From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Aug 30 09:53:50 2010 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, August 30 2010 Volume 01 : Number 3619 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Header install tips? Re: fsj: Header install tips? Re: fsj: Header install tips? Re: fsj: Header install tips? Re: fsj: Header install tips? fsj: exhaust detail Re: fsj: Header install tips? Re: fsj: exhaust detail FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:30:35 -0700 (PDT) From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: Header install tips? Hi all. Doing some work on the Waggie and it occurs that maybe I should let this 360 breathe a bit better. I have this 4bbl on the Performer intake and it seems to me that it is likely being choked by the OEM exhaust. Or no?? Opinions? I'm thinking a set of headers that would let me maintain a 3" diameter all the way back, but I'm realizing now that after all these years I've never actually installed headers on anything I've owned... Occurs to me that there must be some kind of crossover to make both dump into one exhaust on these beasts, as the gas tank pretty much hogs the whole drivers side... Anyone been there, done that with a set of headers on an SJ and want to chime in? Installing the tranny over Labor Day weekend. Would like an exhaust upgrade to be part of the weekend... JeepNut - ---------------------------------------------------------- '92 Cherokee Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K miles.... '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. '87 Street Comanche #24/100. In storage. '88 Grand Wagoneer - '81 AMC 360 - -.030 over- Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, TFI System upgrade, TF727 - -mild kit- NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless extended brake lines, ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 14 Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:47:38 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? you don't want headers... 1) they create additional heat in the engine bay 2) they work loose unless you spend money on aircraft fasteners 3) they create additional noise 4) they really don't do much until you get to around 4,000 rpm 5) stock manifolds help develop torque at the lower rpms 6) stock manifolds require only occassional tightening 7) stock manifolds don't add as much heat to the engine bay 8) stock manifolds do not interfere with steering 9) stock manifolds solve the problem of connecting both sides. If you want to uncork the engine a bit, go with a 3" exhaust after the collector and get a three chamber flowmaster... the dynaflows are noisy and rattle... a two chamber flowmaster would be too noisy. even a 2.5" exhaust system will work well... you could run a dual exhaust setup, but a large single exhaust works as well and is less complicated on a 4x4. I've done headers, free flowing, stock... the free flowing larger pipe in stock config seems to be about the best of all worlds. remember your 360's peak power is around 1,800 to 2,000 rpm... any benefits of a header system won't kick in until 2x that speed... the only reason to port/polish/header etc. is when you start pushing power through at higher rpms... like 4,500 to 6,000 rpm... your stock 360 won't be happy up there... you want grunt, low end power... a good ignition system, a nice edelbrock performer intake and 1406 with a nice 3" exhaust will work nicely for you... on my '81 I got it up to ALMOST 13 mpg that way. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, JeepNut wrote: # Hi all. # Doing some work on the Waggie and it occurs that maybe I should let # this 360 breathe a bit better. I have this 4bbl on the Performer intake and # it seems to me that it is likely being choked by the OEM exhaust. Or no?? # Opinions? # # I'm thinking a set of headers that would let me maintain a 3" # diameter all the way back, but I'm realizing now that after all these years # I've never actually installed headers on anything I've owned... # # Occurs to me # that there must be some kind of crossover to make both dump into one exhaust # on these beasts, as the gas tank pretty much hogs the whole drivers side... # Anyone been there, done that with a set of headers on an SJ and want to chime # in? # Installing the tranny over Labor Day weekend. Would like an exhaust # upgrade to be part of the weekend... # # JeepNut # ---------------------------------------------------------- # # '92 Cherokee # Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of # # the grandkids in 2009 -at- # 270K miles.... # # '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. # # '87 # Street Comanche #24/100. In storage. # # '88 Grand Wagoneer # # - '81 AMC 360 # -.030 over- Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, # # TFI System upgrade, TF727 # -mild kit- NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- # # B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, # stainless extended brake lines, # # ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot # 33x12.5x15 # # 14 Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. # ---------------------------------------------------------- # # Registered Linux # user #287453 # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:27:12 -0500 From: Kim Tesar Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? My understanding from previous posts is that headers are not the first place to put your money. AMC stock manifolds are actually pretty efficient. Stock manifolds last longer. Hi Flow Cat and straight back pipe to exit in the low pressure zone would be first. - - Landon ///////////// On Aug 29, 2010, at 10:47 PM, john wrote: > you don't want headers... > > 1) they create additional heat in the engine bay > 2) they work loose unless you spend money on aircraft fasteners > 3) they create additional noise > 4) they really don't do much until you get to around 4,000 rpm > 5) stock manifolds help develop torque at the lower rpms > 6) stock manifolds require only occassional tightening > 7) stock manifolds don't add as much heat to the engine bay > 8) stock manifolds do not interfere with steering > 9) stock manifolds solve the problem of connecting both sides. > > > If you want to uncork the engine a bit, go with a 3" exhaust > after the collector and get a three chamber flowmaster... the > dynaflows are noisy and rattle... a two chamber flowmaster would > be too noisy. > > even a 2.5" exhaust system will work well... you could run a dual > exhaust setup, but a large single exhaust works as well and is less > complicated on a 4x4. > > I've done headers, free flowing, stock... the free flowing larger > pipe in stock config seems to be about the best of all worlds. > > remember your 360's peak power is around 1,800 to 2,000 rpm... any > benefits of a header system won't kick in until 2x that speed... > > the only reason to port/polish/header etc. is when you start pushing > power through at higher rpms... like 4,500 to 6,000 rpm... your > stock 360 won't be happy up there... > > you want grunt, low end power... > > a good ignition system, a nice edelbrock performer intake and 1406 > with a nice 3" exhaust will work nicely for you... on my '81 I got > it up > to ALMOST 13 mpg that way. :) > > john > > > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, JeepNut wrote: > > # Hi all. > # Doing some work on the Waggie and it occurs that maybe I should let > # this 360 breathe a bit better. I have this 4bbl on the > Performer intake and > # it seems to me that it is likely being choked by the OEM > exhaust. Or no?? > # Opinions? > # > # I'm thinking a set of headers that would let me maintain a 3" > # diameter all the way back, but I'm realizing now that after all > these years > # I've never actually installed headers on anything I've owned... > # > # Occurs to me > # that there must be some kind of crossover to make both dump into > one exhaust > # on these beasts, as the gas tank pretty much hogs the whole > drivers side... > # Anyone been there, done that with a set of headers on an SJ and > want to chime > # in? > # Installing the tranny over Labor Day weekend. Would like an > exhaust > # upgrade to be part of the weekend... > # > # JeepNut > # ---------------------------------------------------------- > # > # '92 Cherokee > # Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of > # > # the grandkids in 2009 -at- > # 270K miles.... > # > # '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. > # > # '87 > # Street Comanche #24/100. In storage. > # > # '88 Grand Wagoneer > # > # - '81 AMC 360 > # -.030 over- Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, > # > # TFI System upgrade, TF727 > # -mild kit- NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- > # > # B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, > # stainless extended brake lines, > # > # ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot > # 33x12.5x15 > # > # 14 Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. > # ---------------------------------------------------------- > # > # Registered Linux > # user #287453 > # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 00:31:01 -0500 From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 22:47, john wrote: > you don't want headers... > > 1) they create additional heat in the engine bay Umm, maybe, but I never had any problems. > 2) they work loose unless you spend money on aircraft fasteners Yes. And that's a pain. > 3) they create additional noise Yeah, that's part of the point for some of us. ;) But it's not much different. > 4) they really don't do much until you get to around 4,000 rpm Meh, I'd say lower than that, but they didn't make as big a difference as I expected and hoped. > 5) stock manifolds help develop torque at the lower rpms This is essentially part of point #4. > 6) stock manifolds require only occassional tightening This is essentially part of point #2. > 7) stock manifolds don't add as much heat to the engine bay This _is_ point #1. > 8) stock manifolds do not interfere with steering Huh? Neither do my headers. > 9) stock manifolds solve the problem of connecting both sides. You have the same issue with manifolds or headers. If you get stock manifolds, then you can use the stock crossover, but you can also get the proper crossover / y-pipe for the headers. I got a kit -- IIRC, Edelbrock -- that worked just fine. > If you want to uncork the engine a bit, go with a 3" exhaust > after the collector and get a three chamber flowmaster... the > dynaflows are noisy and rattle... a two chamber flowmaster would > be too noisy. IIRC, I got the Borla XR1 muffler and some high-flow cat. Each was probably $150 or so at Summit. Both were 3" input and output. (The headers go through a Y that ends with a 2.5" diameter, so there's a section to go from the 2.5" to 3" -- then it's 3" all the way back.) Everything from the cat back is stainless, and it definitely lasted longer. > even a 2.5" exhaust system will work well... you could run a dual > exhaust setup, but a large single exhaust works as well and is less > complicated on a 4x4. Yeah, getting around the fuel tank would be annoying. I considered that briefly. > a good ignition system, a nice edelbrock performer intake and 1406 > with a nice 3" exhaust will work nicely for you... on my '81 I got it up > to ALMOST 13 mpg that way. :) I'd second that. I don't think _all_ John's reasons were valid, and some only count as one point, but the headers really aren't worth the hassle of re-tightening them all the time. Either way, though, I'd use copper gaskets (for the manifolds or headers) as long as you have them off anyway. Those things rock. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:29:28 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? yes, there were redundancies... and you're right, probably closer to 3,500 rpm... maybe a tad lower, but still, well above peak torque, and not all headers are the same... but then again I've usually done stuff on custom swaps... no matter what, headers aren't worth the trouble. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Dan Black wrote: # On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 22:47, john wrote: # > you don't want headers... # > # > 1) they create additional heat in the engine bay # # Umm, maybe, but I never had any problems. # # > 2) they work loose unless you spend money on aircraft fasteners # # Yes. And that's a pain. # # > 3) they create additional noise # # Yeah, that's part of the point for some of us. ;) But it's not much # different. # # > 4) they really don't do much until you get to around 4,000 rpm # # Meh, I'd say lower than that, but they didn't make as big a difference # as I expected and hoped. # # > 5) stock manifolds help develop torque at the lower rpms # # This is essentially part of point #4. # # > 6) stock manifolds require only occassional tightening # # This is essentially part of point #2. # # > 7) stock manifolds don't add as much heat to the engine bay # # This _is_ point #1. # # > 8) stock manifolds do not interfere with steering # # Huh? Neither do my headers. # # > 9) stock manifolds solve the problem of connecting both sides. # # You have the same issue with manifolds or headers. If you get stock # manifolds, then you can use the stock crossover, but you can also get # the proper crossover / y-pipe for the headers. I got a kit -- IIRC, # Edelbrock -- that worked just fine. # # > If you want to uncork the engine a bit, go with a 3" exhaust # > after the collector and get a three chamber flowmaster... the # > dynaflows are noisy and rattle... a two chamber flowmaster would # > be too noisy. # # IIRC, I got the Borla XR1 muffler and some high-flow cat. Each was # probably $150 or so at Summit. Both were 3" input and output. (The # headers go through a Y that ends with a 2.5" diameter, so there's a # section to go from the 2.5" to 3" -- then it's 3" all the way back.) # Everything from the cat back is stainless, and it definitely lasted # longer. # # > even a 2.5" exhaust system will work well... you could run a dual # > exhaust setup, but a large single exhaust works as well and is less # > complicated on a 4x4. # # Yeah, getting around the fuel tank would be annoying. I considered # that briefly. # # > a good ignition system, a nice edelbrock performer intake and 1406 # > with a nice 3" exhaust will work nicely for you... on my '81 I got it up # > to ALMOST 13 mpg that way. :) # # I'd second that. I don't think _all_ John's reasons were valid, and # some only count as one point, but the headers really aren't worth the # hassle of re-tightening them all the time. # # Either way, though, I'd use copper gaskets (for the manifolds or # headers) as long as you have them off anyway. Those things rock. # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:03:56 -0700 (PDT) From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: exhaust detail OK so I'm seeing AutoZone Maremont exhaust Y pipes for $109. But the OReilly Wagner Y pipe is $144. I wonder what the difference is in a bent pipe. Can only imagine 2 things. 1. The pipe gauge or wall thickness. 2. The quality of the weld at the connection for the left pipe. Neither dealer can tell me what their mfg. spec is for the wall thickness. But I know Autozone parts can be wishy washy, I've been buying them for years. Wondering in this case tho, why should I pay more at O'Reilly or anywhere else for a pipe? Anyone? (with apologies to Jim...for most stuff I do get at NAPA but in this case, heck, it's just a pipe...) JeepNut - ---------------------------------------------------------- '92 Cherokee Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K miles.... '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. '87 Street Comanche #24/100. In storage. '88 Grand Wagoneer - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless extended brake lines, ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 14 Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:34:05 -0700 (PDT) From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? Appreciate the feedback one and all. Sage advice it sounds like to me. I'll spend that money elsewhere I'm sure. Talked to a guy at a shop here in town. Says he used to race a Javelin w/ a 401 and actually got WORSE times when he went to a 3" exhaust. (and was shocked) Agrees that the OEM manifolds move air just fine and recommended that since I'm interested more in torque than H/P, to stay with 2.5" all the way out with a nice Flowmaster in the middle. Sounds like a plan unless good arguments can be made to the contrary. JeepNut - ---------------------------------------------------------- '92 Cherokee Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K miles.... '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. '87 Street Comanche #24/100. In storage. '88 Grand Wagoneer - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless extended brake lines, ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 14 Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 - --- On Mon, 8/30/10, john wrote: > From: john > Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? > To: "Dan Black" > Cc: "Full Size Jeeps" > Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 1:29 AM > yes, there were redundancies... and > you're right, probably closer > to 3,500 rpm... maybe a tad lower, but still, well above > peak torque, > and not all headers are the same... but then again I've > usually done > stuff on custom swaps... > > no matter what, headers aren't worth the trouble. > > john > > > > ----- > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where > Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Dan Black wrote: > > # On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 22:47, john > wrote: > # > you don't want headers... > # > > # > 1) they create additional heat in the engine bay > # > # Umm, maybe, but I never had any problems. > # > # > 2) they work loose unless you spend money on > aircraft fasteners > # > # Yes. And that's a pain. > # > # > 3) they create additional noise > # > # Yeah, that's part of the point for some of us. > ;) But it's not much > # different. > # > # > 4) they really don't do much until you get to > around 4,000 rpm > # > # Meh, I'd say lower than that, but they didn't make as > big a difference > # as I expected and hoped. > # > # > 5) stock manifolds help develop torque at the lower > rpms > # > # This is essentially part of point #4. > # > # > 6) stock manifolds require only occassional > tightening > # > # This is essentially part of point #2. > # > # > 7) stock manifolds don't add as much heat to the > engine bay > # > # This _is_ point #1. > # > # > 8) stock manifolds do not interfere with steering > # > # Huh? Neither do my headers. > # > # > 9) stock manifolds solve the problem of connecting > both sides. > # > # You have the same issue with manifolds or headers. > If you get stock > # manifolds, then you can use the stock crossover, but you > can also get > # the proper crossover / y-pipe for the headers. I > got a kit -- IIRC, > # Edelbrock -- that worked just fine. > # > # > If you want to uncork the engine a bit, go with a > 3" exhaust > # > after the collector and get a three chamber > flowmaster... the > # > dynaflows are noisy and rattle... a two chamber > flowmaster would > # > be too noisy. > # > # IIRC, I got the Borla XR1 muffler and some high-flow > cat. Each was > # probably $150 or so at Summit. Both were 3" input > and output. (The > # headers go through a Y that ends with a 2.5" diameter, > so there's a > # section to go from the 2.5" to 3" -- then it's 3" all > the way back.) > # Everything from the cat back is stainless, and it > definitely lasted > # longer. > # > # > even a 2.5" exhaust system will work well... you > could run a dual > # > exhaust setup, but a large single exhaust works as > well and is less > # > complicated on a 4x4. > # > # Yeah, getting around the fuel tank would be > annoying. I considered > # that briefly. > # > # > a good ignition system, a nice edelbrock performer > intake and 1406 > # > with a nice 3" exhaust will work nicely for you... > on my '81 I got it up > # > to ALMOST 13 mpg that way. :) > # > # I'd second that. I don't think _all_ John's > reasons were valid, and > # some only count as one point, but the headers really > aren't worth the > # hassle of re-tightening them all the time. > # > # Either way, though, I'd use copper gaskets (for the > manifolds or > # headers) as long as you have them off anyway. > Those things rock. > # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:52:42 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: exhaust detail the bends make a big difference, if the bends and radius have fewer restrictions and "crinkles" it's better for flow... of course it's hard to tell which one is better... it's close enough to the manifold that it won't rust out on you. on my 6.5L Diesel Blazer the stock down pipe had a big dent in it to clear the frame, was a major restriction... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, JeepNut wrote: # OK so I'm seeing AutoZone Maremont exhaust Y pipes for $109. # But the OReilly Wagner Y pipe is $144. # I wonder what the difference is in a bent pipe. Can only imagine 2 things. # # 1. The pipe gauge or wall thickness. # 2. The quality of the weld at the connection for the left pipe. # # Neither dealer can tell me what their mfg. spec is for the wall thickness. # But I know Autozone parts can be wishy washy, I've been buying them for years. # # Wondering in this case tho, why should I pay more at O'Reilly or anywhere else for a pipe? Anyone? # # (with apologies to Jim...for most stuff I do get at NAPA but in this case, heck, it's just a pipe...) # # JeepNut # ---------------------------------------------------------- # '92 Cherokee Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of # the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K miles.... # '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. # '87 Street Comanche #24/100. In storage. # '88 Grand Wagoneer # - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, # TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- # B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless extended brake lines, # ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 # 14 Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. # ---------------------------------------------------------- # Registered Linux user #287453 # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3619 **************************