From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Jun 25 01:02:53 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, June 25 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3365 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: RE: emissions test fsj: RE: emissions test fsj: RE: RE: emissions test Re: fsj: emissions test fsj: RE: RE: emissions test fsj: economy ideas... 360 and 4.0 fsj: Re: xj: fuel economy for the 4.0 fsj: craigslist RE: fsj: RE: RE: emissions test FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:51:29 -0700 From: "Joe" Subject: fsj: RE: emissions test If that was at idle then I'd say idle mixture needs to be adjusted. Essentially CO is burnt fuel and hydrocarbons are unburnt fuel. So it seems the ignition is working well enough to have low hydrocarbons, but it's getting too much fuel which is causing the high CO readings. I've gotten a 360 to pass without a cat before, so I know it can be done. Just leaning it out enough to pass, but not so much that you get a misfire. Joe Hughes Everett, WA 22 Willys-Overland Touring 49 Willys pickup, Cummins 3.9L 4bt on a 74 Cherokee chassis 50 Willys Wagon, Buick 231 V6 (Wife's) 64 Mercedes S220 Sedan (For Sale) 88 Honda CBR-600 94 BMW 540i e34 6-spd 4.0L 95 Dodge 2500 6bt, 47RH 00 JGC Ltd. 4.7L - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:35 PM To: full size jeep list Subject: fsj: emissions test my son tested his GW today, failed on CO - 7.8%, max 1.2% hydrocarbons were ok... around 122 max was 130. what needs to be done? it has no air pump, no cat converter, just the carb... we don't do visuals here, just tailpipe test. ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:35:20 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: RE: emissions test how about timing? I told him to change the plugs and wires, set the timing to factory, etc... but no, he wanted to pull everything off and test it... you should see the plugs... the electrodes are nearly worn off... then he bumped up the timing and pulled it off of ported vacuum... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Joe wrote: # If that was at idle then I'd say idle mixture needs to be adjusted. # # Essentially CO is burnt fuel and hydrocarbons are unburnt fuel. So it seems # the ignition is working well enough to have low hydrocarbons, but it's # getting too much fuel which is causing the high CO readings. # # I've gotten a 360 to pass without a cat before, so I know it can be done. # Just leaning it out enough to pass, but not so much that you get a misfire. # # Joe Hughes # Everett, WA # 22 Willys-Overland Touring # 49 Willys pickup, Cummins 3.9L 4bt on a 74 Cherokee chassis # 50 Willys Wagon, Buick 231 V6 (Wife's) # 64 Mercedes S220 Sedan (For Sale) # 88 Honda CBR-600 # 94 BMW 540i e34 6-spd 4.0L # 95 Dodge 2500 6bt, 47RH # 00 JGC Ltd. 4.7L # # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john # Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:35 PM # To: full size jeep list # Subject: fsj: emissions test # # my son tested his GW today, failed on CO - 7.8%, max 1.2% # hydrocarbons were ok... around 122 max was 130. # # what needs to be done? # # it has no air pump, no cat converter, just the carb... we don't # do visuals here, just tailpipe test. ;) # # john # # # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:44:09 -0700 From: "Joe" Subject: fsj: RE: RE: emissions test Did he fail at idle, cruise or both? Joe H. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:35 PM To: Joe Cc: 'full size jeep list' Subject: fsj: RE: emissions test how about timing? I told him to change the plugs and wires, set the timing to factory, etc... but no, he wanted to pull everything off and test it... you should see the plugs... the electrodes are nearly worn off... then he bumped up the timing and pulled it off of ported vacuum... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Joe wrote: # If that was at idle then I'd say idle mixture needs to be adjusted. # # Essentially CO is burnt fuel and hydrocarbons are unburnt fuel. So it seems # the ignition is working well enough to have low hydrocarbons, but it's # getting too much fuel which is causing the high CO readings. # # I've gotten a 360 to pass without a cat before, so I know it can be done. # Just leaning it out enough to pass, but not so much that you get a misfire. # # Joe Hughes # Everett, WA # 22 Willys-Overland Touring # 49 Willys pickup, Cummins 3.9L 4bt on a 74 Cherokee chassis # 50 Willys Wagon, Buick 231 V6 (Wife's) # 64 Mercedes S220 Sedan (For Sale) # 88 Honda CBR-600 # 94 BMW 540i e34 6-spd 4.0L # 95 Dodge 2500 6bt, 47RH # 00 JGC Ltd. 4.7L # # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john # Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:35 PM # To: full size jeep list # Subject: fsj: emissions test # # my son tested his GW today, failed on CO - 7.8%, max 1.2% # hydrocarbons were ok... around 122 max was 130. # # what needs to be done? # # it has no air pump, no cat converter, just the carb... we don't # do visuals here, just tailpipe test. ;) # # john # # # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:57:52 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: fsj: emissions test You will have a harder time getting it to pass without all that stuff. High HC and high CO suggests to me you're running a bit fat. Shot spark plugs, varnished carb, etc.... I had a POS toyota that sat for two years that had similar symptoms. You won't believe me, but running two of those 33% more free cans of carb cleaner through the carb while holding the idle high so it wouldn't die made it pass with a pretty respectable margin. I figured it was better to try that than mess with the voodoo in toyota carbs ;) Hanging thermostat might cause you a little issue as well, and absolutely go in with a somewhat fresh oil change. On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 06:35:02PM -0700, john wrote: > my son tested his GW today, failed on CO - 7.8%, max 1.2% > hydrocarbons were ok... around 122 max was 130. > > what needs to be done? > > it has no air pump, no cat converter, just the carb... we don't > do visuals here, just tailpipe test. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:10:08 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: RE: RE: emissions test cruise ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Joe wrote: # Did he fail at idle, cruise or both? # # Joe H. # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john # Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:35 PM # To: Joe # Cc: 'full size jeep list' # Subject: fsj: RE: emissions test # # how about timing? # # I told him to change the plugs and wires, set the timing to factory, etc... # # but no, he wanted to pull everything off and test it... you should see # the plugs... the electrodes are nearly worn off... then he bumped up # the timing and pulled it off of ported vacuum... # # john # # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Joe wrote: # # # If that was at idle then I'd say idle mixture needs to be adjusted. # # # # Essentially CO is burnt fuel and hydrocarbons are unburnt fuel. So it # seems # # the ignition is working well enough to have low hydrocarbons, but it's # # getting too much fuel which is causing the high CO readings. # # # # I've gotten a 360 to pass without a cat before, so I know it can be done. # # Just leaning it out enough to pass, but not so much that you get a # misfire. # # # # Joe Hughes # # Everett, WA # # 22 Willys-Overland Touring # # 49 Willys pickup, Cummins 3.9L 4bt on a 74 Cherokee chassis # # 50 Willys Wagon, Buick 231 V6 (Wife's) # # 64 Mercedes S220 Sedan (For Sale) # # 88 Honda CBR-600 # # 94 BMW 540i e34 6-spd 4.0L # # 95 Dodge 2500 6bt, 47RH # # 00 JGC Ltd. 4.7L # # # # # # -----Original Message----- # # From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of # john # # Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:35 PM # # To: full size jeep list # # Subject: fsj: emissions test # # # # my son tested his GW today, failed on CO - 7.8%, max 1.2% # # hydrocarbons were ok... around 122 max was 130. # # # # what needs to be done? # # # # it has no air pump, no cat converter, just the carb... we don't # # do visuals here, just tailpipe test. ;) # # # # john # # # # # # # # # # ----- # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:44:08 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: economy ideas... 360 and 4.0 thinking about what could be done to improve a 4.0. I'm thinking smaller injectors, retard the timing a bit to prevent meltdown, good plugs/cables, free breathing intake/exhaust, amsoil synthetics... not sure what else one could do to reduce fuel/power and increase economy... other than swap in a Diesel. Speaking of that, would an SD33T fit in an XJ? :) just happen to have one... and a bunch of affordable XJs that folks are selling because of fuel prices. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, Terry Halmshaw wrote: Geez the price of fuel these days would have me looking for the greatest fuel savings possible, especially driving a drinker like the 360. Some more tips on economy with the 360 and most other engines, but primarily the 360, run 10 MM nascar leads, dual conductor spark plugs of a hotter temp. Lean off the fuel, not to much, just enough where it wont starve for fuel. Larger diameter air filter for better flow. Solid state coil. Strobe the distributor so as to only have 25 degrees total advance instead of the standard 43 degrees. Reduce the accelerator pump jet size to half, this is where huge amounts of fuel are used. Use smaller primary jets, and larger secondary if ever your going to tow. Larger vacuum pot for secondaries this will delay the time they open. The last time I did all these things the economy went from 11MPG to 16 MPG with better torque and more power when you needed it, although the power is a little slower coming on, but it's there when you are towing or overtaking. Changing from square bore to spread bore also helps, as does the early heads and headers as the power is there with little effort. Terry. At 08:13 PM 6/24/2009, you wrote: >you may have spotted it... of course my kid doesn't >care... he can wait out the requirement... it no longer >needs to be tested after this fall... ;) > >but it does bog going down hill so the float may be too high, >he also forgot to check the air filter... > >thanx >john > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, Terry Halmshaw wrote: > > But again the best way to reduce monoxide levels is to use ether, a > high octane fuel additive based from sugar, 10% ratio is best any higher > can cause problems, unlike ethanol it does not emit a suspicious odor :). > > Also reduce the intake of fuel, lean it off a little, and make > sure the choke > is not stuck part way or all the way shut, clean air filter is a must. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:13:33 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: xj: fuel economy for the 4.0 yeah, if I use the scout d300/t19 I'll have to flip the xfr case to get a driver's side drop... not sure if I can use the t18 pieces to mate the np208, which is the same size as the xfr cases found in xjs... I don't know, will have to talk to my tranny guy, the aw4 locks up nicely... behaves well... same kind of "gut" feeling in the positive sense with my 45RFE... I simply have bad vibes toward 727s and 42res... :) and I'm not sure I want to do a manual in anything... remember all those stop lights before we hit I-5? well there's the same number on the other side of I-5 and the that manage the lights can't seem to get them in sync... I was stopped by almost EVERY one of them this morning... there's 14 by quick count... on the other side... only 9... try getting a 4,000lb tug rolling 23 times... no wonder I'm only getting 18 mpg. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Kevin wrote: # The AW4 is absolutely bad for efficiency. The difference between 21 and # 25 is ... well, almost 20%. The 31s will knock down the revs on the # highway, but the extra inch of rubber of it over the black jeep might be # part of the problem. # # The 42RE was great. Great at heading to the shop. I'm not a big fan of the # 45RFE either (it's way too complex, even though it seems to behave itself, # and seems to be coupled to bigger power than a 4.7, so a jeep isn't likely # to hurt it). # # Haven't seen an SD33 in the flesh in probably seven years. I'd imagine a 727 # would fit, given the size of the AX-15 about ten yards from me and the fact # that it looks about the size of the 727 I have as a spare for the hornet. 208 # over a 231 might require some sledgehammer because I think they're bigger # and I'm too lazy to crawl under the red jeep to have a look. I've heard of # D300s in XJs, but I could swear there was a flip involved. Can't remember # though, might be thinking of CJ stuff that's passenger drop because it's # pre 80. # # Sorry, brain's fried this week. Drove the diesel landcruiser to work two days # this week because I didn't want to try to debug a fishbiting gasser :) # # On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 09:52:22PM -0700, john wrote: # > I've seen 17/21 with an '87 with 3.55s, 31's, 3" of lift, AW4/np231 # > # > I don't think the AW4 is all that bad for efficiency... I like it # > better than the 42re they used in the Zj and the 4.0 WJs... the # > 45RFE in my 4.7 WJ seems to be quite good. I've seen 21 with it... # > although towing the J10 trailer I barely made 13 mpg at 70. # > # > next question... would a SD33T with a 727/d300 or np208 fit in an XJ? :) # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:48:03 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: craigslist just venting... some of the folks that put up ads on craigslist don't seem to have much of a clue... a few examples: - - they post a 300x222 pixel picture and think you can see the scratches on the door... and then tell you they have pictures up there... argghhh... and they expect you to drive 2 hours to come and look instead of emailing full size pictures - - they advertise a Jeep 4.0L as a V6 - - they advertise a Grand Cherokee as a Cherokee - - they list a 300D as a 300TD because their sedan has a Turbo, but it's NOT a wagon - - they list a Wagoneer and it turns out to be an XJ. - - they don't know what kind of transmission, transfer case or sometimes the color of the interior... - - the dealers are really irritating, they don't put a price so a search within a range will pull up their ads with no prices and of course those prices are tens of thousands more than your budget and if you put something up there, some twerp will flag it for you... and of course you never know what is really there... that one guy listed a "'71 Porsche targa top"... but no model... could have been a 911, I had to check it out... sure it was a ratty 914, but one never knows... ah, it's all part of the adventure isn't it? :) You know I was able to kick the habit with paper... I quit picking up those free weekly ad sheets... walking away from the gold mine on craigslist, well, that may just require an intervention of some kind... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:00:20 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: RE: RE: emissions test High CO is really incomplete combustion due to an unbalanced mix, just like the folks who die in their home w all the fresh air vent plugged, they breath high CO. So either plugged AF or too much gas being dumped: as said "idle mixture" is a quick cheat but at 6x the passing value: it can be a overactive power valve at cruise, partially closed choke flapper. If we give us the idle value that will be nice. Without AIR, you will get higher HC, without EGR it is high NOX. Sometime people lean the carb too much and get some high HC. I suspect that the choke was checked prior to testing, and that the engine was at running temp for 10 miles or so and that it was left idling prior to testing. Michel > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:10:08 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: joe-at-j-hughes.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: RE: RE: emissions test > > cruise > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Joe wrote: > > # Did he fail at idle, cruise or both? > # > # Joe H. > # > # -----Original Message----- > # From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john > # Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:35 PM > # To: Joe > # Cc: 'full size jeep list' > # Subject: fsj: RE: emissions test > # > # how about timing? > # > # I told him to change the plugs and wires, set the timing to factory, etc... > # > # but no, he wanted to pull everything off and test it... you should see > # the plugs... the electrodes are nearly worn off... then he bumped up > # the timing and pulled it off of ported vacuum... > # > # john > # > # > # > # ----- > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > # > # On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Joe wrote: > # > # # If that was at idle then I'd say idle mixture needs to be adjusted. > # # > # # Essentially CO is burnt fuel and hydrocarbons are unburnt fuel. So it > # seems > # # the ignition is working well enough to have low hydrocarbons, but it's > # # getting too much fuel which is causing the high CO readings. > # # > # # I've gotten a 360 to pass without a cat before, so I know it can be done. > # # Just leaning it out enough to pass, but not so much that you get a > # misfire. > # # > # # Joe Hughes > # # Everett, WA > # # 22 Willys-Overland Touring > # # 49 Willys pickup, Cummins 3.9L 4bt on a 74 Cherokee chassis > # # 50 Willys Wagon, Buick 231 V6 (Wife's) > # # 64 Mercedes S220 Sedan (For Sale) > # # 88 Honda CBR-600 > # # 94 BMW 540i e34 6-spd 4.0L > # # 95 Dodge 2500 6bt, 47RH > # # 00 JGC Ltd. 4.7L > # # > # # > # # -----Original Message----- > # # From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of > # john > # # Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:35 PM > # # To: full size jeep list > # # Subject: fsj: emissions test > # # > # # my son tested his GW today, failed on CO - 7.8%, max 1.2% > # # hydrocarbons were ok... around 122 max was 130. > # # > # # what needs to be done? > # # > # # it has no air pump, no cat converter, just the carb... we don't > # # do visuals here, just tailpipe test. ;) > # # > # # john > # # > # # > # # > # # > # # ----- > # # - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > # # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > # # - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # # > # _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. 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