From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Feb 8 10:00:10 2010 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, February 8 2010 Volume 01 : Number 3528 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: RE: xj: smog challenge; high NO and CO; likely causes? fsj: RE: xj: ernest emissions episodes fsj: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes fsj: Mold in Jeep and seat belts RE: fsj: Mold in Jeep and seat belts Re: fsj: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes RE: fsj: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes fsj: RE: xj: ernest challenge; high NO and CO; likely causes? fsj: monday morning fotos FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:20:54 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: RE: xj: smog challenge; high NO and CO; likely causes? The other thing I have seen is a low thermostat case high CO readings at low speed and idle. From: ernest breakfield Subject: xj: smog challenge; high NO and CO; likely causes? hi all! (apologies in advance for the wide distribution!) new challenge; our '94 XJ (4.0, 235K miles) just failed smog for the first time ever; both NO and CO readings were out of acceptable range -at- 15MPH, while only NO was high -at- 25MPH on the roller test (though it was *very* close* to the limit). HC readings were well within the allowable amounts at both speeds. 15MPH 25MPH %CO2 14.4 14.5 %O2 0.0 0.0 HC 48 (89 max) 38 (54 max) CO 1.08 (0.66 max) 1.04 (0.80 max) NO 633 (517 max) 767 (770 max) reading around, i haven't found a simple clear answer as to what the causes of this might be, and some of the shops i've talked to seem to be taking a "guess and shotgun" approach as to how to deal with it. for reference; oil had been changed ~50 miles earlier; has been Red Line synthetic for most of the last 200K miles. vehicle had been driven at mostly highway speeds for almost an hour immediately before the test, and didn't sit for more than a few minutes before it went on the rollers... but it was a rainy day and everything was quite wet. have since changed the Air Filter and done a Seafoam treatment just on the chance that it might help clear out some gunk build-up in the combustion chamber (2/3 down the throttle body and 1/3 in the fuel); the smoke cloud created would have been the envy of James Bond, and it actually seems to have evened out the idle a bit. did some preliminary banging around on the exhaust system, but don't seem to have any undue rattles indicating any obviously broken internal bits. TPS, O2 sensor have been there for probably ~100K+ miles, as has the set of injectors that's in there now. have a fresh fuel filter that i plan to put in (as part of a general overdue tune-up). have a fresh set of plugs that i plan to put in when i take out the ones that are in there to 'read' them to see if there's any clues there. can anyone point me to a clear simple listing of what the causes are likely to be for each of these parameters being over these limits? i'm not fond of guesses when the guys who are making the guesses are making money off of it whether they're solving the problem or not, and would prefer to educate myself further on the topic before going to talk with the Smog repair folk. we do have a program here in California to provide financial assistance for repair of smog-failure related items (State pays up to $500 after you pay the first $100), and although this vehicle qualifies, i don't want to have to get into that if it's something simple and/or that i should be able to take care of myself. there's (yet another) new law now regarding the certification of Catalytic Converters, and they've suddenly become even more expensive; if that's going to be part of what needs to be replaced, i want to make sure that the Government money gets spent on that and i do what i can myself in a more cost-effective manner beforehand. any hints; tips clues appreciated! cheers! e _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:31:43 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: RE: xj: ernest emissions episodes I have the dubious "honour" of making cars pass Air Scare (up in BC and WA) when they have often failed numerous times before. On the HO models you can retard engine timing slightly by slotting the crank position sensor mounting holes (commonly done on the stroker list) so the sensor is moved slightly in the same direction as the motor rotation. (that will knock down NOx in a hurry!) That previously dirty air filter could be the cause of the "too much fuel" issue if clogged enough that the sensors couldn't compensate for the lack of air flow. Charcoal canister is another major culprit (especially is recently filled, and especially if "overfilled" ie: pumping in that extra $1 or so to "round up") The HO system handles the NOx issue by retarding the cam timing (which pushes the power band higher in the RPM range and adds a bit more HP/TQ while it's at it) From: john Subject: xj: ernest emissions episodes found this website... my thinking egr was on the right track... http://www.aircare.ca/repinfo-ere-comptesting-8.php busy, too tired to read for analysis, will let you sort it out and simplify for us. :) I think you have a lean burn condition causing your NO issue... :) john http://www.aircare.ca/repinfo-ere-causes-co.php Possible Causes of High Carbon Monoxide (CO) Emissions High CO means too much fuel. Fuel can only come from three sources: the crankcase vapor control system, the evaporative control system, or the actual fuel delivery system. The fuel delivery system is certainly the most likely culprit but in most cases it is very quick and easy to eliminate the other two possibilities first. However, if it is problematic to check the evaporative system purging, it is probably wise to go straight to fuel delivery system diagnosis. In order to pinpoint the cause of excessive CO emissions, the following systems and possible defects will need to be checked, usually (but not always) in this order: Excessive Crankcase Blowby or PCV Flow If oil vapours in the engine's crankcase are excessive, or the oil is dirty or contaminated, excessive CO emissions can result. Dirty or contaminated oil is easily rectified by an oil change. Excess crankcase vapour flow can be caused by an incorrect PCV valve or by serious internal engine damage such as worn-out piston rings. Serious internal engine damage can only be remedied by major engine repair or overhaul. For more info regarding the diagnosis of crankcase vapour control systems, see Crankcase Vapour Control System Testing. Saturated Evaporative Control System The charcoal canister stores fuel system vapors until they can be withdrawn and burned in the engine. Under normal circumstances, this should never result in excessive CO for more than a few seconds. It is possible for charcoal canisters to become saturated with fuel. This essentially means that they can never be cleared of HC vapors and need to be replaced. For more info on how testing for excessive crankcase blow-by gases, see Evaporative Control System Testing. Rich Air-Fuel Mixture There are many aspects of the engine's fuel delivery system that may need to be checked when diagnosing a rich air/fuel mixture. That is the main reason that this is listed behind crankcase vapor and evaporative emission control systems-even though they are less likely causes of the problem, they are much easier and quicker to check. When diagnosing a rich air-fuel mixture, it is important to keep in mind the possibility of a defect in an entirely different area affecting the operation of the fuel delivery system. For example, certain mechanical engine defects may cause abnormally low engine vacuum and result in the fuel system delivering more fuel than is actually needed by the engine. The symptom of excess CO may lead one to think that the defect lies with the fuel system but the problem actually lies elsewhere. For detailed info regarding the diagnosis of fuel delivery systems, see Fuel System Testing. Are Other Problems Being Masked? An additional consideration if your vehicle failed with very high CO emissions is the possibility that it may also have a NOx problem that was masked by the high CO. Sometimes restoring the air/fuel ratio to the proper range uncovers a NOx problem. The NOx defect may have existed previously but wasn't evident because of the lack of oxygen that accompanies a rich mixture. If possible, the technician should perform a quick check of NOx control systems after identifying the cause of the CO problem. Any problems found should be included in the total repair estimate. However, in these circumstances any NOx related repairs would be a lower priority than the CO related repairs. At any rate, you should be aware that it is possible that a NOx problem may become evident after a CO problem is repaired. * Previous: Causes of Excess Hydrocarbons _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:35:01 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes Be careful you use O2 sensor safe TBI cleaner as many carb cleaners have silicon in their spray to lube linkages and that will kill your O2 sensor(s) (I found out the hard -at-$$ way years ago) From: Ed Kummel Subject: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes There's a really telling statement in this blurb: "crankcase vapour flow can be caused by an incorrect PCV valve" The 4.0L Jeep engines are notorious for having PCV issues. That hard vacuum tube that leads from the valve cover regularly gets clogged that causes the PCV system to no longer work. Some carb cleaner will usually unclog this tube. Ed _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:48:13 -0500 From: wallacem7-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Mold in Jeep and seat belts couple of thoughts on mold in a Jeep. If you really want to know what it is there are labs that will analyze it from a tape pull sample and they will tell you genus and species and what specifically it will take to kill it. Out here it's maybe $40. Or you can take a few other options...UV from the sun will kill it if you can get it apart, dried out and exposed to the sun, or you can wash it with either Hydrogen Peroxide or rubbing alcohol. Spray bottle works to dispense either although it may take a few tries. Seat belts...spent part of my time as an engineer as a seat belt engineer...the other part as an airbag engineer. Seen enough crash dummies hit their heads enough that I'm convinced. Mark Wallace 81 Wag ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:51:38 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Mold in Jeep and seat belts I boil some ammonia inside, then let it dry out with a heater (if it's raining) Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Mold in Jeep and seat belts > Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 01:48:13 -0500 > From: wallacem7-at-aol.com > > couple of thoughts on mold in a Jeep. If you really want to know what it is > there are labs that will analyze it from a tape pull sample and they will tell > you genus and species and what specifically it will take to kill it. Out here > it's maybe $40. Or you can take a few other options...UV from the sun will > kill it if you can get it apart, dried out and exposed to the sun, or you can > wash it with either Hydrogen Peroxide or rubbing alcohol. Spray bottle works > to dispense either although it may take a few tries. > > Seat belts...spent part of my time as an engineer as a seat belt > engineer...the other part as an airbag engineer. Seen enough crash dummies hit > their heads enough that I'm convinced. > > Mark Wallace > 81 Wag _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 23:19:52 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes all the more reason for me to love Diesels. :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sat, 6 Feb 2010, Jim Blair wrote: # Be careful you use O2 sensor safe TBI cleaner as many carb cleaners have # silicon in their spray to lube linkages and that will kill your O2 sensor(s) # (I found out the hard -at-$$ way years ago) # # # From: Ed Kummel # Subject: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes # # There's a really telling statement in this blurb: # "crankcase vapour flow can be caused by an incorrect PCV valve" # The 4.0L Jeep engines are notorious for having PCV issues. That hard vacuum # tube that leads from the valve cover regularly gets clogged that causes the # PCV system to no longer work. Some carb cleaner will usually unclog this # tube. # Ed # _________________________________________________________________ # Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. # http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 08:34:11 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes Because you don't have to spray them with cleaner? ;) Newer diesel rigs run both O2 sensors and a catalytic converter. Some sprays can damage converters too. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 - ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 23:19:52 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > CC: xj-at-digest.net; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes > > all the more reason for me to love Diesels. :) > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Sat, 6 Feb 2010, Jim Blair wrote: > > # Be careful you use O2 sensor safe TBI cleaner as many carb cleaners have > # silicon in their spray to lube linkages and that will kill your O2 sensor(s) > # (I found out the hard -at-$$ way years ago) > # > # > # From: Ed Kummel > # Subject: Re: xj: ernest emissions episodes > # > # There's a really telling statement in this blurb: > # "crankcase vapour flow can be caused by an incorrect PCV valve" > # The 4.0L Jeep engines are notorious for having PCV issues. That hard vacuum > # tube that leads from the valve cover regularly gets clogged that causes the > # PCV system to no longer work. Some carb cleaner will usually unclog this > # tube. > # Ed > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > # http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ > # _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 17:59:33 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: fsj: RE: xj: ernest challenge; high NO and CO; likely causes? Arrrgh, check this diagram: http://picasaweb.google.com/jeepmr/FSJ#5424433585857178818 Low gas delivery can yield to high HC and high CO and low O2, but in your case it does not explain high NOx, unless the cat if failing and cannot handle the excess HC. As said, it could be a lean condition with the high ethanol content.... do your own sniff test.... does the exhaust really smell gassy? the temp is a good one, an infrared thermometer is useful, but slightly touching the engine outlet coolant hose.... it should not be comfortable to the touch. As said the O2 sensor is the next suspect in computer controlled engine management. We used the state assistance for another collectors car when the tank pressure test failed.... The smog station billed under $400 for some hoses related to the vapor canister which in that old benz is very tricky, and we were glad to pay the $100. The catalytic converter state certified is definitively another scam, which I am not sure if the $100 would cover the $100 flat fee. A said try the easy (inexpensive) things first, PCV, MAP hose, and any vacuum related hoses to make sure that there is no leak. How is your gas consumption? Cheers Michel 74 wag, 85 Gwag > From: carnuck > Subject: fsj: RE: xj: smog challenge; high NO and CO; likely causes? > The other thing I have seen is a low thermostat case high CO readings at low > speed and idle. > > From: ernest breakfield > new challenge; our '94 XJ (4.0, 235K miles) just failed smog for the > first time ever; both NO and CO readings were out of acceptable range -at- > 15MPH, while only NO was high -at- 25MPH on the roller test (though it was > *very* close* to the limit). HC readings were well within the allowable > amounts at both speeds. > > 15MPH 25MPH > %CO2 14.4 14.5 > %O2 0.0 0.0 > HC 48 (89 max) 38 (54 max) > CO 1.08 (0.66 max) 1.04 (0.80 max) > NO 633 (517 max) 767 (770 max) > > > reading around, i haven't found a simple clear answer as to what the > causes of this might be, and some of the shops i've talked to seem to be > taking a "guess and shotgun" approach as to how to deal with it. > > for reference; oil had been changed ~50 miles earlier; has been Red > Line synthetic for most of the last 200K miles. > vehicle had been driven at mostly highway speeds for almost an hour > immediately before the test, and didn't sit for more than a few minutes > before it went on the rollers... but it was a rainy day and everything > was quite wet. > have since changed the Air Filter and done a Seafoam treatment just > on the chance that it might help clear out some gunk build-up in the > combustion chamber (2/3 down the throttle body and 1/3 in the fuel); the > smoke cloud created would have been the envy of James Bond, and it > actually seems to have evened out the idle a bit. > did some preliminary banging around on the exhaust system, but don't > seem to have any undue rattles indicating any obviously broken internal > bits. > TPS, O2 sensor have been there for probably ~100K+ miles, as has the > set of injectors that's in there now. > have a fresh fuel filter that i plan to put in (as part of a general > overdue tune-up). > have a fresh set of plugs that i plan to put in when i take out the > ones that are in there to 'read' them to see if there's any clues there. > > can anyone point me to a clear simple listing of what the causes are > likely to be for each of these parameters being over these limits? i'm > not fond of guesses when the guys who are making the guesses are making > money off of it whether they're solving the problem or not, and would > prefer to educate myself further on the topic before going to talk with > the Smog repair folk. > > we do have a program here in California to provide financial > assistance for repair of smog-failure related items (State pays up to > $500 after you pay the first $100), and although this vehicle qualifies, > i don't want to have to get into that if it's something simple and/or > that i should be able to take care of myself. there's (yet another) new > law now regarding the certification of Catalytic Converters, and they've > suddenly become even more expensive; if that's going to be part of what > needs to be replaced, i want to make sure that the Government money gets > spent on that and i do what i can myself in a more cost-effective manner > beforehand. > > any hints; tips clues appreciated! > > > cheers! > e > _________________________________________________________________ > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:59:22 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: monday morning fotos got some pictures of my latest project this morning: http://johnmeister.com/DIESELS/1981-VW-Diesel-Pickup/2010-Feb-08-GTI-spoiler/ALL.html looks like I'm caught up on repairs... the '99 WJ needs a heater core, but has for some time... that's about it. wow... nice... well, still need to finish the glow plug work on the 300D... and sell off the remaining xj & 4.0L parts... and extra vw parts... :) john -o|||||o- city/hwy engine/trans/xfr - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1981 VW Rabbit Pickup 35/45 mpg 1.6L Diesel/5spd (Earl) 1991 Mercedes 300D (124) 30/39 mpg 2.5L Turbo Diesel/AT (Shadowfax) 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee (WJ) 14/21 mpg 4.7L V8/45RFE/NV247 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee (WJ) 16/20 mpg 4.0L I6/42RE/NV242 <-- For Sale - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1975 Jeep J10 long bed (SJ) hydraulic dump trailer - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1983 Jeep J10 Stepside (SJ) (Superdawg)- under construction getting '80 Scout SD33T Diesel, TF727/NP208 mpg: 20/24 expected - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -o|||||o- http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3528 **************************