From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Jul 11 14:32:11 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, July 11 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3376 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: OT: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers (fwd) fsj: Re: [db] OT: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers (fwd) Re: fsj: OT: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers (fwd) fsj: Re: 10 cars that brought down detroit.. (fwd) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:06:46 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: OT: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers (fwd) C'mon, y'all _still_ haven't learned about snopes? ;) http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/physics.asp (I just went to snopes.com and searched for "obama laws of physics", no quotes. Exactly one hit.) Even in the comment at the end by Dr. Cole, it sounds to me like that may have been an intentionally silly, sarcastic response. Obama is similar to Bush... He gives us plenty of stuff to criticize and make fun of; there's no need to make stuff up. :P john said: {- also passing this along for verification... :) {- {- this may be the same kind of story circulated about clinton and {- cattle guards in wyoming... hard to say... maybe it's a joke, but {- the arrogance of many with a liberal mindset defies logic, and {- the sometimes the laws of physics... ;) {- {- john {- {- ----- {- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ {- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold {- http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org {- http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us {- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ {- {- {- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- {- From: "Weigand, Gregory L" {- {- Subject: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers {- {- Ok I am forwarding this without checking it for authenticity. I'm afraid {- if I find out this is true I may shoot someone or myself. I just hope {- it's a joke and a good one at that, but I am told it is not! {- {- {- Automotive Industry Challenge... (We're all doomed, but we could die laughi {- ng!) {- {- {- Email circulating around at Ford Motor Co... {- {- My neighbor recently attended a breakfast meeting where the speaker/ {- guest was David E. Cole, Chairman, Center for Automotive Research {- (CAR). You have all likely heard Cole CAR quoted, or referred to in the {- auto industry news lately. {- {- Mr. Cole, who is an engineer by training, told many stories of the {- difficulty of working with the folks that the Obama administration has {- sent to save the auto industry. There have been many meetings where a {- 30+ year experience automotive expert has to listen to a newcomer to the {- industry, someone with zero manufacturing experience, zero auto industry {- experience, zero business experience, zero finance experience, and zero {- engineering experience, tell them how to run their business. {- {- His favorite story is as follows: {- {- There was a team of Obama people speaking to Mr. Cole (Engineer, {- automotive experience 40+ years, Chairman of CAR). They were explaining {- to Mr. Cole that the auto companies needed to make a car that was {- electric and liquid natural gas (LNG) with enough combined fuel to go {- 500 miles so we wouldn't "need" so many gas stations (A whole other {- topic). They were quoting BTU's of LNG and battery life that they had {- looked up on some website. {- {- Mr. Cole explained that to do this you would need a trunk FULL of {- batteries and a LNG tank at big as a car to make that happen and that {- there were problems related to the laws of physics that prevented them {- from... {- {- The Obama person interrupted and said (and I am quoting here) "The laws {- of physics? Whose rules are those, we need to change that. (Some of {- the others wrote down the law name so they could look it up). We have {- the congress and the administration. We can repeal that law, amend it, {- or use an executive order to get rid of that problem. That's why we are {- here, to fix these sort of issues". {- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I went out for pizza. Then I went to Canada. -- Martin Bishop/Brice - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:37:25 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] OT: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers (fwd) agreed ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Bruce Caruthers wrote: # Wow. I'm not sure whether the correction or the legend is a more # disturbing statement... # # "I have not met personally with the Obama Auto Task Force. # The comments related to the 'laws of physics' came from a # discussion I had a number of years ago with several # congressmen who said that we should pass a new 2nd law of # thermodynamics." # # -bkc # Lynnwood, WA # (his) '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] # (hers) '92 Toyota Celica GT # (ours) '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] # # On Tue Jul 07, 2009, Chuck Goolsbee wrote: # > # > Easy answer, # > http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/physics.asp # > # > # > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- # > > From: "Weigand, Gregory L" # > > # > > Subject: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers # > > # > > Ok I am forwarding this without checking it for authenticity. I'm afraid # > > if I find out this is true I may shoot someone or myself. I just hope # > > it's a joke and a good one at that, but I am told it is not! # > > # > > # > > Automotive Industry Challenge... (We're all doomed, but we could die # > > laughing!) # > > # > > # > > Email circulating around at Ford Motor Co... # > > # > > My neighbor recently attended a breakfast meeting where the speaker/ # > > guest was David E. Cole, Chairman, Center for Automotive Research # > > (CAR). You have all likely heard Cole CAR quoted, or referred to in the # > > auto industry news lately. # > > # > > Mr. Cole, who is an engineer by training, told many stories of the # > > difficulty of working with the folks that the Obama administration has # > > sent to save the auto industry. There have been many meetings where a # > > 30+ year experience automotive expert has to listen to a newcomer to the # > > industry, someone with zero manufacturing experience, zero auto industry # > > experience, zero business experience, zero finance experience, and zero # > > engineering experience, tell them how to run their business. # > > # > > His favorite story is as follows: # > > # > > There was a team of Obama people speaking to Mr. Cole (Engineer, # > > automotive experience 40+ years, Chairman of CAR). They were explaining # > > to Mr. Cole that the auto companies needed to make a car that was # > > electric and liquid natural gas (LNG) with enough combined fuel to go # > > 500 miles so we wouldn't "need" so many gas stations (A whole other # > > topic). They were quoting BTU's of LNG and battery life that they had # > > looked up on some website. # > > # > > Mr. Cole explained that to do this you would need a trunk FULL of # > > batteries and a LNG tank at big as a car to make that happen and that # > > there were problems related to the laws of physics that prevented them # > > from... # > > # > > The Obama person interrupted and said (and I am quoting here) "The laws # > > of physics? Whose rules are those, we need to change that. (Some of # > > the others wrote down the law name so they could look it up). We have # > > the congress and the administration. We can repeal that law, amend it, # > > or use an executive order to get rid of that problem. That's why we are # > > here, to fix these sort of issues". # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:38:11 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: OT: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers (fwd) you trust snopes? ;) especially on a political topic? ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Dan Black wrote: # C'mon, y'all _still_ haven't learned about snopes? ;) # # http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/physics.asp # # (I just went to snopes.com and searched for "obama laws of physics", no # quotes. Exactly one hit.) # # Even in the comment at the end by Dr. Cole, it sounds to me like that # may have been an intentionally silly, sarcastic response. # # Obama is similar to Bush... He gives us plenty of stuff to criticize # and make fun of; there's no need to make stuff up. :P # # john said: # {- also passing this along for verification... :) # {- # {- this may be the same kind of story circulated about clinton and # {- cattle guards in wyoming... hard to say... maybe it's a joke, but # {- the arrogance of many with a liberal mindset defies logic, and # {- the sometimes the laws of physics... ;) # {- # {- john # {- # {- ----- # {- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # {- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # {- http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # {- http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # {- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # {- # {- # {- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- # {- From: "Weigand, Gregory L" # {- # {- Subject: FW: Automotive Industry Challenge...for Engineers # {- # {- Ok I am forwarding this without checking it for authenticity. I'm afraid # {- if I find out this is true I may shoot someone or myself. I just hope # {- it's a joke and a good one at that, but I am told it is not! # {- # {- # {- Automotive Industry Challenge... (We're all doomed, but we could die laughi # {- ng!) # {- # {- # {- Email circulating around at Ford Motor Co... # {- # {- My neighbor recently attended a breakfast meeting where the speaker/ # {- guest was David E. Cole, Chairman, Center for Automotive Research # {- (CAR). You have all likely heard Cole CAR quoted, or referred to in the # {- auto industry news lately. # {- # {- Mr. Cole, who is an engineer by training, told many stories of the # {- difficulty of working with the folks that the Obama administration has # {- sent to save the auto industry. There have been many meetings where a # {- 30+ year experience automotive expert has to listen to a newcomer to the # {- industry, someone with zero manufacturing experience, zero auto industry # {- experience, zero business experience, zero finance experience, and zero # {- engineering experience, tell them how to run their business. # {- # {- His favorite story is as follows: # {- # {- There was a team of Obama people speaking to Mr. Cole (Engineer, # {- automotive experience 40+ years, Chairman of CAR). They were explaining # {- to Mr. Cole that the auto companies needed to make a car that was # {- electric and liquid natural gas (LNG) with enough combined fuel to go # {- 500 miles so we wouldn't "need" so many gas stations (A whole other # {- topic). They were quoting BTU's of LNG and battery life that they had # {- looked up on some website. # {- # {- Mr. Cole explained that to do this you would need a trunk FULL of # {- batteries and a LNG tank at big as a car to make that happen and that # {- there were problems related to the laws of physics that prevented them # {- from... # {- # {- The Obama person interrupted and said (and I am quoting here) "The laws # {- of physics? Whose rules are those, we need to change that. (Some of # {- the others wrote down the law name so they could look it up). We have # {- the congress and the administration. We can repeal that law, amend it, # {- or use an executive order to get rid of that problem. That's why we are # {- here, to fix these sort of issues". # {- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # I went out for pizza. # Then I went to Canada. # -- Martin Bishop/Brice # -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- # ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:27:52 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 10 cars that brought down detroit.. (fwd) lasikeyes wrote: > I was surprised to see #9: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31688479/?pg=9#Biz_Detroit_killers_0907 The author hit the nail on the head as far as the underlying issues: "How did all this happen? There are plenty of potential culprits: management, the unions, the government." (same thing impacting aerospace, mainly unions, tax structure of local governments and excessive outsourcing in response to the first two...) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31688479/?pg=9#Biz_Detroit_killers_0907 I don't think the author was saying the Jeep Cherokee was bad, in fact, its success seems to have contributed to Detroit's failures... because the competitors missed the mark on matching what the Cherokee could do. And of course fuel economy has to factor in... when you read the next one in line, the Ford Explorer, the author points out issues peculiar to the Explorer, but seems to say all 4x4s are as dangerous, which to some extent is true, but especially so for the Explorer, it's handling characteristics, like that of the Bronco II make this a truly frightening vehicle to operate... I like the looks of both models, but having driven a few I wouldn't own one of them on a bet. 1. Chevrolet Vega - no surprise - aluminum block, very prone to rust, very rare car now... 2. Cadillac Cimarron - no surprise - what a piece of junque, a rebadged Cavalier. author also points out the V8 8-6-4 failure, fails to mention the damage GM did to the Diesel market around the same time with the ill-conceived and poorly executed 5.7L Diesel... by the time GM got the 5.7 working well they had so damaged the entire idea of Diesels in America that we still haven't realized how much better they are than gas. 3. Pontiac Aztek - looks like they stacked two vehicles on top of each other... ugly as sin. 4. Chevy Citation - ho hum 5. Dodge Aires - massive quantity of K-car jokes for Red Green... 6. Ford Fairmont - this was a good car when it came out, simple and clean... but they held on too long to it.. 7. Chrysler TC by Maserati - fix it again tony... didn't detroit learn anything? going full circle with the italians... F-i-a-tony... Will they find a suitable buyer for the Jeep line before they totally destroy this historical marque???? 8. see below 9. Ford Explorer - bad design, bad handling, bad tires... unsuspecting gone turtle types... 10. Ford Taurus - not mentioned, horribly bad handling, would fight you in a curve, and a heater core that requires dismantling the entire car if it leaks, which it will because it's plastic... * 8. Jeep Cherokee *Chrysler also spent its cash buying American Motors, for the purpose of acquiring Jeep. Jeep's Wrangler was a well-known entity, but the surprise was the 1984 Cherokee. Sales of the little 4x4 station wagon grew through the 1980s, as more people began to notice it as an alternative to a car. Here was a potential family vehicle that had some style and some attitude. The four-door version quickly outsold the two-door model, and its popularity overshadowed the Ford Bronco II and Chevrolet S-10 Blazer, which were only available as two door models. Conventional wisdom to this point was that customers who bought what were then called "four-wheel drives" were young and, like sport coupe buyers, were more interested in sporty two-door styling than rear-seat practicality. But families discovered the Cherokee and rivals noticed the trend. Ford quickly prepared the four-door Explorer and the industry raced toward its switch to truck sales because the Cherokee saw unexpected demand for a new product -- the SUV. - -- ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3376 **************************