From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Nov 13 08:10:34 2010 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, November 13 2010 Volume 01 : Number 3647 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's Re: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's RE: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's fsj: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. fsj: Re: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. Re: fsj: Re: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. RE: fsj: Re: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. fsj: Re: [AMC-list] AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:51:04 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's got it straight out of the book... the issue is it was introduced mid-year, that's why you are wrong, or think I'm wrong... because we're both kind of right... remember, it's a jeep thing, you won't understand. :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Jim Blair wrote: # # You're off a little bit there. 258 didn't come along till '71 and that year only it came with the small bell pattern of the 199 and earlier 232. In '72 it matched the AMC V8 (and later 4.0L) # # > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:58:20 -0800 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: wallacem7-at-aol.com # > CC: fsj-digest-at-digest.net # > Subject: Re: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's # > # > 1970 was an interesting year.. AMC acquired Jeep from Kaiser... that year # > you could get a 232, or a 258(which was the standard engine), a 304 or a # > 360, and from what I have read, you could still get the Dauntless Buick 350 # > V-8 in the 1414X Wagoneer, with "Limited Quality" or something like that... # > # > so it's possible that a 350 could be found in a '71... but knowing how # > jeeps and jeep owners are, anything is possible... :) # > # > concerning the 390, sounds like it jumped timing... didn't realize # > those were interference motors... unless someone put the wrong push # > rods in it... # > # > john ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:53:13 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's Montgomery Ward, are they still around? I used to work for them as a TV repairman in 1977... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Mark Wallace wrote: # I think it's hydraulic lifters, but I haven't bothered to pull one out yet. # The rockers are on shafts and they are non-adjustable. I am reading that they # way you set the valve lash is with different lengths of pushrods. I am also # reading that Ford 390's and Ford FE's in general tend to bend pushrods when # they are allowed to sit. They are saying marvel mystery oil in the engine oil # and marvel mystery oil in the gas. I have also read Automatic Trans # Fluid---which I have put in engine oil in the past, but my gut feeling is # telling me if I do ATF I'll end up with a leaking rear main and then I'll be # pulling a 390 in the cold. # # Now that I think about it when I woke my Wagoneer up from four years of being # dormant I used Chain-saw mix. Not on purpose, but because that's what was # kicking around. # # The engine is nothing overly special. It's got the Motorcraft two barrel that # looks like it's from the same family as the Wag's factory carb. The car is a # big old station Wagon...I think it's a 66 or 67. Not sure which. It's kind of # a cool old car and more importantly it's going to keep the Wolf back from the # door this month. # # A few months ago I pulled an engine out of a Nova that had been sitting in a # field (and was on Montgomery Ward bias plys) and put it into a Bel Air for the # same guy and that Chevy ran just fine. I have also been working on a 1950 # Cabover GMC for the same guy and it runs and drives without too much trouble. # # Mark # 81 Wag # # # # # # # # -----Original Message----- # From: john # To: Mark Wallace # Cc: carnuck-at-hotmail.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net # Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 11:01 pm # Subject: Re: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's # # # do you know if that thing has hydraulic or solid lifters? '69? would # likely be hydraulic... if it's like the 289 you adjusted the tappets, # if someone cranked them down that could cause them to bend... # # I had to adjust mine after running quaker state... # # you'd pull the valve cover off, back off the bolt until the tappet # started rattling, then you'd tighten it down until it just stopped, # then add 1/2 to 3/4 turn past that... # # if someone were to really crank those things down thinking it was # like an AMC 360 you'd have troubles... # # john # # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # On Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Mark Wallace wrote: # # # I don't really know the history on the car...someone had written a 2005 # date # # on the oil filter and he said a guy took the car to paint it and when he # # brought it back it was barely running. It may have been run low on oil. It # # left a trail when I moved it. The rocker arms more or less looked # # okay...although there was evidence of anti seize on the bolts that hold # the # # rocker shafts down telling me that they had been off at some time. Other # than # # that the engine looks like it really hasn't been monkeyed with...the # vacuum # # harness looked unmolested and the intake gasket said FoMoCo on it. The guy # I # # am working for right now has a bunch of collector cars # # # # Mark # # 81 Wag # # # # # # # # -----Original Message----- # # From: Jim Blair # # To: wallacem7-at-aol.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net # # Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 9:12 pm # # Subject: RE: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's # # # # # # Did the ford sit a long time? Sticky valves or over-revving are the only # thing # # that will do that besides a jumped timing chain. # # Sometimes though, badly worn rockers can let a pushrod slip out of it's # # cup, which leads to instant bending because it's trapped in the middle # when # # the rocker forces it's way back. # # # # > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net # # > Subject: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's # # > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:58:07 -0500 # # > From: wallacem7-at-aol.com # # > # # > I think the Buick 350 ran from '68 to '71. Not a bad engine and those # Full # # > Size Jeeps had the earlier dash which is kind of cool. There are a few # # kicking # # > around town here with 350's. You can find a quadrajet manifold off of a # # Buick # # > car of the same era. I have a friend with a 68 and getting parts can be # a # # > little confounding (I have heard him tell the parts counter guy that he # has # # a # # > '68 Skylark) # # > # # > I have used some of the aftermarket patch panels, specifically the # quarter # # > panel patches that are available at the vendors for body shops. They are # a # # > little long (you can hide the extra length behind the tailiight # assembly) # # and # # > don't fit great which is about par for the course for most of the patch # # panels # # > that I come across. Some of the Muscle Car stuff I am seeing today is # # really # # > nice, same for some of the British Sport Car stuff, but you pay a pretty # # penny # # > for it. # # > # # > A non Jeep question for some of you guys who have had Fords...I cracked # open # # a # # > 390 in an old Station Wagon today...ran like a bucket of bolts, didn't # seem # # to # # > pull any vacuum, had no power. I was working on an old leak on the # intake # # > manifold and found bent pushrods...I stopped counting at five. One # pushrod # # had # # > jumped and was in the valley. What could have caused this? How do I # prevent # # it # # > from happening again? # # > # # > Mark # # > 81 Wag # # = # # # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:48:26 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's Introduced for the '71 model year (when AMC officially took over) > Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:51:04 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > CC: wallacem7-at-aol.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's > > got it straight out of the book... the issue is it was introduced mid-year, that's why > you are wrong, or think I'm wrong... because we're both kind of right... remember, it's a jeep thing, > you won't understand. :) > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Jim Blair wrote: > > # > # You're off a little bit there. 258 didn't come along till '71 and that year only it came with the small bell pattern of the 199 and earlier 232. In '72 it matched the AMC V8 (and later 4.0L) > # > # > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:58:20 -0800 > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > # > To: wallacem7-at-aol.com > # > CC: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > # > Subject: Re: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's > # > > # > 1970 was an interesting year.. AMC acquired Jeep from Kaiser... that year > # > you could get a 232, or a 258(which was the standard engine), a 304 or a > # > 360, and from what I have read, you could still get the Dauntless Buick 350 > # > V-8 in the 1414X Wagoneer, with "Limited Quality" or something like that... > # > > # > so it's possible that a 350 could be found in a '71... but knowing how > # > jeeps and jeep owners are, anything is possible... :) > # > > # > concerning the 390, sounds like it jumped timing... didn't realize > # > those were interference motors... unless someone put the wrong push > # > rods in it... > # > > # > john ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 21:25:18 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. they took over in 1970. There appears to be some minor discrepancies in the record... some cite January, others February... :) Maybe someone can research the corporate records with the SEC if you'd like and confirm which month in 1970 this actually happened. I only opened two of my books... have more than a dozen that would confirm this, and likely a sales brochure as well... :) and remember also I was watching TV commercials and getting ready to drive when all this was happening... p.464 - Std Catalog of 4x4s - "American Motors acquired the Kaiser Jeep assets in January, 1970." p. 272 - Std Catalog of American Motors - "American Motors purchased Jeep, from Kaiser Industries, in February 1970." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Motors - American Motors (AMC) purchased Kaiser's Jeep operations in 1970 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Motors - "The company changed its name to Kaiser Jeep in 1963. By 1969, Kaiser Industries decided to leave the auto business, which was sold to American Motors in 1970. As part of the transaction, Kaiser acquired a 22% interest in AMC, which it later divested. Included in the sale was the General Products Division, which Kaiser had purchased from Studebaker in 1964 as it prepared to leave the auto business itself. AMC renamed the division AM General , which still operates today, and is best known as the manufacturer of the original High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle ((or Humvee), later called the Hummer H1." http://www.allpar.com/model/jeep/liberty-history.html http://www.best-jeep-guide.com/history-of-jeeps.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/American-Motors-Corporation/108155832550365 On 11/12/2010 8:48 PM, Jim Blair wrote: > Introduced for the '71 model year (when AMC officially took over) > > > Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:51:04 -0800 > > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > > CC: wallacem7-at-aol.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net > > Subject: RE: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's > > > > got it straight out of the book... the issue is it was introduced mid-year, > that's why > > you are wrong, or think I'm wrong... because we're both kind of right... > remember, it's a jeep thing, > > you won't understand. :) > > > > > > > > ----- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Jim Blair wrote: > > > > # > > # You're off a little bit there. 258 didn't come along till '71 and that > year only it came with the small bell pattern of the 199 and earlier 232. In > '72 it matched the AMC V8 (and later 4.0L) > > # > > # > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:58:20 -0800 > > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > > # > To: wallacem7-at-aol.com > > # > CC: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > > # > Subject: Re: fsj: Patch panels and Buick 350's > > # > > > # > 1970 was an interesting year.. AMC acquired Jeep from Kaiser... that year > > # > you could get a 232, or a 258(which was the standard engine), a 304 or a > > # > 360, and from what I have read, you could still get the Dauntless Buick 350 > > # > V-8 in the 1414X Wagoneer, with "Limited Quality" or something like that... > > # > > > # > so it's possible that a 350 could be found in a '71... but knowing how > > # > jeeps and jeep owners are, anything is possible... :) > > # > > > # > concerning the 390, sounds like it jumped timing... didn't realize > > # > those were interference motors... unless someone put the wrong push > > # > rods in it... > > # > > > # > john ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 01:19:39 -0500 From: Mark Wallace Subject: fsj: Re: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. And we can drive ourselves crazy over the little running change details that went from month to month. When you get that nutty about origionality when restoring stuff (like the guys who duplicate the factory inspection marks or even scratch the frame the same way the conveyor at the factory did) you can join a group of people called "Corvette Restorers" Keep in mind that the factory never worried too much about the enthusiast thirty years down the road. When you run out of the "right" part you just use the wrong one. The AMC V8 changeover likely occurred when they were either out of Buick V8's or when the Buick V8 contract ended. I think there was a period where both the Buick V8 and the AMC V8 ran concurrently. That likely had to do with what was available on any given day. I have definitely seen a Buick 350 in a 71 and my parents had a 72 with an AMC 360. When I was at Chrysler I worked around a handful of people who had been AMC guys in the 1960s, but there was nobody left that came from Kaiser Willys. The old AMC guys had a culture of doing a lot with a little. Even the engineering building was the left over Nash Kelvinator refrigerator plant that was built in the 20's. Bits of the old AMC records were here and there in file cabinets full of microfische. One old timer even gave me a factory assembly book that he had salted away two decades earlier. One of these days I should scan it and be a good custodian of the hobby. Mark Wallace 81 Wagoneer - -----Original Message----- From: john To: Jim Blair Cc: john-at-wagoneers.com; wallacem7-at-aol.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net; diesel john Sent: Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:25 pm Subject: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. they took over in 1970. There appears to be some minor discrepancies in the record... some cite January, others February... :) Maybe someone can research the corporate records with the SEC if you'd like and confirm which month in 1970 this actually happened. I only opened two of my books... have more than a dozen that would confirm this, and likely a sales brochure as well... :) and remember also I was watching TV commercials and getting ready to drive when all this was happening... p.464 - Std Catalog of 4x4s - "American Motors acquired the Kaiser Jeep assets in January, 1970." p. 272 - Std Catalog of American Motors - "American Motors purchased Jeep, from Kaiser Industries, in February 1970." -clip- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:56:43 -0600 From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Re: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. Also, back then, you could ask for options that weren't listed as options, and if it wasn't too hard, they'd often do it. IIRC, the '84 Mercury Grand Marquis my parents got didn't have the 351 as an option - -- just the 302. But they requested the 351, and Ford put one in from the factory. (Might've been a deal where it was an option for the Ford version for police cars or something, so it was easy to do.) For things like that, obviously you won't find them indexed "correctly" with parts suppliers, but you just tell them what you have. If they insist on knowing the car you have, you make up a car that had the option you're talking about. Ditto when you make your own mods. I put a 401 in my '88 GWag. Most 360 engine parts will still work, but if I'm getting engine parts and they insist on knowing the vehicle, I usually just say, "Let's call it a '74 Wagoneer with the 401." Or if I had problems with the flexplate, I'd call it something like a '72 Javelin (401 with TF727). (I'd look that one up first; I don't remember the year for sure.) On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 00:19, Mark Wallace wrote: > And we can drive ourselves crazy over the little running change details that > went from month to month. When you get that nutty about origionality when > restoring stuff (like the guys who duplicate the factory inspection marks or > even scratch the frame the same way the conveyor at the factory did) you can > join a group of people called "Corvette Restorers" > > Keep in mind that the factory never worried too much about the enthusiast > thirty years down the road. When you run out of the "right" part you just use > the wrong one. The AMC V8 changeover likely occurred when they were either out > of Buick V8's or when the Buick V8 contract ended. I think there was a period > where both the Buick V8 and the AMC V8 ran concurrently. That likely had to do > with what was available on any given day. > > I have definitely seen a Buick 350 in a 71 and my parents had a 72 with an AMC > 360. > > When I was at Chrysler I worked around a handful of people who had been AMC > guys in the 1960s, but there was nobody left that came from Kaiser Willys. The > old AMC guys had a culture of doing a lot with a little. Even the engineering > building was the left over Nash Kelvinator refrigerator plant that was built > in the 20's. Bits of the old AMC records were here and there in file cabinets > full of microfische. One old timer even gave me a factory assembly book that > he had salted away two decades earlier. One of these days I should scan it and > be a good custodian of the hobby. > > Mark Wallace > 81 Wagoneer > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: john > To: Jim Blair > Cc: john-at-wagoneers.com; wallacem7-at-aol.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net; diesel john > > Sent: Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:25 pm > Subject: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. > > > they took over in 1970. There appears to be some minor > discrepancies in the record... some cite January, others February... :) > Maybe someone can research the corporate records with the SEC if you'd > like and confirm which month in 1970 this actually happened. > > I only opened two of my books... have more than a dozen that would > confirm this, and likely a sales brochure as well... :) > and remember also I was watching TV commercials and getting ready to > drive when all this was happening... > > > p.464 - Std Catalog of 4x4s - "American Motors acquired the Kaiser Jeep > assets in January, 1970." > > p. 272 - Std Catalog of American Motors - "American Motors purchased > Jeep, from Kaiser Industries, > in February 1970." > > -clip- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:38:41 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. '72/73 is about all they did the 401 in the cars (due to emissions and HP regulations that kicked in) The 401 was available in '71 as well, but not with the 727. They had Borg Warner autos until '72. The crankshaft was changed to fit the 727 as well. They changed the way HP was rated in '72 as well to NET (all accessories attached) instead of Bulk. Insurance companies were freaking over the high HP numbers some motors were showing back then too. Dan wrote: Also, back then, you could ask for options that weren't listed as options, and if it wasn't too hard, they'd often do it. IIRC, the '84 Mercury Grand Marquis my parents got didn't have the 351 as an option - -- just the 302. But they requested the 351, and Ford put one in from the factory. (Might've been a deal where it was an option for the Ford version for police cars or something, so it was easy to do.) For things like that, obviously you won't find them indexed "correctly" with parts suppliers, but you just tell them what you have. If they insist on knowing the car you have, you make up a car that had the option you're talking about. Ditto when you make your own mods. I put a 401 in my '88 GWag. Most 360 engine parts will still work, but if I'm getting engine parts and they insist on knowing the vehicle, I usually just say, "Let's call it a '74 Wagoneer with the 401." Or if I had problems with the flexplate, I'd call it something like a '72 Javelin (401 with TF727). (I'd look that one up first; I don't remember the year for sure.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:59:03 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: Re: [AMC-list] AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. IIRC, production of the new 258 motors didn't begin till June of '70? Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 From: adh-at-an.bradford.ma.us (Sandwich Maker) To: amc-list-at-amc-list.com Subject: Re: [AMC-list] AMC acquired Jeep in 1970. Message-ID: <201011131245.oADCjIL29900-at-an.bradford.ma.us> " From: Jim Blair " " " OK, I guess I may have been wrong on the takeover date, but the 258 came in '71 didn't it? spot on; that year amc raised the deck and the 199/232 became the 232/258, still with small bell. jeep was forever ignoring model years and doing changes whenever they felt like it. i guess with the termination of hummer, the s. bend stude truck plant is gone? the military had already moved on from the very-long-running 2.5t and 5t trucks. or is there still sufficient military business supporting the hmmwv? ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3647 **************************