a... of course bumps in the road were treated more # respectfully # by the XJ... didn't get a chance to road test the J10, wasn't going to sit # in that seat. ;) # # john # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ---------------------------------------------------------- # # # # # # [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:50:16 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: RE: [CJ-10List] Diesel upgrade http://www.lilbigrig.com/Home_Page.php at those prices I'd consider purchasing a number of other vehicles... a little weird for me... it's one thing to drive a Cj-10a, it's quite another to drive something like that... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Scott MacMoyle wrote: # Well, if you have a chassis why not put this on top of it ??? who would be # cooler than you ?? # # http://www.lilbigrig.com/Home_Page.php # # Scott M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:10:18 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: RE: [CJ-10List] comparing cj-10a to J10 and XJ, seating and swaps... hey, there's only a handful of bolts involved... more complicated to take most laptops apart... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, JR McNeil wrote: # I've never heard of a guy swapping engines n such the way you do. I used to think I was a machine head. Compared to you, I'm a rank amature! Swap on. # # --- On Wed, 6/10/09, diesel john wrote: # # # From: diesel john # Subject: fsj: RE: [CJ-10List] comparing cj-10a to J10 and XJ, seating and swaps... # To: # Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 6:46 PM # # # the J10 fuel tank isn't the same as a GW... but you're # right, when I did the 6.2/700r4 on my '91 GW it was really # close to the fuel tank... # # what do you expect for your tug? # does it have a/c? ;) # # I've given up on the idea of dropping the SD33/727 into an XJ... simply # not enough room to work with... would consider a Mercedes TD, but then # I have to engineer trans/xfr case solution... # # proceeding full speed with the J10 project, well, full speed is # a relative term... ;) but at least I can test the sD33T in my # tug before dropping it into my J10... so the plan is to get my j10 # reassembled with the 4.2/t5 and drive it while I drop the SD33T # in it and make sure it all works, then pull that and put it in # my '83 J10 stepside... if the sd33t doesn't work... that would # be a bummer, but I'd put the sd33 back in the tug and consider # a 4bt for my j10. :) # # decided to pull my own trailer over the pass (after fixing the brakes) to get # the SD33T, a 727 and a T19, probably run over there next week sometime... # expect it to cost about $30 more in fuel, vs. $80 or more for the u-haul... # # have the brake lines ordered, need to reroute them on the axle so they # clear the bump stops this time and bleed 'em... # # john # # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Scott MacMoyle wrote: # # # If I remember right I measured 63 inches from the front of the fan to the # # mounting surface for the t-case on the trans. On my SD33 / 727. Luckily my # # 6.2 / 700r4 was the same. The engine was shorter and the tranny was longer # # because of the OD. It is critical on a FSJ because of the side mounted fuel # # tank. The tug engine sits further back on the waggy frame because of the # # plate that the grille sits on. If I were to try a SD33/727 in a Cherokee I # # think I would look at where the tranny was going to end up also. # # # # # # # # I have been contemplating putting my tug on Ebay to see if I could get half # # of what I have into it. I am all about the project. When its finished I tend # # to get kind of bored with it. My tug is cool because it's a tug and useful # # because its on a full size chassis and can get out of its own way because # # its got a 6.2 with overdrive. # # # # # # # # Scott M. # # # # # # # # From: CJ-10List-at-yahoogroups.com [mailto:CJ-10List-at-yahoogroups.com] On Behalf # # Of diesel john # # Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:30 PM # # To: undisclosed-recipients: # # Subject: [CJ-10List] comparing cj-10a to J10 and XJ, seating and swaps... # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ...at lunch time I looked at a 1999 Cherokee Limited... has a few issues # # but is priced right... runs nicely... needs 02 sensor, tires, paint # # on front fender/grille... leather and interior are fine... # # http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/99-XJ-limited-107k/ALL.html # # downside, it's not a Diesel... questioning how important that really # # is to me... # # --------------- # # also looked at an '83 J10 stepside for parts, 360/4spd blown rear # # axle... body rough, some good parts, but I like being married # # and plan on being so for more than the existing 34 years, so this won't # # be following me home, sorry dennis... ;) Jim, here ya go! # # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/dennis-1983-j10-stepside-rough/ALL.html # # # # while both vehicles aren't likely to follow me home today, I had an ulterior # # motive for looking at both with tape measure and camera in hand... # # ------------------- # # measured the cab difference between my cj-10a and the J10... # # http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/COMPARE-cj10a-XJ-J10/compare-J10-CJ10-cab/ALL.htm # # l # # # # basically 55" versus about 61", 6 more inches in width... doesn't seem like # # a lot, until you're trying to place your left elbow somewhere... :) # # -------------------- # # also looked at the 4.0L vs. the 3.2L Diesel... # # http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/COMPARE-cj10a-XJ-J10/compare-XJ-CJ10-engines/ALL. # # html # # # # the xj 4.0 seems a bit smaller, didn't get really accurate readings, looks # # like # # about 33" to the radiator from the firewall for the xj and about 36" for the # # SD33. # # # # engine height does look to be different, the 4.0 cowered around 24 while the # # sd33 towered around 31... again, not really accurate... suspect both # # dimensions # # would work with some adjustments... and a large hammer... what does red # # green # # say? any tool can be the right tool... ;) # # # # might work out... if I really want to do all that work... of course since # # the # # xj only weighs in around 3,000lbs a Mercedes Turbo Diesel would be a much # # better option... :) # # # # also going to look at a '90 XJ limited also with the preferred tan leather # # interior # # and a factory sunroof... I'm learning that just about any 4x4 Diesel or gas # # is # # going to get in the 15 to 20 mpg range... and the prices are close... of # # course I # # do have WVO and BioDiesel so that makes Diesel the preferred motivation... # # # # one other thing I noticed, the xj had a much harsher ride than the cj-10a!!! # # tires # # most likely, but when I hit the little lane bumps you could really feel 'em # # in the xj, # # not so much in the cj-10a... of course bumps in the road were treated more # # respectfully # # by the XJ... didn't get a chance to road test the J10, wasn't going to sit # # in that seat. ;) # # # # john # # ----- # # ---------------------------------------------------------- # # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # # ---------------------------------------------------------- # # # # # # # # # # # # [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] # # # # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:49:47 -0700 From: "Joe" Subject: RE: fsj: OD for FSJs I almost certain the 518 was behind a Cummins for at least a year or two in the dodge rams. The other option, is the 47RH. It's not electronic, it's OD, and it was built to handle 380ft lbs of torque, so it wouldn't have a problem with the sd33t. Joe H. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Kevin Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:50 AM To: Jim Blair Cc: john Meister; local Jeep list Subject: Re: fsj: OD for FSJs Sort of. JVX and the ultrabell are available to bolt up an A518 to a B/RB, and if what John said previously about the tug is true (it's an adapter to adapt whatever SAE pattern to the big block mopar), that would be what he needs. Hot Rod did a write up a while back on this, and memory serving me, all that was needed to make OD work was a switch on the dash to energize the solenoid. With the solenoid engaged, OD was forced on and would not come out of OD until the solenoid was not engaged, or the trans thought it was going slow enough to force a first gear downshift. It uses the same six position shifter as the three speed torqueflights did. The real problem with the A518 is its length. It's about 5" longer, memory serving me. I abandoned this as an idea and decided to stick with the 727 in my 440 powered D300 dually, and just add a gear vendors overdrive. Well, when I get around to it. It's a 2wd, so the measurements might be different for 4wd. On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 08:30:30AM -0700, Jim Blair wrote: > I sent them an email and they basically said it won't work with a 727. It's > made to bolt to the 518 (which already has an O/D so what a waste of time and > $ that would be unless super low geared!) > You would need to get an adapter made to bolt the Nissan SD33T to small > block Mopar pattern (they never made a big block version of the 518 AFAIK. The > V10 and Cummins diesel share the same pattern which is different) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:31:49 -0700 From: "Joe" Subject: fsj: RE: swaps... and mileage Why? Well for me I needed a everyday rig that could still tow our 6K lb enclosed trailer. I can get over 600 ft lbs of torque out of a 6bt without spending a dime on performance mods and still get better gas mileage than a v8 gas motor. The b-series Cummins are industrial grade motors and are quite arguably the most reliable motor ever made, especially the 1st-gen without the electronics. Oil, power steering, vacuum, and water pump (even a air compressor is available) are all gear driven, yet another reason it is very reliable. It is very common for diesel motors to 500K+. How many gas motors regularly go that far? Why put a 6bt/4bt in a Willys? Why not, besides it's just cool and something you don't see every day. Well I recoup my investment in mpg? Not even close, but it is still much cheaper than buying a newer truck that would suffice. Besides all of that, "Trucks are Built, Not Bought!". ;-) And the last reason... because like John, I have diesel on the brain and I might be a little mentally unstable. Joe Hughes Everett, WA 22 Willys-Overland Touring 49 Willys pickup, Cummins 3.9L 4bt on a 74 Cherokee chassis 50 Willys Wagon, Buick 231 V6 (Wife's) 64 Mercedes S220 Sedan (For Sale) 88 Honda CBR-600 94 BMW 540i e34 6-spd 4.0L 95 Dodge 2500 6bt, 47RH (soon to be a 50 Willys Wagon) 00 JGC Ltd. 4.7L - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Michel Balea Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 7:43 AM To: kevin-at-mordred.punk.net; joe diesel6bt Cc: fsj digest Subject: fsj: swaps... and mileage > Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:14:30 -0700 > From: kevin > I guess the question is why< > Lots of effort for seemingly little gain, IMO< I could not agree more about this 2 sentences. We seem to be spending so much energy..... for what. In my case the wagoneer does what it is design to do best: 1) Mild off-road to reach remote campsite that other vehicles could not achieve.... well I have seen hondas.... but you can hear the rocks bouncing against the floor/engine.... and most of the time a motorcycle rail attached to the hitch. 2) Ease of repair, stuck at 8pm on a sunday nite.... we can fix it. 3) Being smog exempt offers a lot of possibilities now, but may void #2. For the little story: I spent a week on the right coast, and we rented a prius.... so over mountainous area, the Adirondacks, Vermont and New Hampshire and some freeways, 2 drivers and one w a leaded foot.... after 760 miles... we used 15 gallons... slightly under 51 mpg, pretty impressive, with A/C on all the time. _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail.. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori a l_QuickAdd_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:10:21 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: swaps and mileage tomorrow can you find one for me and deliver it? :) will check it out, finding these jewels is the hard part, that's why I went with a 6.2 originally and why I'm planning on using the SD33T. The non-turbo has worked splendidly... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 11 Jun 2009, Michel Balea wrote: # # # So i spent a few hours... well the whole day really.... about that 4BT swap. There are 2 other versions: 4Bd1T 1986-7 to 1991-2 and 4Bd2T after 1991-2 (has the intercooler). The former does not require electronics, and can be mated to 700R4. # # Those seems to be smaller than the 4BT..... all came in isuzu trucks. # # I can throw some website at random # http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20&page=2 # # and adapter$$ # http://www.isuzudieselswapper.com/index.html # # Cheers # Michel # 74wag # # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live(TM) SkyDrive(TM): Get 25 GB of free online storage. # http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3353 **************************