From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Oct 2 11:13:15 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, October 2 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3439 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: fsj: 360 manifold tech, and tech drawings Re: fsj: J truck body specs RE: fsj: 360 manifold tech, and tech drawings fsj: Re: off-road Sausage assault (fwd) RE: fsj: J truck body specs FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 15:09:08 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: 360 manifold tech, and tech drawings Very nice bits of information. We need to gather those memorabilia pieces. I like the reversed CAD..... The funny part is that the 74 exhaust manifold is still tight w 346xxxmiles... and I have never touched it since I bought it in 1983. The trany is still tight, except the o-ring at the modulator. And the intake manifold rubber gasket are starting to get wet, I know that i need to use RTV next time. Michel > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: 360 manifold tech, and tech drawings > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:10:11 -0400 > From: wallacem7-at-aol.com > > If you live with a 360 for any period of time the exhaust manifolds do loosen up...but it's a phase that we go through. (not entirely unlike the phase where we don't realize that one of the front cover bolts goes into an oil galley and we can't figure out why we always have an oil leak near the oil pump) Another phase is fighting with the rear window...I have a pretty good fix that eliminates the stupid clips on that as well more on that later. > > Anyway here is my experience and what I have actually had a lot of success with. What I was told once is that the origional hollow bolts are only hollow in case you need to drill them out. I actually managed to break off a screw extractor in one some years back. What I eventually did was pull the head, drill a bunch of the metal around the bolt away,? weld up the hole with a MIG welder and then re-drill and re-tap the hole, but that is neither here nor there. I have used Fel-Pro Gaskets for years with good results. No RTV or anything.? So fast forward to the last time I had the heads off the Wag I was going to pay an arm and a leg for the proper OEM bolts and the guy at the AMC place (who was rude to me on the phone) told me that i didn't need the hollow bolts. Now, the head/ exhaust manifold is too hot for thread-locker to survive (I am a heavy user of thread locker) so I did what we did at Chrysler to keep bolts from backing out...I buggered up the threads before I ran the bolts in. I can't recall if I crimped a section in the vice, hit them with a ball been hammer, or just crimped them with vice grips, but I did it up the threads a little ways so that the bolts would start easily. Well they don't back out anymore. Another thing that I did was I used the Eastwood exhaust manifold paint...sandblasted the manifolds, painted it on with a brush...it looks terrible until you run the engine and bake it, and then it looks good, and it looks good for a long time. So try buggering up the threads on the exhaust manifold bolts...the torque spec is really low on those. I have hardware store grade 8 fasteners in there right now without problem. > > As far as CAD tech drawings I think the best you will do is get frame locations from the factory service manual. When I worked at Chrysler I worked in the old AMC building in Detroit and there were still a handfull of AMC oldtimers some of whom gave me some really great stuff because they felt that I was carrying the torch for their life's work. I have an assembly manual for the plant circa about 1985. I asked about other stuff and much of it wasn't accessable or people didn't know where it was. The Wag and J-trucks would have been designed in Toledo in the late 50's/early 60's and all those guys had retired. Frame was updated in 73 and nobody I knew was there for that either. I only worked with one guy who was in the automotive industry in the 1960's...he had some awesome stories and remains a friend to this day. (he's retired now) I think your best bet is to get a good J-truck and measure it. That's what they did to get the XJ into CAD. (XJ was designed on the board by old school draftsmen) > > Mark Wallace > 81 Wag? _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail. has ever-growing storage! Don^Rt worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial _Storage_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 08:34:00 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: J truck body specs oh. yeah, body panel diagrams, that makes sense... I may have them in my shop manuals, there's two 4' long shelves filled... I'm working from home today, but have way too much to do before I start fishing through old manuals and taking pictures... unless you can give me a specific year to work on and a few panels... page numbers would be helpful. tomorrow I'm loading up my newly rebuilt RV TF727, new torque converter, new center hub and flex plate, ring gear and off I go... heading to Centralia, mostly likely in the SD33/TF727 powered tug... to meet the guy bringing the SD33T up from Oregon. How soon it all comes together, who knows... Superdawg is closer than ever to being reassembled... the original ideao of a 4.0 would have been a gas guzzler and likely would have relegated the dawg to hauling stuff on weekends... the 6.2 setup used in Omega would have been ok, but as learned in Omega wouldn't have netted the kind of economy desired... and the reason why Omega and the 6.5 blazer went away... a Mercedes Turbo Diesel would have been too complex and likely underpowered... the SD33 by itself, not enough power... but the SD33T, with the shift kitted TF727, 3.54s and 235s should work out well. The tug gets a solid 18 mpg on some of the worst BioDiesel I've gotten in a long time... the SD33T gets 20% better mileage and power... the J10 is possibly, or will be lighter, than the CJ-10... using 3.54s instead of 3.31s, so I'm optimistic that my mileage won't be 18 mpg but 20 mpg in town, which is also what matches the '80 Scout rating and experience. The Scout also claims 24 mpg freeway! wow. I did that with Omega with the 6.2, but had an overdrive transmission... Anyway, Diesel dreamin' and livin' continues... the price of newer WKs with the CRD are dropping as well... the plan is to replace the WJ, which is a fantastic Jeep, with a Diesel WK, and then just have the J10 and the WK, we'd also reluctantly part with the '91 300D, which still gets a solid 30 mpg in town, slightly less on weak biodiesel... could also part with my trailer... just two Diesel vehicles... I have a plan... buy in from my copilot... I think we should start looking for a nice Townhome with a view of sunsets and the Olympics and the Sound... get it initially as a rental, then for retirement... :) with only two, fully functional Diesel Jeeps I wouldn't need to have a monster carport... :) speaking of gardens, just took some pictures... heading into a status meeting, will edit pictures and post... standby for autumn fotos... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Neal Hoover wrote: # nice posters! # # not to slam, but i thought they were looking for technical drawings of body # panels. # # Neal A. Hoover # Project '76 J-10 # Project '96 XJ # http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj # ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" # To: "Neal Hoover" # Cc: # Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:13 PM # Subject: Re: fsj: J truck body specs # # # >I was waiting for someone to locate it... :) # > # > maybe firefox can help: # > # > http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/funny-pictures-firefox-tries-to-retrieve-your-file.jpg # > # > # > firefox failed, but I didn't: # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/SJ-posters.zip # > # > :) # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Neal Hoover wrote: # > # > # lol! # > # even if that's true, it still got a chuckle out of me! # > # ;) # > # # > # now, *finding* it is another story. # > # (sorry, John, couldn't resist.) # > # # > # Neal A. Hoover # > # Project '76 J-10 # > # Project '96 XJ # > # http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj # > # ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Blair" # > # To: "michel balea" ; # > # Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 12:26 PM # > # Subject: RE: fsj: J truck body specs # > # # > # # > # > I'm pretty sure John has them on his site someplace. # > http://wagoneers.com # > # > # > # > Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will # > # > like them only Entangle and hold the poor and # > # > weak, while the rich and powerful will easily # > # > break through them # > # > # > # > ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > > From: mbalea-at-hotmail.com # > # > > To: fsj-at-digest.net # > # > > Subject: fsj: J truck body specs # > # > > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:09:35 +0000 # > # > > # > # > > A 3D design teacher's student is trying to do a cad model for a # > Jtruck. # > # > Does # > # > > anyone has an idea where to find a good lead on technical drawings. # > # > > # > # > > Cheers # > # > > # > # > > Michel # > # > > 74wag # > # > > # > # > > _________________________________________________________________ # > # > > Bing^Y brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. # > Try # > # > > it # > # > > now. # > # > > # > # > # > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_M # > # > > LOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1 # > # > # > # > _________________________________________________________________ # > # > Bing^Y brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. # > Try # > # > it # > # > now. # > # > # > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_M # > # > LOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1 # # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 08:41:37 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: 360 manifold tech, and tech drawings the older 360s seemed to not have the issues of loosening bolts that the newer ones do... my '77 didn't have the same issues that the '81 did... I've only played briefly with my '89 and '91, and they seemed to be ok too... maybe it's just an early '80's issue, which makes sense... or maybe late 70s to mid 80s??? quality is certainly a factor... either way, if I was forced to have an AMC V8 in my jeep, I would ask for the 304. there is a mid-70s J10 running around here with a 304 and the guy claims really decent mileage... of course he does have a drinking problem, but hey, one has to have an AMC delusional dream to go with... ;) why can't they make a smallish sized 4x4, 4 seater with a Diesel, well, let me rephrase that... why don't WE, the US, have access to such? ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Michel Balea wrote: # Very nice bits of information. We need to gather those memorabilia pieces. # # I like the reversed CAD..... # # The funny part is that the 74 exhaust manifold is still tight w 346xxxmiles... # and I have never touched it since I bought it in 1983. The trany is still # tight, except the o-ring at the modulator. And the intake manifold rubber # gasket are starting to get wet, I know that i need to use RTV next time. # # Michel # # # > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net # > Subject: fsj: 360 manifold tech, and tech drawings # > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:10:11 -0400 # > From: wallacem7-at-aol.com # > # > If you live with a 360 for any period of time the exhaust manifolds do # loosen up...but it's a phase that we go through. (not entirely unlike the # phase where we don't realize that one of the front cover bolts goes into an # oil galley and we can't figure out why we always have an oil leak near the oil # pump) Another phase is fighting with the rear window...I have a pretty good # fix that eliminates the stupid clips on that as well more on that later. # > # > Anyway here is my experience and what I have actually had a lot of success # with. What I was told once is that the origional hollow bolts are only hollow # in case you need to drill them out. I actually managed to break off a screw # extractor in one some years back. What I eventually did was pull the head, # drill a bunch of the metal around the bolt away,? weld up the hole with a MIG # welder and then re-drill and re-tap the hole, but that is neither here nor # there. I have used Fel-Pro Gaskets for years with good results. No RTV or # anything.? So fast forward to the last time I had the heads off the Wag I was # going to pay an arm and a leg for the proper OEM bolts and the guy at the AMC # place (who was rude to me on the phone) told me that i didn't need the hollow # bolts. Now, the head/ exhaust manifold is too hot for thread-locker to survive # (I am a heavy user of thread locker) so I did what we did at Chrysler to keep # bolts from backing out...I buggered up the threads before I ran the bolts in. # I can't recall if I crimped a section in the vice, hit them with a ball been # hammer, or just crimped them with vice grips, but I did it up the threads a # little ways so that the bolts would start easily. Well they don't back out # anymore. Another thing that I did was I used the Eastwood exhaust manifold # paint...sandblasted the manifolds, painted it on with a brush...it looks # terrible until you run the engine and bake it, and then it looks good, and it # looks good for a long time. So try buggering up the threads on the exhaust # manifold bolts...the torque spec is really low on those. I have hardware store # grade 8 fasteners in there right now without problem. # > # > As far as CAD tech drawings I think the best you will do is get frame # locations from the factory service manual. When I worked at Chrysler I worked # in the old AMC building in Detroit and there were still a handfull of AMC # oldtimers some of whom gave me some really great stuff because they felt that # I was carrying the torch for their life's work. I have an assembly manual for # the plant circa about 1985. I asked about other stuff and much of it wasn't # accessable or people didn't know where it was. The Wag and J-trucks would have # been designed in Toledo in the late 50's/early 60's and all those guys had # retired. Frame was updated in 73 and nobody I knew was there for that either. # I only worked with one guy who was in the automotive industry in the # 1960's...he had some awesome stories and remains a friend to this day. (he's # retired now) I think your best bet is to get a good J-truck and measure it. # That's what they did to get the XJ into CAD. (XJ was designed on the board by # old school draftsmen) # > # > Mark Wallace # > 81 Wag? # # _________________________________________________________________ # Hotmail. has ever-growing storage! Don^Rt worry about storage limits. # http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial # _Storage_062009 # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 08:45:23 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: Re: off-road Sausage assault (fwd) my "wurst" pun... and only one guy got it??? wake up... :) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Terry Halmshaw ...-at-bigpond.com LMAO! - ----------------------------------------------- let this be a lesson to all of us... once the gov't takes away your 2nd amendment rights, then they'll go after the wurst... john (true story from a friend down under... really, even he's not capable of making something like this up... ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Terry Halmshaw wrote: I think I told you this story: Anyway a friend was having a BBQ in one of the out of bounds areas and a guy from the DHSE showed up asking them questions and telling them to leave, my friend Matty Gear was promptly telling him where to get off all the while shaking his sausage sandwich at him, the sausage broke in half and hit the DSHE officer and poor Matty was charged with assault. It went to court where upon Matty was found guilt of assault by sausage. Poor guy has a record now for assault to which he can never obtain a shooters license: Moral never shake a sausage, not even your own :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 18:07:23 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: J truck body specs Thank you for the offer. The teacher has focused on the Jtruck from twister: 1982 Jeep J-10 HonchoWhat is weak bio-diesel? Michel > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 08:34:00 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: proj96xj-at-insightbb.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: J truck body specs > > oh. yeah, body panel diagrams, that makes sense... > > I may have them in my shop manuals, there's > two 4' long shelves filled... I'm working from home today, but have > way too much to do before I start fishing through old manuals and > taking pictures... unless you can give me a specific year to work on > and a few panels... page numbers would be helpful. > > tomorrow I'm loading up my newly rebuilt RV TF727, new torque converter, > new center hub and flex plate, ring gear and off I go... heading to > Centralia, mostly likely in the SD33/TF727 powered tug... to meet > the guy bringing the SD33T up from Oregon. > > How soon it all comes together, who knows... Superdawg is closer > than ever to being reassembled... the original ideao of a > 4.0 would have been a gas guzzler and likely would have relegated > the dawg to hauling stuff on weekends... the 6.2 setup used in > Omega would have been ok, but as learned in Omega wouldn't have > netted the kind of economy desired... and the reason why Omega > and the 6.5 blazer went away... a Mercedes Turbo Diesel would > have been too complex and likely underpowered... the SD33 by > itself, not enough power... but the SD33T, with the shift kitted > TF727, 3.54s and 235s should work out well. The tug gets a solid > 18 mpg on some of the worst BioDiesel I've gotten in a long time... > > the SD33T gets 20% better mileage and power... the J10 is possibly, > or will be lighter, than the CJ-10... using 3.54s instead of 3.31s, > so I'm optimistic that my mileage won't be 18 mpg but 20 mpg in town, > which is also what matches the '80 Scout rating and experience. The > Scout also claims 24 mpg freeway! wow. I did that with Omega with > the 6.2, but had an overdrive transmission... > > Anyway, Diesel dreamin' and livin' continues... the price of > newer WKs with the CRD are dropping as well... the plan is to > replace the WJ, which is a fantastic Jeep, with a Diesel WK, and > then just have the J10 and the WK, we'd also reluctantly part > with the '91 300D, which still gets a solid 30 mpg in town, slightly > less on weak biodiesel... could also part with my trailer... just > two Diesel vehicles... I have a plan... buy in from my copilot... > > I think we should start looking for a nice Townhome with a view of > sunsets and the Olympics and the Sound... get it initially as a rental, > then for retirement... :) with only two, fully functional Diesel > Jeeps I wouldn't need to have a monster carport... :) > > speaking of gardens, just took some pictures... heading into a status > meeting, will edit pictures and post... standby for autumn fotos... > > john > > > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Neal Hoover wrote: > > # nice posters! > # > # not to slam, but i thought they were looking for technical drawings of body > # panels. > # > # Neal A. Hoover > # Project '76 J-10 > # Project '96 XJ > # http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj > # ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" > # To: "Neal Hoover" > # Cc: > # Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:13 PM > # Subject: Re: fsj: J truck body specs > # > # > # >I was waiting for someone to locate it... :) > # > > # > maybe firefox can help: > # > > # > http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/funny-pictures-firefox- tries-to-retrieve-your-file.jpg > # > > # > > # > firefox failed, but I didn't: > # > > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/SJ-posters.zip > # > > # > :) > # > > # > > # > > # > ----- > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > > # > > # > On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Neal Hoover wrote: > # > > # > # lol! > # > # even if that's true, it still got a chuckle out of me! > # > # ;) > # > # > # > # now, *finding* it is another story. > # > # (sorry, John, couldn't resist.) > # > # > # > # Neal A. Hoover > # > # Project '76 J-10 > # > # Project '96 XJ > # > # http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj > # > # ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Blair" > # > # To: "michel balea" ; > # > # Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 12:26 PM > # > # Subject: RE: fsj: J truck body specs > # > # > # > # > # > # > I'm pretty sure John has them on his site someplace. > # > http://wagoneers.com > # > # > > # > # > Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will > # > # > like them only Entangle and hold the poor and > # > # > weak, while the rich and powerful will easily > # > # > break through them > # > # > > # > # > ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > # > # > > # > # > > # > # > > # > # > > From: mbalea-at-hotmail.com > # > # > > To: fsj-at-digest.net > # > # > > Subject: fsj: J truck body specs > # > # > > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:09:35 +0000 > # > # > > > # > # > > A 3D design teacher's student is trying to do a cad model for a > # > Jtruck. > # > # > Does > # > # > > anyone has an idea where to find a good lead on technical drawings. > # > # > > > # > # > > Cheers > # > # > > > # > # > > Michel > # > # > > 74wag > # > # > > > # > # > > _________________________________________________________________ > # > # > > Bing^Y brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. > # > Try > # > # > > it > # > # > > now. > # > # > > > # > # > > # > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_M > # > # > > LOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1 > # > # > > # > # > _________________________________________________________________ > # > # > Bing^Y brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. > # > Try > # > # > it > # > # > now. > # > # > > # > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_M > # > # > LOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1 > # > # _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail. has ever-growing storage! Don^Rt worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial _Storage_062009 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3439 **************************