From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Aug 22 00:34:02 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, August 22 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3411 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions fsj: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) Re: xj: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions fsj: Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) fsj: torque converters RE: fsj: Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) RE: fsj: torque converters fsj: Needy 81 J10 Re: fsj: Needy 81 J10 RE: fsj: Needy 81 J10 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:40:05 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions What type of adapter does the D300 have? From: john Subject: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions I have a Dana 300 behind my T19, have a buyer in No. CA for it. will take it down into Oregon early september... my TF727 with the round bellhousing (RV), presumably out of some kind of IH, has that "texas style" adapter and a gear attached... john _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:49:28 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) If someone wants one of those crate motors, there is one with a few miles on it since new, but the computer started acting up (I'm pretty sure it's a messed up MAF sensor because it runs fine warm, cuts out and floods when warmed up then 10 minutes of driving later it runs fine again with the check engine light on bright) It's in an '88 Celebrity, but since it was a crate engine, it should have both mounts on it. That coupled with the fuel injection would make a decent 2.8L powered rig. I agree that the earlier externally balanced motor was built too close to French "bleeding edge" standards. Car is up for $300. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 From: john Subject: Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions yeah, I also found out that on the Jeep Cherokee 2.8L V6 when you replace the crappy 2.8 with a targetmaster version that the new one is internally balanced and you have to remove the weight from the flex plate... that lesson cost me $300 at the local chevy dealer... :( Have I mentioned recently that the 2.8L V6 in a Jeep was the worst engine ever installed in any Jeep? Before any one says the Tornado 230 I'd like to remind them that was an oil quality issue... while I dislike the amc V8s, especially the 360, they weren't that efficient, but not that bad... I dislike the new 3.7L V6, a cut down version of the 4.7 V8, which I believe, if properly maintained with good oil, is the best engine ever put in a Jeep, with the 4.0L a close 2nd, then I'd have to say the 4.2. The 360's were the mainstay and would fall below the 4.2, and even the 2.1L Turbo Diesel... ;) well, that would be a close contest... depending on what you're trying to do... economy, parts costs, or towing... for towing the 360/401/304 are the kings, no doubt. ok, end rant. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:32:14 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: xj: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions not sure what you mean... it's bolted to the Scout T19. ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # What type of adapter does the D300 have? # # # From: john # Subject: Re: fsj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions # # I have a Dana 300 behind my T19, have a buyer in No. CA for it. # will take it down into Oregon early september... # # my TF727 with the round bellhousing (RV), presumably out of some kind # of IH, has that "texas style" adapter and a gear attached... # # john # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. # http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: # WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:35:12 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) jim, that's a FWD engine, is that the same as the RWD engines? even a target master 2.8 is a piece of If they paid me or a friend $300 and we had a dead XJ that needed an engine I wouldn't recommend that to my worst enemy... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # # If someone wants one of those crate motors, there is one with a few miles on it since new, but the computer started acting up (I'm pretty sure it's a messed up MAF sensor because it runs fine warm, cuts out and floods when warmed up then 10 minutes of driving later it runs fine again with the check engine light on bright) # It's in an '88 Celebrity, but since it was a crate engine, it should have both mounts on it. That coupled with the fuel injection would make a decent 2.8L powered rig. # I agree that the earlier externally balanced motor was built too close to French "bleeding edge" standards. # # Car is up for $300. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # From: john # Subject: Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions # # yeah, I also found out that on the Jeep Cherokee 2.8L V6 when you # replace the crappy 2.8 with a targetmaster version that the # new one is internally balanced and you have to remove the # weight from the flex plate... that lesson cost me $300 at # the local chevy dealer... :( # # Have I mentioned recently that the 2.8L V6 in a Jeep was the worst # engine ever installed in any Jeep? # # Before any one says the Tornado 230 I'd like to remind them that # was an oil quality issue... while I dislike the amc V8s, especially # the 360, they weren't that efficient, but not that bad... # # I dislike the new 3.7L V6, a cut down version of the 4.7 V8, which # I believe, if properly maintained with good oil, is the best engine # ever put in a Jeep, with the 4.0L a close 2nd, then I'd have to say # the 4.2. The 360's were the mainstay and would fall below the 4.2, # and even the 2.1L Turbo Diesel... ;) well, that would be a close # contest... depending on what you're trying to do... economy, parts # costs, or towing... for towing the 360/401/304 are the kings, no doubt. # # ok, end rant. # # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. # http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:11:52 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: torque converters started looking at torque converter info for the 727 that will be used behind the SD33T. it appears that the only variable on a Torque Converter is the stall speed... several websites say to find the peak torque and go with a stall speed about 500 rpm or so lower. The AMC 360 V8 and the SD33T appear to be pretty close in their torque curves so I'm thinking that the torque converter out of a Grand Wagoneer should be fine for the SD33T setup, and I'll get a lockup feature as well. I will use the guts from the GW instead of the scout 727. Stall speed is somewhat confusing... copied some of the general guidelines below. Was reading up on how a lockup feature works... Jeeps had these, but there wasn't any noticeable improvement in economy. :) One article cited a 65% improvement in economy at speed... :) here's a few links that might be of interest. http://www.bankspower.com/techarticles/show/10-Understanding-Stall-Speed http://rodcustom.automotive.com/79866/0808rc-torque-converters/index.html http://www.protorque.com/techi/ti_faq.htm http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/0808rc_torque_converters/index.html (very interesting details on the 727): http://books.google.com/books?id=IjnczMjW46QC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=Torqueflite+727++torque+converter&source=bl&ots=1nxsSwXlZJ&sig=sQR7KHNN-nPsG8dUeWqnRv6-v2c&hl=en&ei=v9KMSpjdBYeEswOvg5XdCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=Torqueflite%20727%20%20torque%20converter&f=false pricing: http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=199353 http://www.atlanticspeed.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=5794&idcategory=0#details Some general guidelines for selecting a converter: http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/selectingconverter.html * According to B&M, the stall speed should be rated at about 500-750 RPM under your engine's peak torque RPM. If you don't know this figure, be conservative in your estimate. You don't want to end up with a converter that has too high of a stall speed. Don't be too conservative, though - it is possible to get a converter with too low of a stall speed, which will have roughly the same effect as too high of a stall speed. * Have a good idea of your vehicle's weight. Remember, lighter vehicles will lower the rated stall speed; heavier vehicles will have the opposite effect. * High stall converters generate a lot of extra heat. The installation of an external transmission cooler is mandatory with a higher than stock stall speed converter. Actually, you should have one in there anyway. Heat is the number one killer of transmissions - 85% of all trannies die because of inadequate cooling. Also, using AMSOIL Synthetic ATF has been shown to lower Auto Trans temperatures more than 50 Degrees! I always add a trans cooler and switch to Amsoil atf... sometimes I'll add an oil filter in line. One local tow truck outfit kept burning up Automatics... switched to Amsoil and fixed the problem. They claim it lowered the temp on their transmissions by 75 degrees. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 00:25:37 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) The crate motor should have both mounts. The reason for the 2.8 being such a poor motor was the undersized rod bearings and offset ground crank which were fixed in the later motors. That coupled with the EFI gave the motor an added 50 or so HP that it really needed. (much like the EFI on the 4.0L made it more reliable and powerful than the larger 4.2L) I found an 86 MJ with the 2.8L that I wanted to swap this motor into, but I have far too many projects already > Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:35:12 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net; xj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Re: GM 2.8 V6 (was Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions) > > jim, that's a FWD engine, is that the same as the RWD engines? > > even a target master 2.8 is a piece of > > If they paid me or a friend $300 and we had a dead XJ that needed an engine > I wouldn't recommend that to my worst enemy... > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Jim Blair wrote: > > # > # If someone wants one of those crate motors, there is one with a few miles on it since new, but the computer started acting up (I'm pretty sure it's a messed up MAF sensor because it runs fine warm, cuts out and floods when warmed up then 10 minutes of driving later it runs fine again with the check engine light on bright) > # It's in an '88 Celebrity, but since it was a crate engine, it should have both mounts on it. That coupled with the fuel injection would make a decent 2.8L powered rig. > # I agree that the earlier externally balanced motor was built too close to French "bleeding edge" standards. > # > # Car is up for $300. > # > # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > # > # From: john > # Subject: Re: xj: weddings, Diesels and transmissions > # > # yeah, I also found out that on the Jeep Cherokee 2.8L V6 when you > # replace the crappy 2.8 with a targetmaster version that the > # new one is internally balanced and you have to remove the > # weight from the flex plate... that lesson cost me $300 at > # the local chevy dealer... :( > # > # Have I mentioned recently that the 2.8L V6 in a Jeep was the worst > # engine ever installed in any Jeep? > # > # Before any one says the Tornado 230 I'd like to remind them that > # was an oil quality issue... while I dislike the amc V8s, especially > # the 360, they weren't that efficient, but not that bad... > # > # I dislike the new 3.7L V6, a cut down version of the 4.7 V8, which > # I believe, if properly maintained with good oil, is the best engine > # ever put in a Jeep, with the 4.0L a close 2nd, then I'd have to say > # the 4.2. The 360's were the mainstay and would fall below the 4.2, > # and even the 2.1L Turbo Diesel... ;) well, that would be a close > # contest... depending on what you're trying to do... economy, parts > # costs, or towing... for towing the 360/401/304 are the kings, no doubt. > # > # ok, end rant. > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. > # http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 02:00:32 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: torque converters The other thing to watch out for is the power input vs stall speed. A higher input of power will push the stall speed higher for a given converter. I did a 4 cyl converter in a Chev behind a V8 and the stall speed went from 2500 (4 cyl) to 3500 with the V8 (it gradually got higher as the fins in the converter got bent from the extra back pressure until the motor was redlining and just barely moving) The lockup converter set up may not be drilled into the case you are using. If the GW trans has a lockup valvebody, then you can see where the extra holes were drilled for the fluid to pass through. Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:11:52 -0700 > From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net > To: > Subject: fsj: torque converters > > started looking at torque converter info for the 727 that will be used behind the SD33T. > > it appears that the only variable on a Torque Converter is the stall speed... several > websites say to find the peak torque and go with a stall speed about 500 rpm or so lower. > > The AMC 360 V8 and the SD33T appear to be pretty close in their torque curves so I'm thinking > that the torque converter out of a Grand Wagoneer should be fine for the SD33T setup, and > I'll get a lockup feature as well. I will use the guts from the GW instead of the scout 727. > > Stall speed is somewhat confusing... copied some of the general guidelines below. > > Was reading up on how a lockup feature works... > Jeeps had these, but there wasn't any noticeable improvement in economy. :) One > article cited a 65% improvement in economy at speed... :) > > > here's a few links that might be of interest. > > > http://www.bankspower.com/techarticles/show/10-Understanding-Stall-Speed > > http://rodcustom.automotive.com/79866/0808rc-torque-converters/index.html > > http://www.protorque.com/techi/ti_faq.htm > > http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/0808rc_torque_converters/ind ex.html > > (very interesting details on the 727): > > http://books.google.com/books?id=IjnczMjW46QC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=Torquefli te+727++torque+converter&source=bl&ots=1nxsSwXlZJ&sig=sQR7KHNN-nPsG8dUeWqnRv6 - -v2c&hl=en&ei=v9KMSpjdBYeEswOvg5XdCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10# v=onepage&q=Torqueflite%20727%20%20torque%20converter&f=false > > pricing: > http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=199353 > http://www.atlanticspeed.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=5794&idcate gory=0#details > > > Some general guidelines for selecting a converter: > http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/selectingconverter.html > * According to B&M, the stall speed should be rated at about 500-750 RPM under > your engine's peak torque RPM. If you don't know this figure, be conservative in your > estimate. You don't want to end up with a converter that has too high of a stall speed. > Don't be too conservative, though - it is possible to get a converter with too low of a > stall speed, which will have roughly the same effect as too high of a stall speed. > * Have a good idea of your vehicle's weight. Remember, lighter vehicles will lower the > rated stall speed; heavier vehicles will have the opposite effect. > * High stall converters generate a lot of extra heat. The installation of an external > transmission cooler is mandatory with a higher than stock stall speed converter. > Actually, you should have one in there anyway. Heat is the number one killer of > transmissions - 85% of all trannies die because of inadequate cooling. > > > Also, using AMSOIL Synthetic ATF has been shown to lower Auto Trans temperatures more than 50 Degrees! > I always add a trans cooler and switch to Amsoil atf... sometimes I'll add an oil filter in line. > One local tow truck outfit kept burning up Automatics... switched to Amsoil and fixed the problem. > They claim it lowered the temp on their transmissions by 75 degrees. > > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:57:11 -0700 (PDT) From: JR McNeil Subject: fsj: Needy 81 J10 I assume they ALL have needs unless you're rollin in $$ (right!) and mine is no different. I wondered if anyone has a good passenger side outside rearview mirror. I've seen pics of large ones with a rack and all (maybe after market)...mine is the small one (maybe 6"x2.5"). Is there an after market choice that some of you are happy with? I also need (would like ) a pair of J10 fender emblems. One of mine is still good but 2 would give me a spare. Anyone out there?.........both mirrors is probably a good idea too. Thanks for any leads. Fla flatlander praying for Ga mountains! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:23:30 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Needy 81 J10 you could try bjs offroad, jc whitney... I may have a set of emblems... will take me a while to find them though. not sure how good they'll be... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 20 Aug 2009, JR McNeil wrote: # I assume they ALL have needs unless you're rollin in $$ (right!) and mine is # no different. I wondered if anyone has a good passenger side outside rearview # mirror. I've seen pics of large ones with a rack and all (maybe after # market)...mine is the small one (maybe 6"x2.5"). Is there an after market # choice that some of you are happy with? # # I also need (would like ) a pair of J10 fender emblems. One of mine is still # good but 2 would give me a spare. Anyone out there?.........both mirrors is # probably a good idea too. # # Thanks for any leads. # # Fla flatlander praying for Ga mountains! # # # ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 07:31:25 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: Needy 81 J10 A pict(s) may be useful.... I know that this server does not allow pict... but may be you can give us a link to another website. We are all a bit attention deficit disorderly toward a 4 letter word.... As for aftermarket parts, the chinese chrome is really poor. My new antenna rusted in 6 months.... the last one died because of a tree limb... and the OEM because of a bear encounter. Michel > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:57:11 -0700 > From: preacherfuzz279-at-yahoo.com > Subject: fsj: Needy 81 J10 > To: fsj-at-digest.net > > I assume they ALL have needs unless you're rollin in $$ (right!) and mine is > no different. I wondered if anyone has a good passenger side outside rearview > mirror. I've seen pics of large ones with a rack and all (maybe after > market)...mine is the small one (maybe 6"x2.5"). Is there an after market > choice that some of you are happy with? > > I also need (would like ) a pair of J10 fender emblems. One of mine is still > good but 2 would give me a spare. Anyone out there?.........both mirrors is > probably a good idea too. > > Thanks for any leads. > > Fla flatlander praying for Ga mountains! > > _________________________________________________________________ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackTo School_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3411 **************************