From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jun 12 18:43:17 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, June 13 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3354 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: RE: swaps... and mileage RE: fsj: swaps... and mileage RE: fsj: swaps... and mileage RE: fsj: RE: swaps... and mileage RE: fsj: swaps and mileage RE: fsj: swaps and mileage RE: fsj: swaps and mileage RE: fsj: swaps and mileage fsj: 4BT for sale FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:11:52 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: RE: swaps... and mileage Diesel, Diesel, Diesel... yeah... :) just picked up 20+gals of WVO for Biodiesel... picking up 8 more tomorrow and then make a barrel run... still have 20gal of biod sitting ready to go in both my benz and my tug. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Joe wrote: # Why? # # Well for me I needed a everyday rig that could still tow our 6K lb enclosed # trailer. # # I can get over 600 ft lbs of torque out of a 6bt without spending a dime on # performance mods and still get better gas mileage than a v8 gas motor. # # The b-series Cummins are industrial grade motors and are quite arguably the # most reliable motor ever made, especially the 1st-gen without the # electronics. Oil, power steering, vacuum, and water pump (even a air # compressor is available) are all gear driven, yet another reason it is very # reliable. # # It is very common for diesel motors to 500K+. How many gas motors regularly # go that far? # # Why put a 6bt/4bt in a Willys? Why not, besides it's just cool and # something you don't see every day. # # Well I recoup my investment in mpg? Not even close, but it is still much # cheaper than buying a newer truck that would suffice. # # Besides all of that, "Trucks are Built, Not Bought!". ;-) # # And the last reason... because like John, I have diesel on the brain and I # might be a little mentally unstable. # # Joe Hughes # Everett, WA # 22 Willys-Overland Touring # 49 Willys pickup, Cummins 3.9L 4bt on a 74 Cherokee chassis # 50 Willys Wagon, Buick 231 V6 (Wife's) # 64 Mercedes S220 Sedan (For Sale) # 88 Honda CBR-600 # 94 BMW 540i e34 6-spd 4.0L # 95 Dodge 2500 6bt, 47RH (soon to be a 50 Willys Wagon) # 00 JGC Ltd. 4.7L # # # # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Michel # Balea # Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 7:43 AM # To: kevin-at-mordred.punk.net; joe diesel6bt # Cc: fsj digest # Subject: fsj: swaps... and mileage # # > Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:14:30 -0700 # > From: kevin # > I guess the question is why< # # > Lots of effort for seemingly little gain, IMO< # # # I could not agree more about this 2 sentences. We seem to be spending so # much # energy..... for what. # # In my case the wagoneer does what it is design to do best: # 1) Mild off-road to reach remote campsite that other vehicles could not # achieve.... well I have seen hondas.... but you can hear the rocks bouncing # against the floor/engine.... and most of the time a motorcycle rail attached # to the hitch. # 2) Ease of repair, stuck at 8pm on a sunday nite.... we can fix it. # 3) Being smog exempt offers a lot of possibilities now, but may void #2. # # For the little story: I spent a week on the right coast, and we rented a # prius.... so over mountainous area, the Adirondacks, Vermont and New # Hampshire # and some freeways, 2 drivers and one w a leaded foot.... after 760 miles... # we # used 15 gallons... slightly under 51 mpg, pretty impressive, with A/C on all # the time. # # _________________________________________________________________ # Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail.. # http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori # a # l_QuickAdd_062009 # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:00:23 -0700 From: "Joe" Subject: RE: fsj: swaps... and mileage Not to mention you can run engine oil (dino only), transmission oil, kerosene, and jet fuel. A couple weeks ago I picked up 25 gallons of undyed kerosene at a garage sale for $20. Joe H. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:41 AM To: Michel Balea Cc: full size jeep list; diesel-benz list Subject: RE: fsj: swaps... and mileage it's more than just bleeding a little at the pump... with a Diesel you have the option of WVO, Diesel or BioDiesel when prices shoot up... longevity of the engine, massive torque, cool sounds coming from under the hood... and the fact that you don't need to stop at the pump nearly as often... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Michel Balea wrote: # # # # > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:03:55 -0700 # > From: john # > Subject: Re: fsj: swaps... and mileage # > # > just think if you'd used a VW TDI! # # # I am not too sure about VW quality nowadays..... when the kids shared a new beetle for a year, the trany went at 20K or so. VW picked up the tab.... The fuse panel had some cooked fuses..... # # As said the 4BT makes sense, if you can find one remotely for some change. The next step is to know what are the trany choices for the 4BT? # # You either choke a big chunk of $$$, or bleed a little after every fill up. # # Michel # 74wag # # _________________________________________________________________ # Hotmail. has ever-growing storage! Don't worry about storage limits. # http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutoria l _Storage_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:37:25 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: swaps... and mileage I just picked up 20 gallons of WVO for nothing... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Joe wrote: # Not to mention you can run engine oil (dino only), transmission oil, # kerosene, and jet fuel. # # A couple weeks ago I picked up 25 gallons of undyed kerosene at a garage # sale for $20. # # # Joe H. # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john # Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:41 AM # To: Michel Balea # Cc: full size jeep list; diesel-benz list # Subject: RE: fsj: swaps... and mileage # # it's more than just bleeding a little at the pump... # # with a Diesel you have the option of WVO, Diesel or BioDiesel when # prices shoot up... longevity of the engine, massive torque, cool # sounds coming from under the hood... and the fact that you don't # need to stop at the pump nearly as often... ;) # # john # # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Michel Balea wrote: # # # # # # # # # > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:03:55 -0700 # # > From: john # # > Subject: Re: fsj: swaps... and mileage # # > # # > just think if you'd used a VW TDI! # # # # # # I am not too sure about VW quality nowadays..... when the kids shared a # new beetle for a year, the trany went at 20K or so. VW picked up the tab.... # The fuse panel had some cooked fuses..... # # # # As said the 4BT makes sense, if you can find one remotely for some # change. # The next step is to know what are the trany choices for the 4BT? # # # # You either choke a big chunk of $$$, or bleed a little after every fill # up. # # # # Michel # # 74wag # # # # _________________________________________________________________ # # Hotmail. has ever-growing storage! Don't worry about storage limits. # # # http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutoria # l # _Storage_062009 # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:16:45 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: RE: swaps... and mileage My '87 MJ's original 4.0L has nearly 400,000 and runs like a top with power to spare still! The Blowby is the only issue with that motor (thinking about adding an en-valve to the motor once I finish the auto swap) - ---------------------------------------- > From: joe-at-j-hughes.com > > It is very common for diesel motors to 500K+. How many gas motors regularly > go that far? > _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that^Rs right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:34:47 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: swaps and mileage why not consider an Edelbrock 1416 carb, or a Weber, or are you subject to visual inspections for emissions? as far as spending 4-7k for an engine, my friend, I don't spend that for entire vehicles... my '99 WJ is the only vehicle I've spent any where near that to buy, well, that one I did spend twice that much, but sold it and bought a cheaper one. :) as far as Diesels, you don't need anything except 12v, a fuel line, a return line and air. you don't need a boost gauge, EGT, or any of that other stuff UNLESS you start tweaking the engine. I've owned about five turbo Diesels and only one had a boost gauge, well, two did... one from the factory, the other aftermarket. and you don't really need a hydroboost, although they are recommended, AWESOME braking power... my mercedes and SD33 have a vacuum pump that provides brake vacuum, as did my Jeep with the Renault TD. only GM goes with the hydraboost setup. not sure about cummins, suspect they have a pump as well, ford does... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 11 Jun 2009, Michel Balea wrote: # # # They are around.... but as it was mentioned somewhere they run in the 4-7k. # # Time to hit the lots with a camera to see the engine specs. # # Need to correct a typo, the intercooler version started in 91 or 92 until 96 ( i forgot to put the end year in my previous post) then Isuzu went to the next gen 4H** # # It is tempting. I have 344k on my gasser, and it is still running and starting well with more blow by since last year, so it is time to think about replacement. The only issues are the gearing.... and the rust, and of course dealing w altitude. But last time I went up Donner pass... it did not bog until the last 2 miles from the 6500' to 7800' which is unusual to run so well (fingers crossed)..... I was going 65mph..... then dropped to usual 45mph (I had the motorcycle trailer w 2 off road bikes). I may try to swap a 2150 to see if it improves response at high elevation, I will use the one on the 85 that has proven to be working so well. # # So back to diesel, you need to have the correct sender for Temp, oil pressure, add a EGT gauge, Turbo boost gauge, Hydroboost, I guess the fuel pump has to be a different specs (mine is a 4-6 psi electrical) , the water separator, plumb the radiator for the correct outlet (they seem to be reversed on the 4BT). The tach has to be different, no distributor to plumb to.... The adapter engine to trany may not be needed..... if you have the correct trany, and it seems that some trany were the TH400.... # # Do the 4BT run 12 or 24volts? # # And now "diesel for dummies" My best guess it that as there is no timing the injectors are synchronized w the camshaft to deliver fuel at the right time? # # Michel # 74wag (344kmiles) # # > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:10:21 -0700 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com # > CC: fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: RE: fsj: swaps and mileage # > # > tomorrow can you find one for me and deliver it? :) # > # > will check it out, finding these jewels is the hard part, # > that's why I went with a 6.2 originally and why I'm # > planning on using the SD33T. The non-turbo has worked # > splendidly... # > # > john # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Thu, 11 Jun 2009, Michel Balea wrote: # > # > # # > # # > # So i spent a few hours... well the whole day really.... about that 4BT swap. There are 2 other versions: 4Bd1T 1986-7 to 1991-2 and 4Bd2T after 1991-2 (has the intercooler). The former does not require electronics, and can be mated to 700R4. # > # # > # Those seems to be smaller than the 4BT..... all came in isuzu trucks. # > # # > # I can throw some website at random # > # http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20&page=2 # > # # > # and adapter$$ # > # http://www.isuzudieselswapper.com/index.html # > # # > # Cheers # > # Michel # > # 74wag # > # # > # _________________________________________________________________ # > # Windows Live(TM) SkyDrive(TM): Get 25 GB of free online storage. # > # http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 # # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live(TM): Keep your life in sync. # http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:50:16 -0700 From: "Joe" Subject: RE: fsj: swaps and mileage Michel, The injector pump is gear driven and the timing can be set at the injection pump. On my 1st generation 4bt it is set by where the injection pump is mounted. On my 2nd gen 6bt is set in the pump itself. As anyone else had problems with fsj-at-digest.net? I'm not receiving all the messages and I know some of my posts aren't going through. Joe H. # # And now "diesel for dummies" My best guess it that as there is no timing the injectors are synchronized w the camshaft to deliver fuel at the right time? # # Michel # 74wag (344kmiles) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:10:35 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: swaps and mileage Thank you. I am receiving most digests.... at least the ones that I sent (this is a reply all, at 18:06 PST) Michel > From: joe-at-j-hughes.com > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: swaps and mileage > Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:50:16 -0700 > > Michel, > The injector pump is gear driven and the timing can be set at the injection > pump. On my 1st generation 4bt it is set by where the injection pump is > mounted. On my 2nd gen 6bt is set in the pump itself. > > > As anyone else had problems with fsj-at-digest.net? I'm not receiving all the > messages and I know some of my posts aren't going through. > > Joe H. > > # > # And now "diesel for dummies" My best guess it that as there is no timing > the injectors are synchronized w the camshaft to deliver fuel at the right > time? > # > # Michel > # 74wag (344kmiles) _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail. has ever-growing storage! Don^Rt worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial _Storage_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:01:45 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: swaps and mileage been quiet... but I've been busy... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 11 Jun 2009, Joe wrote: # Michel, # The injector pump is gear driven and the timing can be set at the injection # pump. On my 1st generation 4bt it is set by where the injection pump is # mounted. On my 2nd gen 6bt is set in the pump itself. # # # As anyone else had problems with fsj-at-digest.net? I'm not receiving all the # messages and I know some of my posts aren't going through. # # Joe H. # # # # # And now "diesel for dummies" My best guess it that as there is no timing # the injectors are synchronized w the camshaft to deliver fuel at the right # time? # # # # Michel # # 74wag (344kmiles) # ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 01:41:38 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: fsj: 4BT for sale just to spike interest. As said: search and you will find... too bad it is a chero... and too many $$$ 8000. At least there is a complete history of the swap in the forums with the potential pitfalls.... and they are numerous. http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=941755#post941755 Michel 74wag _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3354 **************************