From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Aug 25 10:57:59 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, August 25 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3414 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 RE: fsj: 63 Pickup RE: fsj: 63 Pickup Re: fsj: 63 Pickup Re: fsj: 63 Pickup RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 Re: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:53:50 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 Sounds more like an LPG candidate to me! > Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 06:10:57 -0700 > From: landon.tesar-at-freescale.com > To: wallacem7-at-aol.com; mbalea-at-hotmail.com; carnuck-at-hotmail.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net > > Mike, are you saying you can run 11:1 compression on E85 in a 360 V8 > with a longer stroke? > > Uhhhh, how you do that? > > - Landon > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of > wallacem7-at-aol.com > Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 9:30 PM > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com; carnuck-at-hotmail.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > > Honestly it's been so long since I had a stock motor (Summer of 1994) > and my mindset has changed some over the years, and the Wagoneer's > mission has gone from only vehicle/trail truck to a project vehicle that > may see some trailer pulling duty after it's safe to drive again. I may > do forest service roads, but nothing extreme anymore. > > That being said I don't have a great baseline because I drove the stock > two barrel motor at 7000 feet above sea level almost entirely, rebuilt > the motor with the performer and a vacuum secondary Holley and moved to > sea level,? drove across the country a few times and moved to 500 feet > above sea level and changed to a Carter AFB. I have since moved back to > 7000 feet above sea level, but can't really take the Wag out of the > neighborhood because of a frame rust issue. that being said I never > dialed the Holley in for high altitude but whenever I went over the > mountains I would get a dead spot between only primaries and where the > secondaries would open. the dead spot would start being noticible at > about 4000 feet and get bigger the higher I went up. With the Carter AFB > I definitely got the secondaries open easier (I probably dialed in that > carb better) and through the locking differential I would usually chirp > the tires going into second (on purpose...not 100% necessary). I was al > ways surprised by how much power it did have. it definitely felt more > powerful than my 318 Dakota (3.54 gear and 31x10.50s) versus 360 Wag > with 3.31 gears and 235/75-15s. I could haul a small car on a trailer > pretty well with that set up. there have also been a couple of > transmissions along the way, the best one being a salvage yard trans > that feels like a trailer tow trans...it has very solid shifts...I think > it's out of an 85, but I don't really know any more about it. There are > a few other mods in the engine too...three angle valve grind, > performance cam, the block has been shaved, the heads have been shaved, > I have had various exhausts including dual Cherry Bombs and a single > Flowmaster,? few other things I can't remember so I don't have an apples > to apples comparison. > > I want to say that I remember the number of 3200 RPM at highway speed > also giving about 13 MPG. I could look it up as i have written down > every tank of gas that I have purchased since 1995. I think I would > drive about 70 to 75 on the highway. Above 80 it takes more effort to > keep in a lane. > > at 346,000 miles I'd be inclined to rebuild the engine as a unit after > it is worn out. I'd suspect that the cam has lost a lot of it's profile, > the timing chain likely has some slack it it, and the compression may > not be what it was. > > If I were to build one today I'd get a 401 crank, offset grind it for a > 3.8 inch stroke, go with 11 or 12:1 pistons, forged rods, port the stock > iron heads, set a mild street cam for low end torque, balance > everything, and then run an E-85 carburetor to deal with the octane > issues. As one vehicle out of a fleet that varies from 4 to 6 the > expense of fuel injection is too high.? > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Balea > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com; wallacem7-at-aol.com; fsjdigest digest > > Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2009 7:03 pm > Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With 346Kmiles on my OEM 360, I cannot complain. Especially after the > EGR failed and I had to Temporarily drive without it last week until it > is available from the Jeep dealership..... It is back ordered...? I must > say that it has been running really well on my sierra trip last week. > > So the next step is probably to put one of my spare 2150 to help power > when going above 5000'. And as the intake manifold rubber gaskets have > been oozing for a while, the performer seemed like a good idea until the > AF clearance issues are mentioned. > > Is the performer a big improvement?? with my 2.67 gearing, I barely go > above 2500rpm which is about 70 mph to prevent dipping below 13mpg. > > Michel > > So what are the shorter Air filter assembly choices? > > -clip- > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON: WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:01:45 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: 63 Pickup It's ifs.I called about it before > Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 23:04:08 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: joe-at-j-hughes.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: 63 Pickup > > handsome looking, like that two tone color scheme... > missing a few parts... like bumpers... > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Sun, 23 Aug 2009, Joe wrote: > > # http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/1338050157.html > # > # > # > # > # > # Joe Hughes > # > # Everett, WA > # > # 22 Willys-Overland Touring > # > # 49 Willys pickup, Cummins 3.9L 4bt on a 74 Cherokee chassis > # > # 50 Willys Wagon, Buick 231 V6 (Wife's) > # > # 64 Mercedes S220 Sedan (For Sale) > # > # 88 Honda CBR-600 > # > # 94 BMW 540i e34 6-spd 4.0L > # > # 95 Dodge 2500 6bt, 47RH > # > # 00 JGC Ltd. 4.7L > # _________________________________________________________________ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackTo School_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:15:11 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: 63 Pickup really, wow... that's really rare then... dang, if I were only rich, good looking, smart and had a big barn... well, two outta four ain't bad... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # It's ifs.I called about it before # # > Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 23:04:08 -0700 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: joe-at-j-hughes.com # > CC: fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: Re: fsj: 63 Pickup # > # > handsome looking, like that two tone color scheme... # > missing a few parts... like bumpers... # > # > john # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Sun, 23 Aug 2009, Joe wrote: # > # > # http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/1338050157.html # > # # > # # > # # > # # > # # > # Joe Hughes # > # # > # Everett, WA # > # # > # 22 Willys-Overland Touring # > # # > # 49 Willys pickup, Cummins 3.9L 4bt on a 74 Cherokee chassis # > # # > # 50 Willys Wagon, Buick 231 V6 (Wife's) # > # # > # 64 Mercedes S220 Sedan (For Sale) # > # # > # 88 Honda CBR-600 # > # # > # 94 BMW 540i e34 6-spd 4.0L # > # # > # 95 Dodge 2500 6bt, 47RH # > # # > # 00 JGC Ltd. 4.7L # > # # # _________________________________________________________________ # Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. # http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackTo # School_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:20:21 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: 63 Pickup john said: {- really, wow... that's really rare then... dang, if I were only rich, good lo {- oking, smart {- and had a big barn... well, two outta four ain't bad... You're rich and have a big barn? I didn't know either of those! ;) (Hey, you completely set yourself up for that one.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants. -- A. Whitney Brown - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:15:59 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 63 Pickup yes I did... had an uncle who would was the master of wise cracks... he had one that I still remember... he'd say.... so and so, you know a little bit of everything, and a whole lot of nothing... :) I always like the comment... if someone says so and so is funny, well, looks ain't everything you know... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Dan Black wrote: # john said: # {- really, wow... that's really rare then... dang, if I were only rich, good lo # {- oking, smart # {- and had a big barn... well, two outta four ain't bad... # # You're rich and have a big barn? I didn't know either of those! # # ;) (Hey, you completely set yourself up for that one.) # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; # I am a vegetarian because I hate plants. # -- A. Whitney Brown # -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 00:52:50 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 From: carnuck My hearing has also gotten to the point that I have to rely on knock sensors to check timing for me. It's easy enough to add one with an LED light circuit to many motors. That would allow you to adjust for other changes. RE: Hummm, any more specs on that set up? knock sensor off an XJ... then I guess we need to know the ohm value corresponding to the knock..... My old Mopar was set up with an in car timing adjustment that I did with a cable on the dash. RE: the citroen traction AV had it, I never bothered to look at it for the month I drove the car. Michel _________________________________________________________________ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackTo School_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 23:43:05 -0400 From: wallacem7-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 Couple of ways to get more compression. If I was going with that much compression I'd want forged pistons, but I'd also expect some head work. Definitely porting, and possibly some combustion chamber work. A 401 crank can be offset ground so that even in a 360 block you'll end up with over 400 cubic inches. Rods would be selected to match the rest of the motor. The way you do this is with the checkbook. There are guys out there who are building AMC engines for racing who know what works and what doesn't. You explain to them what you are planning to do and then you write a bunch of checks. There are guys building 401's that can see 7000 RPM. The E-85 would just be an experiment. I know you can build big power with it. Ideally you could get rid of some of the low compression gasoline engine smell as well. The idea is to have something that will be comfortable with a 5000 lb trailer behind it at high elevation. Some of the racing car guys I know say the E-85 is fine up to 14:1 compression which I think would make an engine a little too high strung for the street. As of right now I have to attack the Wag with the MIG welder. Planning on that this winter. Mark Wallace 81 Wagoneer - -----Original Message----- From: Tesar Landon-R16884 To: wallacem7-at-aol.com; mbalea-at-hotmail.com; carnuck-at-hotmail.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 7:10 am Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 Mike, are you saying you can run 11:1 compression on E85 in a 360 V8 with a longer stroke? Uhhhh, how you do that? - - Landon - -clip- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 23:07:13 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 I prefer the 304 with 17 mpg empty and 14 loaded WITHOUT an overdrive! (can't wait to see how it does with the AW4!) Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:48:37 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: proj96xj-at-bellsouth.net > CC: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > > for towing the 360 is a good engine... if you don't > care about economy... my 4.7 pulls the same load effortlessly > and still gives me 13 to 14 mpg or better... my best 360 > without a load would barely do 12... almost 13 once... towing > a 4.0L up from Oregon I got 12.75 mpg... > > towing a heavier load, trailer and bigger engine back from Idaho > with the 4.7 I got at least 14, and 16 pulling down to centralia... > > if it weren't for all the computers associated with the 4.7 it would > be a superb swap for an FSJ... there's probably 1,000lbs difference > between an SJ and a WJ... > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Sun, 23 Aug 2009, Neal Hoover wrote: > > # iirc, i think there is a "deep dish" filter housing bottom that you can put > # on those things. it arcs downward from the carb intake mounting surface and > # covers up more of the carb than the stock bottom plate. > # should solve the problem. > # > # all this bashing of the AMC motors, and i *still* haven't gotten the chance > # to put my freshly rebuilt and mildly warmed 360 through its paces! too many > # other projects keep pushing the J-truck to the back burner. > # :( > # > # > # Neal A. Hoover > # Project '76 J-10 > # Project '96 XJ > # http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj > # > # > # ----- Original Message ----- > # From: "Jim Blair" > # To: ; > # Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 8:16 PM > # Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > # > # > # > Oops! On the air cleaner, I put a shorter filter in mine. Body lift will > # work > # > too > # > > # > > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > # > > Subject: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > # > > Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:41:45 -0400 > # > > From: wallacem7-at-aol.com > # > > > # > > Is anybody else running an Edelbrock Performer intake manifold with the > # > stock air cleaner housing? My hood hits the air cleaner lid? and always > # > appears high in the back along the windshield/air intake fence line. I > # have > # > had this issue with both a Holley and a Carter carburetor. Has anybody > # seen > # > this issue go away with a mild body lift? > # > > > # > > I have to come to the defense of the AMC 360 engine on account of this > # > engine has served me very well. It's got some good features like the high > # > nickle content block, and a decent head design. It's oiling system was a > # weak > # > spot, but it's a decent revving engine. As long as you keep it in decent > # oil > # > it's durability is very good. I think it's efficiency issues are largely > # > related to it being an 8.25:1 compression engine. Low Compression V-8s > # were > # > one of the things that brought Detroit down. One of the many things under > # the > # > heading "failure to modernize" Some of the magazines have built these > # engines > # > up...not as cheap or as easy to get power out of as a Chevy, but not too > # bad > # > either. They seem to respond to big compression well. > # > > > # > > One of these days maybe I'll build myself a big compression AMC V-8 > # > > > # > > Mark Wallace > # > > # > _________________________________________________________________ > # > Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. > # > > # http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackTo > # > School_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 > # _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail. is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM _HYGN_faster:082009 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:55:12 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 If I nurse the throttle and get rid of the 2" lift I could probably get back to the 17mpg w the 360. Seriously, what is the other alternate powertrain beside diesel..... A friend had planned the GM 4.3 V6 that is (was) in the astrovan.... Michel > From: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > To: john-at-wagoneers.com; proj96xj-at-bellsouth.net > CC: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 23:07:13 -0700 > > I prefer the 304 with 17 mpg empty and 14 loaded WITHOUT an overdrive! (can't > wait to see how it does with the AW4!) > > Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > > > > > > Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:48:37 -0700 > > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > > To: proj96xj-at-bellsouth.net > > CC: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > > Subject: Re: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > > > > for towing the 360 is a good engine... if you don't > > care about economy... my 4.7 pulls the same load effortlessly > > and still gives me 13 to 14 mpg or better... my best 360 > > without a load would barely do 12... almost 13 once... towing > > a 4.0L up from Oregon I got 12.75 mpg... > > > > towing a heavier load, trailer and bigger engine back from Idaho > > with the 4.7 I got at least 14, and 16 pulling down to centralia... > > > > if it weren't for all the computers associated with the 4.7 it would > > be a superb swap for an FSJ... there's probably 1,000lbs difference > > between an SJ and a WJ... > > > > john > > > > > > > > ----- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Sun, 23 Aug 2009, Neal Hoover wrote: > > > > # iirc, i think there is a "deep dish" filter housing bottom that you can > put > > # on those things. it arcs downward from the carb intake mounting surface > and > > # covers up more of the carb than the stock bottom plate. > > # should solve the problem. > > # > > # all this bashing of the AMC motors, and i *still* haven't gotten the > chance > > # to put my freshly rebuilt and mildly warmed 360 through its paces! too > many > > # other projects keep pushing the J-truck to the back burner. > > # :( > > # > > # > > # Neal A. Hoover > > # Project '76 J-10 > > # Project '96 XJ > > # http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj > > # > > # > > # ----- Original Message ----- > > # From: "Jim Blair" > > # To: ; > > # Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 8:16 PM > > # Subject: RE: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > > # > > # > > # > Oops! On the air cleaner, I put a shorter filter in mine. Body lift > will > > # work > > # > too > > # > > > # > > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > > # > > Subject: fsj: In defence of the AMC 360 > > # > > Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:41:45 -0400 > > # > > From: wallacem7-at-aol.com > > # > > > > # > > Is anybody else running an Edelbrock Performer intake manifold with > the > > # > stock air cleaner housing? My hood hits the air cleaner lid? and > always > > # > appears high in the back along the windshield/air intake fence line. I > > # have > > # > had this issue with both a Holley and a Carter carburetor. Has anybody > > # seen > > # > this issue go away with a mild body lift? > > # > > > > # > > I have to come to the defense of the AMC 360 engine on account of > this > > # > engine has served me very well. It's got some good features like the > high > > # > nickle content block, and a decent head design. It's oiling system was > a > > # weak > > # > spot, but it's a decent revving engine. As long as you keep it in > decent > > # oil > > # > it's durability is very good. I think it's efficiency issues are > largely > > # > related to it being an 8.25:1 compression engine. Low Compression V-8s > > # were > > # > one of the things that brought Detroit down. One of the many things > under > > # the > > # > heading "failure to modernize" Some of the magazines have built these > > # engines > > # > up...not as cheap or as easy to get power out of as a Chevy, but not > too > > # bad > > # > either. They seem to respond to big compression well. > > # > > > > # > > One of these days maybe I'll build myself a big compression AMC V-8 > > # > > > > # > > Mark Wallace > > # > > > # > _________________________________________________________________ > > # > Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. > > # > > > # > http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackTo > > # > School_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 > > # > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail. is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM > _HYGN_faster:082009 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail. is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM _HYGN_faster:082009 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3414 **************************