From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Apr 21 09:56:41 2010 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, April 21 2010 Volume 01 : Number 3567 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:58:47 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french I hope that engineering design practice didn't follow through to their aerospace and building industries... oh, wait, didn't the airport in paris fall down? ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Michel Balea wrote: # The worst part of the hydraulic is "one pump" for all hydraulic system, the # pump goes, so do the brakes, the steering the suspension and now you have a # real lowrider. # # The neat part about the suspension was the tire replacement position, it # elevated the car so high that you could do without a jack, but I think you had # to pop the rear fender to remove the rear wheel. I never borrowed one for that # long, but it was good for driving thru the fields, yep off roading in a # citroen and yes it was front wheel drive since 1955, the successor of the # traction avant a true adventure, the first front wheel drive car designed in # 1936ish. # # International engagement in the car industry is quite an adventure, designing # bearings with the british, at some point the OD was standard and the ID # metric.... until the brits went metric, but they have not adopted the euro # yet. # # Cheers # # Michel # # # # From: carnuck-at-hotmail.com # To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net # Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero # Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:48:08 -0700 # # # # # # # # # I had a Citroen with that combined suspension and drive system that was # hydraulic. When it popped a leak, all that Ca$trol fluid leaked out and it # co$t about $250 to replace (now it's more) Some people substituted ATF but the # seals would blow out. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # # # # > From: mbalea-at-hotmail.com # > To: dan-at-black.org; fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero # > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:32:10 +0000 # > # > They should have asked the french to design it, Citroen has it on their top # of # > the line vehicles since.... 1960 or so on the DS which was a gasser # > # > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeVnnCdjv8&NR=1 # > # > youtube is full of various demos # > # > and the CX with the 2.5 Diesel turbo for John # > # > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8HxK6ypjgw&feature=related # > # > Michel # > 74wag # > # > > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:45:56 -0500 # > > Subject: fsj: 2011 GChero # > > From: dan # > > Air suspension? # > > Sheesh, if you _really_ want to do something like that, do it right -- # > > maybe some hydraulic gimmick or something. But air shocks have never # > > been a good solution and likely never will be. # > # > _________________________________________________________________ # > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your # inbox. # > # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL # > :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 # # The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get # started. # _________________________________________________________________ # Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL # :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:49:18 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french Indeed, terminal 2E roof collapsed, in that case, I had to research it, but it is in french, and the legalese is a piece of passing the buck. The architect did the design, the structures and the concrete, and the support, but they claim that it was the responsability of the contractor to make sure that the material used could bear w the design. In this case the concrete started to crack due to the heat/cold cycle, some support beam did not have enough reinforcement, and apparently the concrete cracked enough to help the beam collapse, there was not enough redondancy. It is not the job of the architect to do resistance calculations, but the engineers, which the architects are not. Michel > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:58:47 -0700 > From: john > I hope that engineering design practice didn't follow through to their > aerospace and building industries... oh, wait, didn't the airport > in paris fall down? > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Michel Balea wrote: > > # The worst part of the hydraulic is "one pump" for all hydraulic system, the > # pump goes, so do the brakes, the steering the suspension and now you have a > # real lowrider. > # > # The neat part about the suspension was the tire replacement position, it > # elevated the car so high that you could do without a jack, but I think you had > # to pop the rear fender to remove the rear wheel. I never borrowed one for that > # long, but it was good for driving thru the fields, yep off roading in a > # citroen and yes it was front wheel drive since 1955, the successor of the > # traction avant a true adventure, the first front wheel drive car designed in > # 1936ish. > # > # International engagement in the car industry is quite an adventure, designing > # bearings with the british, at some point the OD was standard and the ID > # metric.... until the brits went metric, but they have not adopted the euro > # yet. > # > # Cheers > # > # Michel > # > # > # > # From: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > # To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net > # Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero > # Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:48:08 -0700 > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # I had a Citroen with that combined suspension and drive system that was > # hydraulic. When it popped a leak, all that Ca$trol fluid leaked out and it > # co$t about $250 to replace (now it's more) Some people substituted ATF but the > # seals would blow out. > # > # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > # > # > # > # > # > From: mbalea-at-hotmail.com > # > To: dan-at-black.org; fsj-at-digest.net > # > Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero > # > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:32:10 +0000 > # > > # > They should have asked the french to design it, Citroen has it on their top > # of > # > the line vehicles since.... 1960 or so on the DS which was a gasser > # > > # > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeVnnCdjv8&NR=1 > # > > # > youtube is full of various demos > # > > # > and the CX with the 2.5 Diesel turbo for John > # > > # > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8HxK6ypjgw&feature=related > # > > # > Michel > # > 74wag > # > > # > > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:45:56 -0500 > # > > Subject: fsj: 2011 GChero > # > > From: dan > # > > Air suspension? > # > > Sheesh, if you _really_ want to do something like that, do it right - -- > # > > maybe some hydraulic gimmick or something. But air shocks have never > # > > been a good solution and likely never will be. > # > > # > _________________________________________________________________ > # > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your > # inbox. > # > > # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL > # > :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > # > # The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get > # started. > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL > # :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > # _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:15:35 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french I thought that part of the building process was for a civil engineer to certifiy the architectual designs... many architects here in the states are, or employ, PE / ME or CE types... and then the folks that approve the plans must make sure that the materials used and design will work... if they don't know, here, they have a professional engineer (PE) verify the loads and design... then they'll mark up the prints and send them off to the contractor... I went through this when I built a house... we had some long spans, high ceilings, designed for a slate roof... had to beef up the foundation, walls, etc. to meet the weight loads and also seismic activity... ...so, in the case of the airport, the architects should have had a good design to start out with, the permit process should have verified it... the contractor builds to the approved drawings... the only way they would be liable is if they used improper materials, built to incorrect dimensions or did less than the design... so the guilty in that case are both the architect and the approving government agency and inspectors... the contractor was likely Sgt. Schultz... ;) he knew nothing, and wasn't supposed to... his job was to build to the prints... the approved prints... ...the weasels... the fault ultimately lies with the architects, who should have employed qualified engineers, but the final responsibility lies with the state, for not verfiying that the structure was built to code. ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Michel Balea wrote: # # Indeed, terminal 2E roof collapsed, in that case, I had to research it, but it is in french, and the legalese is a piece of passing the buck. # # The architect did the design, the structures and the concrete, and the support, but they claim that it was the responsability of the contractor to make sure that the material used could bear w the design. In this case the concrete started to crack due to the heat/cold cycle, some support beam did not have enough reinforcement, and apparently the concrete cracked enough to help the beam collapse, there was not enough redondancy. It is not the job of the architect to do resistance calculations, but the engineers, which the architects are not. # # Michel # # > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:58:47 -0700 # > From: john # # > I hope that engineering design practice didn't follow through to their # > aerospace and building industries... oh, wait, didn't the airport # > in paris fall down? # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Michel Balea wrote: # > # > # The worst part of the hydraulic is "one pump" for all hydraulic system, the # > # pump goes, so do the brakes, the steering the suspension and now you have a # > # real lowrider. # > # # > # The neat part about the suspension was the tire replacement position, it # > # elevated the car so high that you could do without a jack, but I think you had # > # to pop the rear fender to remove the rear wheel. I never borrowed one for that # > # long, but it was good for driving thru the fields, yep off roading in a # > # citroen and yes it was front wheel drive since 1955, the successor of the # > # traction avant a true adventure, the first front wheel drive car designed in # > # 1936ish. # > # # > # International engagement in the car industry is quite an adventure, designing # > # bearings with the british, at some point the OD was standard and the ID # > # metric.... until the brits went metric, but they have not adopted the euro # > # yet. # > # # > # Cheers # > # # > # Michel # > # # > # # > # # > # From: carnuck-at-hotmail.com # > # To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net # > # Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero # > # Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:48:08 -0700 # > # # > # # > # # > # # > # # > # # > # # > # # > # I had a Citroen with that combined suspension and drive system that was # > # hydraulic. When it popped a leak, all that Ca$trol fluid leaked out and it # > # co$t about $250 to replace (now it's more) Some people substituted ATF but the # > # seals would blow out. # > # # > # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # > # # > # # > # # > # # > # > From: mbalea-at-hotmail.com # > # > To: dan-at-black.org; fsj-at-digest.net # > # > Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero # > # > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:32:10 +0000 # > # > # > # > They should have asked the french to design it, Citroen has it on their top # > # of # > # > the line vehicles since.... 1960 or so on the DS which was a gasser # > # > # > # > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeVnnCdjv8&NR=1 # > # > # > # > youtube is full of various demos # > # > # > # > and the CX with the 2.5 Diesel turbo for John # > # > # > # > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8HxK6ypjgw&feature=related # > # > # > # > Michel # > # > 74wag # > # > # > # > > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:45:56 -0500 # > # > > Subject: fsj: 2011 GChero # > # > > From: dan # > # > > Air suspension? # > # > > Sheesh, if you _really_ want to do something like that, do it right -- # > # > > maybe some hydraulic gimmick or something. But air shocks have never # > # > > been a good solution and likely never will be. # > # > # > # > _________________________________________________________________ # > # > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your # > # inbox. # > # > # > # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL # > # > :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 # > # # > # The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get # > # started. # > # _________________________________________________________________ # > # Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. # > # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL # > # :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 # > # # # _________________________________________________________________ # Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:50:35 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french It happens here too http://www.komonews.com/news/local/90554479.html Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:15:35 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com > CC: carnuck-at-hotmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french > > I thought that part of the building process was for a civil engineer to certifiy > the architectual designs... many architects here in the states are, or employ, > PE / ME or CE types... and then the folks that approve the plans must make > sure that the materials used and design will work... if they don't know, here, > they have a professional engineer (PE) verify the loads and design... then they'll > mark up the prints and send them off to the contractor... I went through this > when I built a house... we had some long spans, high ceilings, designed for > a slate roof... had to beef up the foundation, walls, etc. to meet the weight > loads and also seismic activity... > > ...so, in the case of the airport, the architects should have had a good design > to start out with, the permit process should have verified it... the contractor > builds to the approved drawings... the only way they would be liable is if they > used improper materials, built to incorrect dimensions or did less than the design... > > so the guilty in that case are both the architect and the approving government agency > and inspectors... the contractor was likely Sgt. Schultz... ;) he knew nothing, > and wasn't supposed to... his job was to build to the prints... the approved prints... > > ...the weasels... the fault ultimately lies with the architects, who should have > employed qualified engineers, but the final responsibility lies with the state, > for not verfiying that the structure was built to code. > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Michel Balea wrote: > > # > # Indeed, terminal 2E roof collapsed, in that case, I had to research it, but it is in french, and the legalese is a piece of passing the buck. > # > # The architect did the design, the structures and the concrete, and the support, but they claim that it was the responsability of the contractor to make sure that the material used could bear w the design. In this case the concrete started to crack due to the heat/cold cycle, some support beam did not have enough reinforcement, and apparently the concrete cracked enough to help the beam collapse, there was not enough redondancy. It is not the job of the architect to do resistance calculations, but the engineers, which the architects are not. > # > # Michel > # > # > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:58:47 -0700 > # > From: john > # > # > I hope that engineering design practice didn't follow through to their > # > aerospace and building industries... oh, wait, didn't the airport > # > in paris fall down? > # > > # > ----- > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > > # > > # > On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Michel Balea wrote: > # > > # > # The worst part of the hydraulic is "one pump" for all hydraulic system, the > # > # pump goes, so do the brakes, the steering the suspension and now you have a > # > # real lowrider. > # > # > # > # The neat part about the suspension was the tire replacement position, it > # > # elevated the car so high that you could do without a jack, but I think you had > # > # to pop the rear fender to remove the rear wheel. I never borrowed one for that > # > # long, but it was good for driving thru the fields, yep off roading in a > # > # citroen and yes it was front wheel drive since 1955, the successor of the > # > # traction avant a true adventure, the first front wheel drive car designed in > # > # 1936ish. > # > # > # > # International engagement in the car industry is quite an adventure, designing > # > # bearings with the british, at some point the OD was standard and the ID > # > # metric.... until the brits went metric, but they have not adopted the euro > # > # yet. > # > # > # > # Cheers > # > # > # > # Michel > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # From: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > # > # To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net > # > # Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero > # > # Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:48:08 -0700 > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # I had a Citroen with that combined suspension and drive system that was > # > # hydraulic. When it popped a leak, all that Ca$trol fluid leaked out and it > # > # co$t about $250 to replace (now it's more) Some people substituted ATF but the > # > # seals would blow out. > # > # > # > # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > From: mbalea-at-hotmail.com > # > # > To: dan-at-black.org; fsj-at-digest.net > # > # > Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero > # > # > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:32:10 +0000 > # > # > > # > # > They should have asked the french to design it, Citroen has it on their top > # > # of > # > # > the line vehicles since.... 1960 or so on the DS which was a gasser > # > # > > # > # > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeVnnCdjv8&NR=1 > # > # > > # > # > youtube is full of various demos > # > # > > # > # > and the CX with the 2.5 Diesel turbo for John > # > # > > # > # > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8HxK6ypjgw&feature=related > # > # > > # > # > Michel > # > # > 74wag > # > # > > # > # > > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:45:56 -0500 > # > # > > Subject: fsj: 2011 GChero > # > # > > From: dan > # > # > > Air suspension? > # > # > > Sheesh, if you _really_ want to do something like that, do it right -- > # > # > > maybe some hydraulic gimmick or something. But air shocks have never > # > # > > been a good solution and likely never will be. > # > # > > # > # > _________________________________________________________________ > # > # > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your > # > # inbox. > # > # > > # > # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL > # > # > :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > # > # > # > # The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get > # > # started. > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # > # Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > # > # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL > # > # :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > # > # > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > # http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID2832 6::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3567 **************************