From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Sep 28 12:31:35 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, September 28 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3434 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Introduction and question RE: fsj: Introduction and question RE: fsj: Introduction and question Re: fsj: Introduction and question fsj: C4C list Re: fsj: C4C list fsj: the total loss of Jeeps - cfc fsj: raw numbers on Jeeps, by years Re: fsj: the total loss of Jeeps - cfc Re: fsj: the total loss of Jeeps - cfc FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:01:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Travis Hughey Subject: fsj: Introduction and question Hello everyone. I am brand new to this list and am in the process of purchasing a 1990 Grand Wagoneer. The engine is bad and it has been used as a parts vehicle for another restoration but very few pieces have actually been taken. It's missing the grill, radiator and a couple minor AC parts. Otherwise the vehicle is in great shape with the body intact (no rust or dents) and interior complete with little wear and tear. The thing I want to do is convert this to diesel and the only one I have here is a 6.9 from a previous work truck. The 6.9 I have would need to be freshened up but it never let me down and was one of the most reliable engines I have ever owned. The weight of the engine is 870 Lbs though and a couple hundred more than the stock engine. One of the things I am wondering is whether the front axle will handle the weight. I know I can beef up the springs and all but the axle is what I am primarily wondering about as far as suspension. The other issue I will have is adapting the transmission to the engine or I was also wondering if the C6 behind the diesel engine will bolt to the transfer case and go that route. Any experience you all may have and insight would be greatly appreciated. It will be a daily driver for us as a family but I have no problem lifting the body or suspension as needed to make it all work. I will also be running this on veg oil as I have a massive amount of it to work with and it would be a shame not to use it. Trav. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:16:25 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Introduction and question I like the 6.9 and 7.3 (not so great for economy, but great for power and longevity) but you'll need the beef the front frame a bit to keep it from cracking. The Dana 44 will be fine with the diesel (it's pretty much the same as the Ford D44) and can even be upgraded to 8 lug brakes if you put the F series Sterling or D61 rear axle in. Is the C6 already 4x4? If so, a NP208F will work with it in the Grand Wagoneer with trans mount mods. (if it's 31 spline like the Bronco one I'm selling) The body will probably need a 2 or 3 inch lift to make it fit. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:01:35 -0700 > From: kenyahugheys-at-yahoo.com > Subject: fsj: Introduction and question > To: fsj-at-digest.net > > Hello everyone. > I am brand new to this list and am in the process of purchasing a 1990 Grand > Wagoneer. The engine is bad and it has been used as a parts vehicle for > another restoration but very few pieces have actually been taken. It's > missing the grill, radiator and a couple minor AC parts. Otherwise the > vehicle is in great shape with the body intact (no rust or dents) and interior > complete with little wear and tear. The thing I want to do is convert this to > diesel and the only one I have here is a 6.9 from a previous work truck. The > 6.9 I have would need to be freshened up but it never let me down and was one > of the most reliable engines I have ever owned. The weight of the engine is > 870 Lbs though and a couple hundred more than the stock engine. One of the > things I am wondering is whether the front axle will handle the weight. I > know I can beef up the springs and all but the axle is what I am primarily > wondering about as far as suspension. The other > issue I will have is adapting the transmission to the engine or I was also > wondering if the C6 behind the diesel engine will bolt to the transfer case > and go that route. Any experience you all may have and insight would be > greatly appreciated. It will be a daily driver for us as a family but I have > no problem lifting the body or suspension as needed to make it all work. I > will also be running this on veg oil as I have a massive amount of it to work > with and it would be a shame not to use it. > > Trav. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail. has ever-growing storage! Don^Rt worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial _Storage_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 20:50:57 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Introduction and question <251147.23961.qm-at-web56701.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 I would add 2 crossmembers to the frame (fore and aft of the axle) with an = extra plate on the inside where the mounts are and beef the springs somewha= t.=A0=A0=A0=20 =A0=A0 I just did the leaf beef up on my '82 Spirit (used all but the main = leaf from the Eagle wagon I got the diff and springs from. I had the Eagle = springs all in before=2C but it hit the rear shackle against the bumper bra= ckets and bounced like an old fashioned baby buggy!) =A0=A0 Now my car looks like an SX4 from the back and I hope to get to the = front soon=2C but at least it can be driven this winter! =A0=20 Jim Blair=2C Lynnwood=2C WA '87 Comanche=2C '83 Jeep J10=2C '84 Jeep J10 ________________________________ > Date: Sun=2C 27 Sep 2009 19:22:36 -0700 > From: kenyahugheys-at-yahoo.com > Subject: RE: fsj: Introduction and question > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > > Thanks for the info. > > The trans is not a 4x4 unit but I am wondering if it can be made into one= by removing the tailshaft assembly and installing a transfer case. Also=2C= on the beefing up the frame bit=2C is there any info out there on how to d= o this (for instance=2C where to either box the frame or add plates and suc= h). FYI=2C I have done marine repair and metal fabrication as a profession = (before getting into mission work) so the whole gearhead/metal fab thing is= something I am very comfortable with. This is just my first 4x4 project. > > > > Trav. > > --- On Sun=2C 9/27/09=2C Jim Blair wrote: > > > From: Jim Blair > Subject: RE: fsj: Introduction and question > To: kenyahugheys-at-yahoo.com=2C "local Jeep list" > Date: Sunday=2C September 27=2C 2009=2C 9:16 PM > > > I like the 6.9 and 7.3 (not so great for economy=2C but great for power a= nd > longevity) but you'll need the beef the front frame a bit to keep it from > cracking. The Dana 44 will be fine with the diesel (it's pretty much the = same > as the Ford D44) and can even be upgraded to 8 lug brakes if you put the = F > series Sterling or D61 rear axle in. > Is the C6 already 4x4? If so=2C a NP208F will work with it in the Grand > Wagoneer with trans mount mods. (if it's 31 spline like the Bronco one I'= m > selling) The body will probably need a 2 or 3 inch lift to make it fit. > > Jim Blair=2C Lynnwood=2C WA '87 Comanche=2C '83 Jeep J10=2C '84 Jeep J10 > > > > >> Date: Sun=2C 27 Sep 2009 17:01:35 -0700 >> From: kenyahugheys-at-yahoo.com >> Subject: fsj: Introduction and question >> To: > fsj-at-digest.net >> >> Hello everyone. >> I am brand new to this list and am in the process of purchasing a 1990 > Grand >> Wagoneer. The engine is bad and it has been used as a parts vehicle for >> another restoration but very few pieces have actually been taken. It's >> missing the grill=2C radiator and a couple minor AC parts. Otherwise the >> vehicle is in great shape with the body intact (no rust or dents) and > interior >> complete with little wear and tear. The thing I want to do is convert th= is > to >> diesel and the only one I have here is a 6.9 from a previous work truck. > The >> 6.9 I have would need to be freshened up but it never let me down and wa= s > one >> of the most reliable engines I have ever owned. The weight of the engine > is >> 870 Lbs > though and a couple hundred more than the stock engine. One of the >> things I am wondering is whether the front axle will handle the weight. = I >> know I can beef up the springs and all but the axle is what I am primari= ly >> wondering about as far as suspension. The other >> issue I will have is adapting the transmission to the engine or I was al= so >> wondering if the C6 behind the diesel engine will bolt to the transfer c= ase >> and go that route. Any experience you all may have and insight would be >> greatly appreciated. It will be a daily driver for us as a family but I > have >> no problem lifting the body or suspension as needed to make it all work.= I >> will also be running this on veg oil as I have a massive amount of it to > work >> with and it would be a shame not to use it. >> >> Trav. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail. has ever-growing storage! Dont worry about storage limits. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tu= torial > _Storage_062009 > > =0A= _________________________________________________________________=0A= Hotmail=AE has ever-growing storage! Don=92t worry about storage limits.=0A= http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tuto= rial_Storage_062009= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:41:21 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Introduction and question biggest concern will be the length of the engine/trans/xfr and clearing the tank... a body lift will help, height wise. a 6.2/700r4 with the stock xfr case barely cleared the tank on my '91. the 6.9 weighs about 220 lbs more than a 6.2 from the sounds of it, not a big deal... you could relocate your batteries to the rear to save some weight on the front. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 27 Sep 2009, Travis Hughey wrote: # Hello everyone. # I am brand new to this list and am in the process of purchasing a 1990 Grand # Wagoneer. The engine is bad and it has been used as a parts vehicle for # another restoration but very few pieces have actually been taken. It's # missing the grill, radiator and a couple minor AC parts. Otherwise the # vehicle is in great shape with the body intact (no rust or dents) and interior # complete with little wear and tear. The thing I want to do is convert this to # diesel and the only one I have here is a 6.9 from a previous work truck. The # 6.9 I have would need to be freshened up but it never let me down and was one # of the most reliable engines I have ever owned. The weight of the engine is # 870 Lbs though and a couple hundred more than the stock engine. One of the # things I am wondering is whether the front axle will handle the weight. I # know I can beef up the springs and all but the axle is what I am primarily # wondering about as far as suspension. The other # issue I will have is adapting the transmission to the engine or I was also # wondering if the C6 behind the diesel engine will bolt to the transfer case # and go that route. Any experience you all may have and insight would be # greatly appreciated. It will be a daily driver for us as a family but I have # no problem lifting the body or suspension as needed to make it all work. I # will also be running this on veg oil as I have a massive amount of it to work # with and it would be a shame not to use it. # # Trav. # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:02:24 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: C4C list Michel Balea said: {- Interested in knowing what was traded in the C4C.... jeep is on page {- 84-85 63167 Exlorers. I was just going to say "tens of thousands", but I just had to add them up. Thousands and thousands of Windstars. (And Caravans/V/T&C and Astros, thank goodness.) 613 Mark VIIIs -- but only two from '96. ;) Several hundred Camaros, and even 131 Corvettes. I don't see any H2s (also looked for "Hummer"). I don't believe for a second that none of those were traded in. I wonder how they're listed. One Rolls Royce. Six Maseratis. Only one Corolla, and three Accords, and one Geo? Must be because of the requirement for the new car to get x mpg better. ... And the Jeeps... 6612 Cherokee 2wds, 19744 Cherokee 4wds, 112 XJ Wagoneers (unreported 2wd/4wd), 32 XJ Wagoneer 2wds, 1882 XJ Wagoneer 4wds (listed under Cherokee/Wagoneer AND plain Wagoneer); total 28382 XJs. Plus 523 Comanches. 4114 ZJ 2wds + 19689 ZJ 4wds = 23803 ZJs 1915 WJ 2wds + 5332 WJ 4wds = 7247 WJs 3 WK 4wds total: 31053 Grand Cherokees -- even more than the XJs!! Maybe that's because a bunch of XJs were already scrapped or are still being held for beater/work trucks. While the Grand Cheros were being used as daily drivers and family vehicles and are being traded for something new. Still, that's a lot of XJs _and_ Grand Cheros. 92 undeclared GWags (probably 4wd... were they ever available 2wd?), 338 GWag 4wds; total 430 GWags. 20 J-10s and J-20s, so 450 FSJs. 85 CJ7s, 701 Liberties (what the heck is a "Liberty/Cherokee"? - anyway, I lumped them in with Liberties), 45 unlisted, 3761 Wranglers. Total Jeeps: 65000 exactly, unless I mistyped in the calculator. Sad. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of the ignorant. -- A.B. Alcott A man doesn't know what he knows until he knows what he doesn't know. -- Laurence Peter - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:44:55 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: C4C list the KJ liberty was exported as a Cherokee... the dimwits at D-C assumed that the public would love that ugly little IFS gutless box and it would replace the real jeep, the Cherokee... that was their plan... hence, liberty/cherokee... look on a website for jeep in australia or europe, you'll see "cherokee" listed and will find that butt ugly cross between the worst benz and worst jeep every built... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 28 Sep 2009, Dan Black wrote: # 85 CJ7s, 701 Liberties (what the heck is a "Liberty/Cherokee"? - anyway, # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:54:05 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: the total loss of Jeeps - cfc read it and weep... it wouldn't be so bad if the newer engines could have been used to upgrade older vehicles... a friend did the math... I cleaned up his list as follows: Jeeps: ========================= XJ/MJ Cherokees: ========================= 6,612 Cherokee 2wds, 19,744 Cherokee 4wds, 112 XJ Wagoneers (2wd/4wd), 32 XJ Wagoneer 2wds, 1,882 XJ Wagoneer 4wds (Cherokee/Wagoneer, Wagoneer); - -------------------------- 28,382 XJs 523 Comanches. (MJs) - -------------------------- 28,905 XJ + MJ ========================= GRAND CHEROKEES (ZJ + WJ + WK) ========================= ZJ Grand Cherokees ========================= 4,114 ZJ 2wds 19,689 ZJ 4wds - --------------------------- 23,803 ZJs ========================= WJ Grand Cherokees ========================= 1,915 WJ 2wds 5,332 WJ 4wds - --------------------------- 7,247 WJs ========================= WK Grand Cherokees ========================= 3 WK 4wds - --------------------------- 31,053 Grand Cherokees ========================= FULL SIZE JEEPS (SJ) ========================= 430 Grand Wagoneers 20 J-10s and J-20s - --------------------------- 450 SJs ========================= CJ/YJ/other jeeps ========================= 85 CJ7s 3,761 Wranglers 45 unlisted ========================= KJ Liberty (export Cherokee) ========================= 701 Liberties - ------------------------------------------------ Total Jeeps: 65,000 fwiw: 63,167 Ford Explorers (thank you Dan Black for totaling this up)- Mon Sep 28, 2009 ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:01:23 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: raw numbers on Jeeps, by years CJ7 1985 48 1986 30 CJ7 4WD 1984 7 Cherokee 2WD 1987 78 1988 158 1989 185 1990 139 1991 191 1992 330 1993 516 1994 631 1995 701 1996 1,075 1997 508 1998 765 1999 634 2000 374 2001 327 Cherokee 4WD 1990 732 1991 950 1992 1,249 1993 1,348 1994 1,408 1995 2,033 1996 3,116 1997 1,455 1998 2,442 1999 2,165 2000 1,910 2001 936 Cherokee/Wagoneer 1985 112 Cherokee/Wagoneer 2WD 1986 32 1984 14 1986 126 1987 311 1988 565 Cherokee/Wagoneer 4WD 1989 791 1986 19 1987 37 Comanche 2WD 1988 67 1986 31 1987 39 Comanche 4WD 1988 69 1989 81 1990 34 1991 27 1992 13 Comanche Pickup 2WD 1993 1 1989 46 1990 25 1991 20 1992 12 Comanche Pickup 4WD 1993 2 1993 261 1994 448 1995 535 1996 883 1997 994 Grand Cherokee 2WD 1998 993 1999 635 2000 660 2001 370 2002 187 2003 41 2004 22 1993 2,380 1994 2,929 1995 3,689 1996 3,935 1997 3,609 1998 3,147 1999 2,289 2000 1,609 2001 854 2002 448 2003 81 2004 51 2005 2 Grand Cherokee 4WD 2006 1 1985 39 Grand Wagoneer 1986 53 1984 10 1987 73 1988 88 1989 94 1990 39 Grand Wagoneer 4WD 1991 34 J-10 Pickup 4WD 1984 3 1985 3 J-10 Pickup Truck 1986 2 1987 4 J-10 Pickup Truck 4WD 1988 4 J-20 Pickup Truck 1986 1 J-20 Pickup Truck 4WD 1987 1 1988 2 Liberty 2WD 2002 169 Liberty 4WD 2002 359 2003 39 2004 13 Liberty/Cherokee 2WD 2005 4 2003 93 2004 23 Liberty/Cherokee 4WD 2005 1 1985 1 1986 1 1987 2 1988 2 1989 1 1993 4 1994 1 1995 6 1996 6 1997 11 1998 1 1999 4 2000 2 2001 1 UNLISTED 2002 1 Wagoneer 4WD 1990 32 Wagoneer Limited 4WD 1989 43 1987 132 1988 136 1989 235 1990 203 1991 226 1992 254 1993 303 1994 433 Wrangler 4WD 1995 632 1997 402 1998 339 1999 189 2000 130 2001 46 2002 20 Wrangler/TJ 4WD 2003 4 2004 2 ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:12:38 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: the total loss of Jeeps - cfc diesel john said: {- it wouldn't be so bad if the newer engines could have been used to upgrade o {- lder vehicles... I can't remember... Are they actually forbidden from taking the engines out, or is it just that most junkyards don't bother? I was at least happier when I found out (a) they can take most of the parts off and sell them at junkyards; they just have to have them off and the main vehicle crushed within x weeks; and (b) there was a year range limit, so no real classics were eligible. Nothing before 1984, apparently (25 years). No FSJ Cherokees or Wagoneers, no FSJ 401s, no '69 Mustangs/Chargers/Challengers/Camaros/Wagoneers, no classic Vettes, no Model Ts. Although I almost wish they allowed stuff back through the late '70s. Then you get into more of the crappy fuel crisis cars, which were often underpowered, too small, ugly, and more carbs. Most of the ones being junked at least had fuel injection. What they should really do (but will never happen) is fund something so we could replace, say, the tired engines and 3-speed autos in our FSJs with modern drive trains. People still wouldn't want to touch the real classics, which they like to keep all-original, but would be great for those of us who like old SJs but would love to get a modern, strong, reliable, good-mileage engine and transmission in there. I still dream of a day when they can take all of the classic drivetrain out, put in a big compartment for batteries, put electric motors on the wheels, and only have a few wires in between. {- a friend did the math... I cleaned up his list as follows: And, again, I didn't actually plug them into a spreadsheet or anything; typed them into a calculator (dc on unix) manually, so there _could_ be errors. If you want something more official -- well, the original document said it wasn't final verified official numbers anyway, but still, add them up yourself for anything important. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Missing" socks don't disappear at all. Socks go through a chrysalis stage, one sock inside another, while you're asleep at night. Then the inside sock emerges, just before you wake up, as a metal coat hanger. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:31:13 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: the total loss of Jeeps - cfc from what I understood they were prohibited from selling the engines, or the entire chassis... they had to destroy the engines... recall the earlier articles I sent talking about that stuff that seized engines? that a few parts could be had are good news... still foolish... think of how many newer engines could have been retrofitted in our older rigs for improved economy/emissions. they weren't thinking... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 28 Sep 2009, Dan Black wrote: # diesel john said: # {- it wouldn't be so bad if the newer engines could have been used to upgrade o # {- lder vehicles... # # I can't remember... Are they actually forbidden from taking the engines # out, or is it just that most junkyards don't bother? # # I was at least happier when I found out (a) they can take most of the # parts off and sell them at junkyards; they just have to have them off # and the main vehicle crushed within x weeks; and (b) there was a year # range limit, so no real classics were eligible. Nothing before 1984, # apparently (25 years). No FSJ Cherokees or Wagoneers, no FSJ 401s, no # '69 Mustangs/Chargers/Challengers/Camaros/Wagoneers, no classic Vettes, # no Model Ts. # # Although I almost wish they allowed stuff back through the late '70s. # Then you get into more of the crappy fuel crisis cars, which were often # underpowered, too small, ugly, and more carbs. Most of the ones being # junked at least had fuel injection. # # What they should really do (but will never happen) is fund something so # we could replace, say, the tired engines and 3-speed autos in our FSJs # with modern drive trains. People still wouldn't want to touch the real # classics, which they like to keep all-original, but would be great for # those of us who like old SJs but would love to get a modern, strong, # reliable, good-mileage engine and transmission in there. # # I still dream of a day when they can take all of the classic drivetrain # out, put in a big compartment for batteries, put electric motors on the # wheels, and only have a few wires in between. # # {- a friend did the math... I cleaned up his list as follows: # # And, again, I didn't actually plug them into a spreadsheet or anything; # typed them into a calculator (dc on unix) manually, so there _could_ be # errors. If you want something more official -- well, the original # document said it wasn't final verified official numbers anyway, but # still, add them up yourself for anything important. # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # "Missing" socks don't disappear at all. Socks go through a chrysalis # stage, one sock inside another, while you're asleep at night. Then the # inside sock emerges, just before you wake up, as a metal coat hanger. # -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3434 **************************