From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Oct 30 11:04:32 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, October 30 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3452 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: amc 360 build comparison fsj: carcraft amc360 build Re: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) RE: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) RE: fsj: how to build a 360 RE: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) fsj: Building an AMC 360 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:03:51 -0600 From: Troy Phagan Subject: fsj: amc 360 build comparison I don't know much about them, however for the a comparison /contrast for the AMC 360 build, might want to look at these guys. http://www.tuffdawgengines.com/amc_360_365hp.htm Or, budget allows just be lazy and order one! heh! - -- - -Troy Troy Phagan C.R.P. 4x4 & Auto Accessories 2102 9th ST Greeley, CO 80631 970-351-8603 fax: 970-353-3066 tsp-at-crptruck.com www.crptruck.com www.smilingcharleys.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:10:51 -0600 From: Troy Phagan Subject: fsj: carcraft amc360 build Interesting article on a AMC 360 build by CarCraft. Mostly Edelbrock "off the shelf" parts. Nice thing is that they did various part combinations and then tested with dyno runs to show the actual differences, instead of armchair theories. http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0601_amc_360_engine_build/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:34:41 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) FWIW, stateside 360/401s lost a bunch of compression for 72. I don't believe there's a difference in the heads, but since I like pump gas, I don't mess with the high compression stuff much. FWIW, edelbrock makes aluminum heads now... On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 06:39:24AM +0000, Michel Balea wrote: > So did he say to use a 460 or a 360? I am confused by the specs years of the > 70-73, which I thought that extended to 75 for the 360. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:02:19 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) They didn't lose that much compression (11:1 for the 401 down to 9:1) That was because they were trying to ban high octane fuel and the fuel shortage hit too. Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:34:41 -0700 > From: kevin-at-mordred.punk.net > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com > CC: john-at-wagoneers.com; fsj-at-digest.net; dzashby-at-comcast.net > Subject: Re: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) > > FWIW, stateside 360/401s lost a bunch of compression for 72. I don't believe > there's a difference in the heads, but since I like pump gas, I don't mess > with the high compression stuff much. > > FWIW, edelbrock makes aluminum heads now... > > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 06:39:24AM +0000, Michel Balea wrote: > > So did he say to use a 460 or a 360? I am confused by the specs years of the > > 70-73, which I thought that extended to 75 for the 360. _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMT AGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen3:102009 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:22:55 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: how to build a 360 If he does the Performer package, then he'll do well. Anything more radical that that would only be good for tractor pulls or throwing mud (kind of like the 454 in the '81 C20 I'm about to put up for sale) Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:53:25 -0700 > From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net > To: fsj-at-digest.net; DZAshby-at-comcast.net; timesawastin-at-bigpond.com > Subject: fsj: how to build a 360 > > my son has decided to "enhance" his AMC 360 in his '85 GW... > this is because I won't let him drag another car home... (he's got two). > > So, he's interested in doing something with the camshaft... he wants to > go radical, manual lifters or some such thing... I've decided not to > reel him in on this one and will let him do whatever he wants as long as > I have access to my carport and tools... (and sawzall). > > So, what options are there for building an AMC 360? > He's planning on the Edelbrock Perform RPM (a mistake in my opinon) and > an aggressive cam... will his NP229 hold up to his plans? > > just remember... he put a Ford 460 in a '74 Javelin... > > > john > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMT AGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen3:102009 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:32:58 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) Main thing is to stay the HECK away from BADger pistons in an AMC! Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:30:25 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: fsj-at-digest.net > CC: DZAshby-at-comcast.net > Subject: fsj: Re: how to build a 360 (fwd) > > input from down under... > > gotta love this guy, he hates holleys too. :) > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Terry Halmshaw > > At 04:53 PM 10/28/2009, you wrote: > A Ford 460 is a far cry from a stifled AMC 360. > > You can't just bung a cam into a motor and expect results, this is > a very common misnomer, a manifold will make minimal difference > if just used in conjunction with a cam. > > I can tell you straight up that just doing a cam and manifold will increase > consumption and be a terrible disappointment in regards to performance. > > What needs to be done is expensive and requires all components changed > or modified to get the max from a 360, and this can be done, I have done it, > my old brown 79 Quady spun both front and rear tires and did the SQM in > 16.9, not bad for a 3 tonner. > > The main thing that needs to be sourced is a set of 70 / 73 heads, they have > bigger valves, larger ports and smaller combustion chambers increasing > compression. They are cheaper to have rebuilt then the later models as the > porting valves etc are already done. > > Flat top FORGED pistons is the next step with chrome rings (if you can get > the rings) if not standard cast iron will suffice. > > Next is a high volume oil pump (this is a must) competition bearings, dual row > true roller timing set, DO NOT use solid lifters, which I think Mark was > referring > to these require either valve clearance adjusting posts or roller rockers, both > of > which are a pain in the behind, a good set of hydraulics will serve him very > well, > just remember to prime them first. > > Don't use extractors, they warp and become a massive headache, instead source > older headers from 1970 / 73. a 3" exhaust with straight through mufflers will > allow > great flow and a wonderful note. As for the cam you are very limited (here > anyway) > as to what's on the shelf, a custom grind will most likely be a better way to > go. > > Double spring valves of a higher rate will be needed to suit the cam, don't go > mental > with lift, concentrate more on duration, this will allow for higher revving and > limited if > not eradicate valve bounce, 6000 RPM is what I achieved from my beast I could > have > pushed harder but the power was waning at 6k so anymore would be an exercise > in futility. > > Do not use a Holley carb, regardless of their reputation they are total crap and > the > worst designed carby I have ever seen, with the exception of the Solex down > draft. > The best carb you can use is the spread bore Quadrajet from the pre emission > days, > have this rebuilt and dyno tuned and jetted for best performance, the Quadrajet > is the > best carb in the world bar none, mount this on a Edlebrock mid riser and > performance > abounds. The total cost of building my engine was $3000.00 and I did all work > myself > including honing with the best honing machine in Australia, I milled my heads 40 > thou > and my compression ratio was dead on 11:1 the highest you can go before running > high > octane fuels. Dizzy was locked off at a total advance of 17 degrees to stop > detonation > (pinging). Dual GM PCV valves were used to increase vacuum which made for better > braking and better ventilation of the engine. finish off with crap oil to run > the engine in, > then move to a higher grade fossil oil before changing to high grade fully > synthetics. > > I have my old came here, he can have it if he so desires, I sold my heads and > manifolds > so the cam is all there is, I don't recall its specs as it was a custom grind to > suit my > blueprint. Of course he will need to build his engine to my specs, otherwise he > will be > going backwards. > > Bare in mind solid lifters and rollers increase cam wear 10 fold, just don't do > it. > > Terry. > > > > > >my son has decided to "enhance" his AMC 360 in his '85 GW... > >this is because I won't let him drag another car home... (he's got two). > > > >So, he's interested in doing something with the camshaft... he wants to > >go radical, manual lifters or some such thing... I've decided not to > >reel him in on this one and will let him do whatever he wants as long as > >I have access to my carport and tools... (and sawzall). > > > >So, what options are there for building an AMC 360? > >He's planning on the Edelbrock Perform RPM (a mistake in my opinon) and > >an aggressive cam... will his NP229 hold up to his plans? > > > >just remember... he put a Ford 460 in a '74 Javelin... > > > > > >john > > ----- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow! http://microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default-ga.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727 ::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:102009 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:55:39 -0400 From: wallacem7-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Building an AMC 360 Gotta put in my two cents on this as I built an AMC 360 back in 95, have had a very good run with it, but I would do a bunch of stuff different now. What I have is a 360, Melling RV Cam, Melling oil pump, Cloyes dual roller timing chain, three angle valve grind on the origional heads, decked the block to clean it up, which also gave me a little more compression, .030 overbore, just to clean up the cylinders, Edelbrock performer (dual plane) intake with EGR, I ran a 600 CFM vacuum secondary Holley square bore for several years, but later changed to a 650 CFM Carter AFB which I like a lot better. I was 19 when I built this engine during a college summer, it still runs strong, but when we are 19 years old we don't have a great idea of what we are doing. Although this isn't too far off from how people built engines in the mid 90's . I now run Rotella oil in my flat tappet motors. No synthetics in my older motors because they don't get driven that much and some of them mark their territory. Although the Wag's motor doesn't leak. My sport car magazine says to build torque with compression, and then get the power with the revs...which is to say in the head. So it's now it's 2009 and I am no longer 19 years old. What would I do different? First off I would go with more compression...I like low compression engines about as much as John likes gas engines with Holley carbs, I'd like to run 12:1 and run Alcohol. Although at 7000 feet I could probably run 12:1 compression and high-test gasoline. Since the crank and rods should be forged with that kind of compression I'd see about using a 401 Crank. I know it has been done. I have no complaints about my current cam, but I suspect I could do better with a desktop dyno helping me select a cam. I would also do port work on the heads...with the checkbook. At this point I'd be inclined to find a shop that's building AMC motors for racing and spend some money for their expertise. There is a lot of misinformation and arguements made with incomplete information out there about running E85. Hot Rod magazine has done some good write-ups about it and addresses that it does not have the energy density of gasoline, but due to it's latent heat it can handle big compression or lots of turbo and that you can get the supposed loss of efficiency back if you just design your system to work with it. Mark Wallace 81 Wag ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3452 **************************