From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Oct 29 07:55:56 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, October 29 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3451 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: how to build a 360 fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) Re: fsj: how to build a 360 RE: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) RE: fsj: how to build a 360 RE: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:53:25 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: how to build a 360 my son has decided to "enhance" his AMC 360 in his '85 GW... this is because I won't let him drag another car home... (he's got two). So, he's interested in doing something with the camshaft... he wants to go radical, manual lifters or some such thing... I've decided not to reel him in on this one and will let him do whatever he wants as long as I have access to my carport and tools... (and sawzall). So, what options are there for building an AMC 360? He's planning on the Edelbrock Perform RPM (a mistake in my opinon) and an aggressive cam... will his NP229 hold up to his plans? just remember... he put a Ford 460 in a '74 Javelin... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:30:25 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) input from down under... gotta love this guy, he hates holleys too. :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Terry Halmshaw At 04:53 PM 10/28/2009, you wrote: A Ford 460 is a far cry from a stifled AMC 360. You can't just bung a cam into a motor and expect results, this is a very common misnomer, a manifold will make minimal difference if just used in conjunction with a cam. I can tell you straight up that just doing a cam and manifold will increase consumption and be a terrible disappointment in regards to performance. What needs to be done is expensive and requires all components changed or modified to get the max from a 360, and this can be done, I have done it, my old brown 79 Quady spun both front and rear tires and did the SQM in 16.9, not bad for a 3 tonner. The main thing that needs to be sourced is a set of 70 / 73 heads, they have bigger valves, larger ports and smaller combustion chambers increasing compression. They are cheaper to have rebuilt then the later models as the porting valves etc are already done. Flat top FORGED pistons is the next step with chrome rings (if you can get the rings) if not standard cast iron will suffice. Next is a high volume oil pump (this is a must) competition bearings, dual row true roller timing set, DO NOT use solid lifters, which I think Mark was referring to these require either valve clearance adjusting posts or roller rockers, both of which are a pain in the behind, a good set of hydraulics will serve him very well, just remember to prime them first. Don't use extractors, they warp and become a massive headache, instead source older headers from 1970 / 73. a 3" exhaust with straight through mufflers will allow great flow and a wonderful note. As for the cam you are very limited (here anyway) as to what's on the shelf, a custom grind will most likely be a better way to go. Double spring valves of a higher rate will be needed to suit the cam, don't go mental with lift, concentrate more on duration, this will allow for higher revving and limited if not eradicate valve bounce, 6000 RPM is what I achieved from my beast I could have pushed harder but the power was waning at 6k so anymore would be an exercise in futility. Do not use a Holley carb, regardless of their reputation they are total crap and the worst designed carby I have ever seen, with the exception of the Solex down draft. The best carb you can use is the spread bore Quadrajet from the pre emission days, have this rebuilt and dyno tuned and jetted for best performance, the Quadrajet is the best carb in the world bar none, mount this on a Edlebrock mid riser and performance abounds. The total cost of building my engine was $3000.00 and I did all work myself including honing with the best honing machine in Australia, I milled my heads 40 thou and my compression ratio was dead on 11:1 the highest you can go before running high octane fuels. Dizzy was locked off at a total advance of 17 degrees to stop detonation (pinging). Dual GM PCV valves were used to increase vacuum which made for better braking and better ventilation of the engine. finish off with crap oil to run the engine in, then move to a higher grade fossil oil before changing to high grade fully synthetics. I have my old came here, he can have it if he so desires, I sold my heads and manifolds so the cam is all there is, I don't recall its specs as it was a custom grind to suit my blueprint. Of course he will need to build his engine to my specs, otherwise he will be going backwards. Bare in mind solid lifters and rollers increase cam wear 10 fold, just don't do it. Terry. >my son has decided to "enhance" his AMC 360 in his '85 GW... >this is because I won't let him drag another car home... (he's got two). > >So, he's interested in doing something with the camshaft... he wants to >go radical, manual lifters or some such thing... I've decided not to >reel him in on this one and will let him do whatever he wants as long as >I have access to my carport and tools... (and sawzall). > >So, what options are there for building an AMC 360? >He's planning on the Edelbrock Perform RPM (a mistake in my opinon) and >an aggressive cam... will his NP229 hold up to his plans? > >just remember... he put a Ford 460 in a '74 Javelin... > > >john > ----- >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us >------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:01:59 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: fsj: how to build a 360 NP229 isn't his weak spot, neither is the 727. His problem is the gears in the axles - it's foolish to put a huge cam in an engine that sits in a rig with a stock converter, 2.73s (or, look out, 3.31s for performance option), and 30 inch tall tires. If he gears it appropriately, the 360 can make silly amounts of power. But, that power is worthless if it cannot be properly put to use. It's not like his 460 that had torque no matter what - big cam in a 360 will need either low gears or a high stall converter, better to have both (and a car, not a GW unless he's going to mud bogs...) His best investment would be in something that could take something like desktop dyno and relate that to vehicle weight, gearing, and tire size, so he could see on the screen what's going to happen without spending a bunch of money to get his butt whomped by a 240D with a tired cylinder. If I see him before he goes too crazy, have me tell him the story about a friend who tried running a 290 degree cam and double pumper on a 302 in an F150. For a trail rig. Needless to say, he put a 2bbl on it and a 258-260 degree cam in it, and it performed a LOT better just about everywhere... On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 04:53:25PM -0700, diesel john wrote: > my son has decided to "enhance" his AMC 360 in his '85 GW... > this is because I won't let him drag another car home... (he's got two). > > So, he's interested in doing something with the camshaft... he wants to > go radical, manual lifters or some such thing... I've decided not to > reel him in on this one and will let him do whatever he wants as long as > I have access to my carport and tools... (and sawzall). > > So, what options are there for building an AMC 360? > He's planning on the Edelbrock Perform RPM (a mistake in my opinon) and > an aggressive cam... will his NP229 hold up to his plans? > > just remember... he put a Ford 460 in a '74 Javelin... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 06:39:24 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) So did he say to use a 460 or a 360? I am confused by the specs years of the 70-73, which I thought that extended to 75 for the 360. Michel 74wag > Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:30:25 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: fsj-at-digest.net > CC: DZAshby-at-comcast.net > Subject: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) > > input from down under... > > gotta love this guy, he hates holleys too. :) > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Terry Halmshaw > > At 04:53 PM 10/28/2009, you wrote: > A Ford 460 is a far cry from a stifled AMC 360. > > You can't just bung a cam into a motor and expect results, this is > a very common misnomer, a manifold will make minimal difference > if just used in conjunction with a cam. > > I can tell you straight up that just doing a cam and manifold will increase > consumption and be a terrible disappointment in regards to performance. > > What needs to be done is expensive and requires all components changed > or modified to get the max from a 360, and this can be done, I have done it, > my old brown 79 Quady spun both front and rear tires and did the SQM in > 16.9, not bad for a 3 tonner. > > The main thing that needs to be sourced is a set of 70 / 73 heads, they have > bigger valves, larger ports and smaller combustion chambers increasing > compression. They are cheaper to have rebuilt then the later models as the > porting valves etc are already done. > > Flat top FORGED pistons is the next step with chrome rings (if you can get > the rings) if not standard cast iron will suffice. > > Next is a high volume oil pump (this is a must) competition bearings, dual row > true roller timing set, DO NOT use solid lifters, which I think Mark was > referring > to these require either valve clearance adjusting posts or roller rockers, both > of > which are a pain in the behind, a good set of hydraulics will serve him very > well, > just remember to prime them first. > > Don't use extractors, they warp and become a massive headache, instead source > older headers from 1970 / 73. a 3" exhaust with straight through mufflers will > allow > great flow and a wonderful note. As for the cam you are very limited (here > anyway) > as to what's on the shelf, a custom grind will most likely be a better way to > go. > > Double spring valves of a higher rate will be needed to suit the cam, don't go > mental > with lift, concentrate more on duration, this will allow for higher revving and > limited if > not eradicate valve bounce, 6000 RPM is what I achieved from my beast I could > have > pushed harder but the power was waning at 6k so anymore would be an exercise > in futility. > > Do not use a Holley carb, regardless of their reputation they are total crap and > the > worst designed carby I have ever seen, with the exception of the Solex down > draft. > The best carb you can use is the spread bore Quadrajet from the pre emission > days, > have this rebuilt and dyno tuned and jetted for best performance, the Quadrajet > is the > best carb in the world bar none, mount this on a Edlebrock mid riser and > performance > abounds. The total cost of building my engine was $3000.00 and I did all work > myself > including honing with the best honing machine in Australia, I milled my heads 40 > thou > and my compression ratio was dead on 11:1 the highest you can go before running > high > octane fuels. Dizzy was locked off at a total advance of 17 degrees to stop > detonation > (pinging). Dual GM PCV valves were used to increase vacuum which made for better > braking and better ventilation of the engine. finish off with crap oil to run > the engine in, > then move to a higher grade fossil oil before changing to high grade fully > synthetics. > > I have my old came here, he can have it if he so desires, I sold my heads and > manifolds > so the cam is all there is, I don't recall its specs as it was a custom grind to > suit my > blueprint. Of course he will need to build his engine to my specs, otherwise he > will be > going backwards. > > Bare in mind solid lifters and rollers increase cam wear 10 fold, just don't do > it. > > Terry. > > > > > >my son has decided to "enhance" his AMC 360 in his '85 GW... > >this is because I won't let him drag another car home... (he's got two). > > > >So, he's interested in doing something with the camshaft... he wants to > >go radical, manual lifters or some such thing... I've decided not to > >reel him in on this one and will let him do whatever he wants as long as > >I have access to my carport and tools... (and sawzall). > > > >So, what options are there for building an AMC 360? > >He's planning on the Edelbrock Perform RPM (a mistake in my opinon) and > >an aggressive cam... will his NP229 hold up to his plans? > > > >just remember... he put a Ford 460 in a '74 Javelin... > > > > > >john > > ----- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727: :T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:10:33 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: how to build a 360 One more thing for the noobies, what is the choice for the lifters as we are being told that flat bottom lifter are going to hell due to the reduction of the level of Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate in the oil? What is happening down under on that issue. Michel 74wag > Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:01:59 -0700 > From: kevin-at-mordred.punk.net > To: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net > CC: fsj-at-digest.net; DZAshby-at-comcast.net; timesawastin-at-bigpond.com > Subject: Re: fsj: how to build a 360 > > NP229 isn't his weak spot, neither is the 727. His problem is the gears in the > axles - it's foolish to put a huge cam in an engine that sits in a rig with > a stock converter, 2.73s (or, look out, 3.31s for performance option), and > 30 inch tall tires. > > If he gears it appropriately, the 360 can make silly amounts of power. But, > that power is worthless if it cannot be properly put to use. It's not like > his 460 that had torque no matter what - big cam in a 360 will need either > low gears or a high stall converter, better to have both (and a car, not a > GW unless he's going to mud bogs...) > > His best investment would be in something that could take something like > desktop dyno and relate that to vehicle weight, gearing, and tire size, so he > could see on the screen what's going to happen without spending a bunch of > money to get his butt whomped by a 240D with a tired cylinder. If I see him > before he goes too crazy, have me tell him the story about a friend who tried > running a 290 degree cam and double pumper on a 302 in an F150. For a trail > rig. Needless to say, he put a 2bbl on it and a 258-260 degree cam in it, and > it performed a LOT better just about everywhere... > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 04:53:25PM -0700, diesel john wrote: > > my son has decided to "enhance" his AMC 360 in his '85 GW... > > this is because I won't let him drag another car home... (he's got two). > > > > So, he's interested in doing something with the camshaft... he wants to > > go radical, manual lifters or some such thing... I've decided not to > > reel him in on this one and will let him do whatever he wants as long as > > I have access to my carport and tools... (and sawzall). > > > > So, what options are there for building an AMC 360? > > He's planning on the Edelbrock Perform RPM (a mistake in my opinon) and > > an aggressive cam... will his NP229 hold up to his plans? > > > > just remember... he put a Ford 460 in a '74 Javelin... _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMT AGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:55:12 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) the FORD 460 was used in his mad-max javelin project from AZ. the AMC 360 is in his 85 GW and what he hopes to build up, why, I don't know... it's something in his genetic dispostion... not sure where he gets it from... ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 29 Oct 2009, Michel Balea wrote: # # # So did he say to use a 460 or a 360? I am confused by the specs years of the 70-73, which I thought that extended to 75 for the 360. # # Michel # 74wag # # > Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:30:25 -0700 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: fsj-at-digest.net # > CC: DZAshby-at-comcast.net # > Subject: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) # > # > input from down under... # > # > gotta love this guy, he hates holleys too. :) # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- # > From: Terry Halmshaw # > # > At 04:53 PM 10/28/2009, you wrote: # > A Ford 460 is a far cry from a stifled AMC 360. # > # > You can't just bung a cam into a motor and expect results, this is # > a very common misnomer, a manifold will make minimal difference # > if just used in conjunction with a cam. # > # > I can tell you straight up that just doing a cam and manifold will increase # > consumption and be a terrible disappointment in regards to performance. # > # > What needs to be done is expensive and requires all components changed # > or modified to get the max from a 360, and this can be done, I have done it, # > my old brown 79 Quady spun both front and rear tires and did the SQM in # > 16.9, not bad for a 3 tonner. # > # > The main thing that needs to be sourced is a set of 70 / 73 heads, they have # > bigger valves, larger ports and smaller combustion chambers increasing # > compression. They are cheaper to have rebuilt then the later models as the # > porting valves etc are already done. # > # > Flat top FORGED pistons is the next step with chrome rings (if you can get # > the rings) if not standard cast iron will suffice. # > # > Next is a high volume oil pump (this is a must) competition bearings, dual row # > true roller timing set, DO NOT use solid lifters, which I think Mark was # > referring # > to these require either valve clearance adjusting posts or roller rockers, both # > of # > which are a pain in the behind, a good set of hydraulics will serve him very # > well, # > just remember to prime them first. # > # > Don't use extractors, they warp and become a massive headache, instead source # > older headers from 1970 / 73. a 3" exhaust with straight through mufflers will # > allow # > great flow and a wonderful note. As for the cam you are very limited (here # > anyway) # > as to what's on the shelf, a custom grind will most likely be a better way to # > go. # > # > Double spring valves of a higher rate will be needed to suit the cam, don't go # > mental # > with lift, concentrate more on duration, this will allow for higher revving and # > limited if # > not eradicate valve bounce, 6000 RPM is what I achieved from my beast I could # > have # > pushed harder but the power was waning at 6k so anymore would be an exercise # > in futility. # > # > Do not use a Holley carb, regardless of their reputation they are total crap and # > the # > worst designed carby I have ever seen, with the exception of the Solex down # > draft. # > The best carb you can use is the spread bore Quadrajet from the pre emission # > days, # > have this rebuilt and dyno tuned and jetted for best performance, the Quadrajet # > is the # > best carb in the world bar none, mount this on a Edlebrock mid riser and # > performance # > abounds. The total cost of building my engine was $3000.00 and I did all work # > myself # > including honing with the best honing machine in Australia, I milled my heads 40 # > thou # > and my compression ratio was dead on 11:1 the highest you can go before running # > high # > octane fuels. Dizzy was locked off at a total advance of 17 degrees to stop # > detonation # > (pinging). Dual GM PCV valves were used to increase vacuum which made for better # > braking and better ventilation of the engine. finish off with crap oil to run # > the engine in, # > then move to a higher grade fossil oil before changing to high grade fully # > synthetics. # > # > I have my old came here, he can have it if he so desires, I sold my heads and # > manifolds # > so the cam is all there is, I don't recall its specs as it was a custom grind to # > suit my # > blueprint. Of course he will need to build his engine to my specs, otherwise he # > will be # > going backwards. # > # > Bare in mind solid lifters and rollers increase cam wear 10 fold, just don't do # > it. # > # > Terry. # > # > # > # > # > >my son has decided to "enhance" his AMC 360 in his '85 GW... # > >this is because I won't let him drag another car home... (he's got two). # > > # > >So, he's interested in doing something with the camshaft... he wants to # > >go radical, manual lifters or some such thing... I've decided not to # > >reel him in on this one and will let him do whatever he wants as long as # > >I have access to my carport and tools... (and sawzall). # > > # > >So, what options are there for building an AMC 360? # > >He's planning on the Edelbrock Perform RPM (a mistake in my opinon) and # > >an aggressive cam... will his NP229 hold up to his plans? # > > # > >just remember... he put a Ford 460 in a '74 Javelin... # > > # > > # > >john # > > ----- # > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # _________________________________________________________________ # New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more. # http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wl&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3451 **************************