From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jul 7 15:11:06 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, July 7 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3375 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: : xj: RE: FOUND the J20!!! RE: fsj: looking for a J20 sold in snohomish Re: : xj: RE: FOUND the J20!!! RE: fsj: looking for a J20 sold in snohomish RE: : xj: RE: FOUND the J20!!! RE: fsj: looking for a J20 sold in snohomish fsj: OT: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers (fwd) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:14:08 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: Re: : xj: RE: FOUND the J20!!! RE: fsj: looking for a J20 sold in snohomish Actually, low gears EAT gas. I had 3.73s in my '73 J4000, but I had 17% O/D in the tcase, so it was more like 2.79 ratio with the 33" tires vs stock. I got 17 mpg with a 304/TH400 setup. That truck could pull down a house too! The 727 is more economical than the TH400 and can be made even better with a lockup converter and a few tricks. Tweaking the carb a bit on the 360 makes better economy too. (I set up a '76 wagoneer with 360/TH400 and 3.08 gears to get 17 mpg highway too!) The biggest trick to the Motorcraft carb is correct float level (It needs to be set lower for alcohol blended fuel like we have here than regular gas) and make sure the power valve is good. The higher the engine vacuum, the less gas it uses. Higher than stock engine timing (-at-10-15 degrees BTDC) helps. COlder range plugs keep the ping monster away, even w/o and EGR valve. From: john Subject: xj: RE: FOUND the J20!!! RE: fsj: looking for a J20 sold in snohomish 3.73s are about as ideal of gearing as one can get... your tires aren't that large, what are they? 31" or so? unless you're running 44" tires or rock crawling 4.56's are ridiculous... that truck will never get decent economy because of the AMC 360 V8 and TF727 transmission. If you switch the carb and manifold over to Edelbrock performer RV, inflate the tires to the maximum and switch to Amsoil 100% synthetics through out, and then drive down hill at an idle you might see 12, maybe 13 mpg... on a good day... 4.56s without overdrive would have you topped out at 50 mph and give you 7 miles per gallon... you can do the math on the gears yourself, but that engine is happiest around 1,600 to 1,800 rpm, peak torque and horsepower, give or take a few hundred rpm... but nonetheless, you want to go the other way if you're going to change, and I wouldn't... 3.73 is the perfect blend for a 4x4, low enough to get you moving and still allow you to cruise on the freeway... I had 4.10s in an '80 J10 with a fresh 360/at... large tires even... it was screaming down the freeway at the legal limit coming up from california... I got 10 mpg... even at 60 through Oregon I barely got 11 mpg... my '81 GW had 2.72s, too tall really, but I could still get nearly 13 with it. 3.31, 3.54s seem to be a realistic gearing for a J10 or GW... 3.73s are the best of both worlds... 3.54s are also a good gearing set for freeway on your truck... 4.56s are totally and utterly insane, unless you plan to do rock crawling with 35" or larger tires. http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/gears.html http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/tire-calcs.html http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/CJ-10A-misc/Axle-Plan-cj10a.pdf use this excel spreadsheet to do the math... http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/CJ-10A-misc/Axle-Plan-cj10a.xls _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y SkyDrive^Y: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:49:39 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: : xj: RE: FOUND the J20!!! RE: fsj: looking for a J20 sold in snohomish Jim, what was the gear ratio on that Cherokee you had, the tan one that we swapped grills with? you had a 4.2 in that and got really decent mileage... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 5 Jul 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # Actually, low gears EAT gas. I had 3.73s in my '73 J4000, but I had 17% O/D in # the tcase, so it was more like 2.79 ratio with the 33" tires vs stock. I got # 17 mpg with a 304/TH400 setup. That truck could pull down a house too! # The 727 is more economical than the TH400 and can be made even better with # a lockup converter and a few tricks. Tweaking the carb a bit on the 360 makes # better economy too. (I set up a '76 wagoneer with 360/TH400 and 3.08 gears to # get 17 mpg highway too!) # The biggest trick to the Motorcraft carb is correct float level (It needs # to be set lower for alcohol blended fuel like we have here than regular gas) # and make sure the power valve is good. The higher the engine vacuum, the less # gas it uses. Higher than stock engine timing (-at-10-15 degrees BTDC) helps. # COlder range plugs keep the ping monster away, even w/o and EGR valve. # # From: john # Subject: xj: RE: FOUND the J20!!! RE: fsj: looking for a J20 sold in # snohomish # # 3.73s are about as ideal of gearing as one can get... # # your tires aren't that large, what are they? 31" or so? unless # you're running 44" tires or rock crawling 4.56's are ridiculous... # # that truck will never get decent economy because of the AMC 360 V8 # and TF727 transmission. If you switch the carb and manifold # over to Edelbrock performer RV, inflate the tires to the # maximum and switch to Amsoil 100% synthetics through out, # and then drive down hill at an idle you might see 12, maybe 13 mpg... on # a good day... # # 4.56s without overdrive would have you topped out at 50 mph and give # you 7 miles per gallon... # # you can do the math on the gears yourself, but that engine is happiest # around 1,600 to 1,800 rpm, peak torque and horsepower, give or take a # few hundred rpm... but nonetheless, you want to go the other way # if you're going to change, and I wouldn't... # # 3.73 is the perfect blend for a 4x4, low enough to get you moving # and still allow you to cruise on the freeway... # # I had 4.10s in an '80 J10 with a fresh 360/at... large tires even... # it was screaming down the freeway at the legal limit coming up # from california... I got 10 mpg... even at 60 through Oregon # I barely got 11 mpg... # # my '81 GW had 2.72s, too tall really, but I could still get nearly 13 with # it. # # 3.31, 3.54s seem to be a realistic gearing for a J10 or GW... # # 3.73s are the best of both worlds... # # # 3.54s are also a good gearing set for freeway on your truck... 4.56s # are totally and utterly insane, unless you plan to do rock crawling with 35" # or larger tires. # # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/gears.html # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/tire-calcs.html # # http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/CJ-10A-misc/Axle-Plan-cj10a.pdf # # use this excel spreadsheet to do the math... # http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/CJ-10A-misc/Axle-Plan-cj10a.xls # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live^Y SkyDrive^Y: Get 25 GB of free online storage. # http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 04:25:47 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: : xj: RE: FOUND the J20!!! RE: fsj: looking for a J20 sold in snohomish Elmo had 2.72 gears. I don't suggest those with a V8 though! The trans was a 999, which has better 1st/2nd ratios than the 727 and a lockup converter. It has less revolving mass as well. They are fine to run with a V8 if you don't overload them like I did (my bus trailer was 5 tons empty) The 6 cyl is set up different from the V8 and makes it's torque in the bottom end rpm. The V8 is just starting to turn on at that point. I would suggest 4.10s with tires over 33" in an FSJ. As an aside, on my '88 Comanche I had 3.08 gears originally and I put 33/9.50/15 tires on with the Peugeot BA 10/5 trans (I'll come back to that later on. It's the reason I sent you the link for that 1981 Peugeot 504 diesel Dangel 4x4 wagon. Might make a good motor swap for an XJ) Anyways, the MJ didn't have much top end power and 5th was good for cruising only on the flats. I switched to 3.73s and the power was exactly like it was before I put the taller tires on (quick check of the change using the 4lo.com calculators showed it was in fact the equivalent to 3.08) I was looking to get some more power so I swapped in 4.10 gears and quite the opposite happened. The quick takeoff was lost and I lost my freeway speed, even with 5th gear. (I was driving from Lynnwood to Tukwila every day for the week and used double the fuel until my next day off when I could swap it out!) I recently swapped out the rear axle in my '82 Spirit (for one from an Eagle) and the same thing has happened. I'm putting taller tires on and an AW4 trans with .70 O/D so it should dial back in to where I want it. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 - ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:49:39 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: : xj: RE: FOUND the J20!!! RE: fsj: looking for a J20 sold in snohomish > > Jim, > > what was the gear ratio on that Cherokee you had, the tan one > that we swapped grills with? you had a 4.2 in that and got > really decent mileage... > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > # _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y SkyDrive^Y: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:10:00 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: OT: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers (fwd) also passing this along for verification... :) this may be the same kind of story circulated about clinton and cattle guards in wyoming... hard to say... maybe it's a joke, but the arrogance of many with a liberal mindset defies logic, and the sometimes the laws of physics... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Weigand, Gregory L" Subject: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers Ok I am forwarding this without checking it for authenticity. I'm afraid if I find out this is true I may shoot someone or myself. I just hope it's a joke and a good one at that, but I am told it is not! Automotive Industry Challenge... (We're all doomed, but we could die laughing!) Email circulating around at Ford Motor Co... My neighbor recently attended a breakfast meeting where the speaker/ guest was David E. Cole, Chairman, Center for Automotive Research (CAR). You have all likely heard Cole CAR quoted, or referred to in the auto industry news lately. Mr. Cole, who is an engineer by training, told many stories of the difficulty of working with the folks that the Obama administration has sent to save the auto industry. There have been many meetings where a 30+ year experience automotive expert has to listen to a newcomer to the industry, someone with zero manufacturing experience, zero auto industry experience, zero business experience, zero finance experience, and zero engineering experience, tell them how to run their business. His favorite story is as follows: There was a team of Obama people speaking to Mr. Cole (Engineer, automotive experience 40+ years, Chairman of CAR). They were explaining to Mr. Cole that the auto companies needed to make a car that was electric and liquid natural gas (LNG) with enough combined fuel to go 500 miles so we wouldn't "need" so many gas stations (A whole other topic). They were quoting BTU's of LNG and battery life that they had looked up on some website. Mr. Cole explained that to do this you would need a trunk FULL of batteries and a LNG tank at big as a car to make that happen and that there were problems related to the laws of physics that prevented them from... The Obama person interrupted and said (and I am quoting here) "The laws of physics? Whose rules are those, we need to change that. (Some of the others wrote down the law name so they could look it up). We have the congress and the administration. We can repeal that law, amend it, or use an executive order to get rid of that problem. That's why we are here, to fix these sort of issues". ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3375 **************************