From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jan 21 20:59:07 2011 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, January 22 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3688 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: [db] MB Diesels as swap objects fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects RE: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects RE: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects fsj: some info on automatic trans RE: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:15:57 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] MB Diesels as swap objects no... that's the way they manage the heat on the seats... and I was wrong, it's only THREE computer modules... :) and maybe only TWO, depending on which of the THREE types of leather seats you have... I've had all three styles, currently have the Type I in my '99... they are the pleated ones, very nice... they Type II are decent, with some pillowing, while the type III are just flat leather. Or do I have that backwards? not looking THAT up... but, from the factory manual: The electronic modules that may affect heated seat system operation are as follows: 2 Body Control Module (BCM) - Refer to Body Control Module in the Description and Operation section of Group 8E - Instrument Panel Systems for more information. 2 Heated Seat Module (HSM) - Refer to Heated Seat Module in the Description and Operation section of this group for more information. 2 Memory Heated Seat Module (MHSM) - If the vehicle is equipped with the Memory System, refer to Memory Seat Module in the Memory System section of Group 8R - Power Seat Systems for more information. Refer to Power Seats Premium I/III in the Contents of Group 8W - Wiring Diagrams for complete circuit diagrams. Following are general descriptions of the major components in the heated seat system On 1/21/2011 1:34 PM, Eric Ditwiler wrote: > On Jan 21, 2011, at 12:56 PM, john wrote: > >> the heated seats used FOUR computers. > > One CPU in each seat? > - -- ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:38:45 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects "first kit will be for the RH32, then im not sure from there. Does AW4 bolt up to 4.0L 6 cylinder? thanks Nathan" a RH32 - that is a torqueflite 999 or 909 by my understanding... swapped email with the sales guy (nathan) today ... he wasn't aware of the AW4 used in the XJs from '87-'01... guess that makes sense though, the rh32 doesn't need a computer. only problem is no overdrive either. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, dave wrote: # http://mercedesdiesel4x4.com/default.aspx # "We are going to design kit to adapt the AX5 manual transmission found in # most 4 cylinder jeeps and an automatic transmission found in 6 cylinder # jeeps to the OM617 Mercedes turbo diesel. If there is a kit you want # designed let us know!" # # Hmmm so now I need to find a Mercedes OM617 engine huh? ;-) # # # later, # dave AKA vwdoc1 # # # -----Original Message----- # From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] # Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 2:57 PM # To: dave # Cc: xj-list; full size jeep list; diesel-benz list; WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com # Subject: MB Diesels as swap objects # # I should call those folks... # # http://mercedesdiesel4x4.com/default.aspx # # or even: # # http://www.dieselswapguys.com/?p=10 # # of course these kits assume a manual trans, I want one with an automatic. # # the issue is the flex plate, torque converter and bell housing... would want # to mate to either an AW4 or a 45RFE. (possibly the 42RE, but not eager on # that). # # there are manual boxes to control the shifing of the AW4, one of my son's # friends is an electrical engineer and made one with simple parts, easy # enough # to do, but it's quasi-manual... adapting the trans computer to the Diesel # would require a TPS (throttle position sensor), possibly a speed sensor, # and a kickdown of some kind. Not rocket science. I'll have to look at # the WJ computers to see what Rube Goldberg scheme they used in order to # touch # every one of the 8 to 10 computers on board... the heated seats used FOUR # computers. # # john # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, dave wrote: # # # I have seen some older MB Diesels going cheaply here due to rust. Now IF # I # # had a kit to install one in a WJ, I would consider assembling the parts. # # # # later, # # dave AKA vwdoc1 # # # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:23:57 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects 42RE stands for 4 speed (O/D) right hand starter electronically controlled. RH32 is 3 speed RH starter hydraulic controlled. It's too bad Dodge didn't make a 42RH version for AMC motors. (They did for Dodge small blocks '88 to '92, but not slant 6s or big blocks) If they make a crank adapter to go with the 999 flexplate, it should work with the AW4 as well (crank flange offset and pattern is the same for '72 to '90 4.2 and all 4.0L). The pilot hole in the crank for the trans may be different and need a sleeve (easily test fit to see) They would be far better off to make the MB diesel adapter to an AX-15 than the wimpy AX-5 (I killed 2 myself and I haven't killed a BA 10/5 yet!) If I had a MBZ bell and AX-15 bell, it shouldn't be hard to make an adapter to fit it with just a plate on the trans. (I have 2 AX-15s here for measurement but no bells) I do have a T5 bell with AMC pattern if they need something to take a measurement from. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:38:45 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: vwdoc1-at-gmail.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net; xj-at-digest.net; diesel-benz-at-digest.net; WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com > Subject: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects > > "first kit will be for the RH32, then im not sure from there. > Does AW4 bolt up to 4.0L 6 cylinder? > > thanks Nathan" > > > a RH32 - that is a torqueflite 999 or 909 by my understanding... > swapped email with the sales guy (nathan) today > ... he wasn't aware of the AW4 used in the XJs from '87-'01... > > guess that makes sense though, the rh32 doesn't need a computer. > only problem is no overdrive either. > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, dave wrote: > > # http://mercedesdiesel4x4.com/default.aspx > # "We are going to design kit to adapt the AX5 manual transmission found in > # most 4 cylinder jeeps and an automatic transmission found in 6 cylinder > # jeeps to the OM617 Mercedes turbo diesel. If there is a kit you want > # designed let us know!" > # > # Hmmm so now I need to find a Mercedes OM617 engine huh? ;-) > # > # > # later, > # dave AKA vwdoc1 > # > # > # -----Original Message----- > # From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] > # Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 2:57 PM > # To: dave > # Cc: xj-list; full size jeep list; diesel-benz list; WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com > # Subject: MB Diesels as swap objects > # > # I should call those folks... > # > # http://mercedesdiesel4x4.com/default.aspx > # > # or even: > # > # http://www.dieselswapguys.com/?p=10 > # > # of course these kits assume a manual trans, I want one with an automatic. > # > # the issue is the flex plate, torque converter and bell housing... would want > # to mate to either an AW4 or a 45RFE. (possibly the 42RE, but not eager on > # that). > # > # there are manual boxes to control the shifing of the AW4, one of my son's > # friends is an electrical engineer and made one with simple parts, easy > # enough > # to do, but it's quasi-manual... adapting the trans computer to the Diesel > # would require a TPS (throttle position sensor), possibly a speed sensor, > # and a kickdown of some kind. Not rocket science. I'll have to look at > # the WJ computers to see what Rube Goldberg scheme they used in order to > # touch > # every one of the 8 to 10 computers on board... the heated seats used FOUR > # computers. > # > # john > # > # ----- > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > # On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, dave wrote: > # > # # I have seen some older MB Diesels going cheaply here due to rust. Now IF > # I > # # had a kit to install one in a WJ, I would consider assembling the parts. > # # > # # later, > # # dave AKA vwdoc1 > # # > # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:28:07 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects PS: Let him know the AMC 6 and V8 are the same bell pattern, but not the 4 cyl. The 2.5L AMC is the same pattern as Chev '80 up 2.5 and 2.8 (and other 60 degree V6s). That would allow for using a 700R4 from an S10 Blazer with 2.8L if they had a flexplate adapter. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:38:45 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: vwdoc1-at-gmail.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net; xj-at-digest.net; diesel-benz-at-digest.net; WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com > Subject: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects > > "first kit will be for the RH32, then im not sure from there. > Does AW4 bolt up to 4.0L 6 cylinder? > > thanks Nathan" > > > a RH32 - that is a torqueflite 999 or 909 by my understanding... > swapped email with the sales guy (nathan) today > ... he wasn't aware of the AW4 used in the XJs from '87-'01... > > guess that makes sense though, the rh32 doesn't need a computer. > only problem is no overdrive either. > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, dave wrote: > > # http://mercedesdiesel4x4.com/default.aspx > # "We are going to design kit to adapt the AX5 manual transmission found in > # most 4 cylinder jeeps and an automatic transmission found in 6 cylinder > # jeeps to the OM617 Mercedes turbo diesel. If there is a kit you want > # designed let us know!" > # > # Hmmm so now I need to find a Mercedes OM617 engine huh? ;-) > # > # > # later, > # dave AKA vwdoc1 > # > # > # -----Original Message----- > # From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] > # Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 2:57 PM > # To: dave > # Cc: xj-list; full size jeep list; diesel-benz list; WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com > # Subject: MB Diesels as swap objects > # > # I should call those folks... > # > # http://mercedesdiesel4x4.com/default.aspx > # > # or even: > # > # http://www.dieselswapguys.com/?p=10 > # > # of course these kits assume a manual trans, I want one with an automatic. > # > # the issue is the flex plate, torque converter and bell housing... would want > # to mate to either an AW4 or a 45RFE. (possibly the 42RE, but not eager on > # that). > # > # there are manual boxes to control the shifing of the AW4, one of my son's > # friends is an electrical engineer and made one with simple parts, easy > # enough > # to do, but it's quasi-manual... adapting the trans computer to the Diesel > # would require a TPS (throttle position sensor), possibly a speed sensor, > # and a kickdown of some kind. Not rocket science. I'll have to look at > # the WJ computers to see what Rube Goldberg scheme they used in order to > # touch > # every one of the 8 to 10 computers on board... the heated seats used FOUR > # computers. > # > # john > # > # ----- > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > # On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, dave wrote: > # > # # I have seen some older MB Diesels going cheaply here due to rust. Now IF > # I > # # had a kit to install one in a WJ, I would consider assembling the parts. > # # > # # later, > # # dave AKA vwdoc1 > # # > # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:56:02 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: some info on automatic trans jim, the RH might does NOT mean right hand... but REAR Drive - HYDRAULICALLY CONTROLLED - ------------------------ the 42RE from what I've found means REAR drive ELECTRONICALLY CONTROLLED so RH, as you even note in your later statement would mean REAR - HYDRAULIC. :) and the 4 likely means 4 speed, and the 3, three..., 2nd number may have to do with the torque converter, the 45rfe does something special, would have to read up on it. 45RFE - that 5 might indicate part of it's function, as it does something different in the lower gears... R- Rear F-??? E-electronic found another post that lists this info: from: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/42-re-vs-42-rle-622919/ 4-Four speed 2-Torque Rating (200-300 ft lbs) R-Rear wheel drive L-Longitude mounting E-Electronically controlled. found this in the WJ manual: 44 RE TRANSMISSION Vehicles equipped with the 3.1L turbo diesel engine use the 44RE automatic transmission. The 44RE is a four speed fully automatic transmission (Fig. 1) with an electronic governor. found this post on: http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14124 "eep Grand Cherokee started using the 42RE transmission in 1993 1/2 models with the 4.0L engine. The "4" stands for 4-speed, "2" is for torque capacity, "R" is for rear-wheel drive, and "E" is for electronically controlled. This transmission is electronically controlled using a governor pressure solenoid to vary the governor pressure. The shifts are controlled by the valve body by conventional shift valves for 1-2 and 2-3 upshifts. The 3-4 upshift and 4-3 downshifts are controlled by a solenoid. Although the shifts are controlled by shift valves for the lower gears, the higher gear is electronically controlled because the governor pressure acting against it is controlled by the transmission control module (TCM). The throttle pressure is controlled by a standard cable and throttle valve. The TCM inputs for this system include engine rpm, throttle position sensor, vehicle speed sensor, transmission output speed sensor, governor pressure sensor, transmission fluid temperature sensor and overdrive "off" switch. The TCM outputs are the 3-4 shift solenoid, the governor pressure solenoid and the torque converter clutch solenoid. Here's how this system operates: As the output shaft begins to move, a 2-wire AC generator (transmission output speed sensor) begins to signal the TCM of the rpm. As the shaft speed increases, the TCM controls the governor pressure solenoid accordingly by a pulse-width modulated signal. Feedback to the TCM is provided by a governor pressure sensor to verify that the pressure actually changes. The pressure sensor is a 5-volt reference sensor. When the wheels are not rotating, voltage around 0.6 V is normal. As the wheels begin to speed up, the voltage should increase proportionately. If the voltage does increase, then the pressure is increasing as it should - this should be verified with a pressure gauge. This variance of pressure acts upon the shift valves in the valve body along with the throttle pressure to provide the shifts. As speed warrants, the TCM will apply the 3-4 overdrive solenoid, which is the only shift solenoid used on this system. The OD inputs are overdrive off switch, TPS, VSS, transmission temp sensor, output speed sensor and engine rpm. The torque converter clutch (TCC) solenoid will normally operate in overdrive, but the TCM can operate the TCC in third gear if the overdrive off switch is selected. Inputs for TCC include OD off switch, TPS, engine rpm, VSS, output speed and transmission temperature sensor. The transmission temperature sensor is mounted on the overdrive/torque converter clutch solenoid assembly and provides input to the TCM. When the temperature sensor reports 30 degrees F or colder, there will be no overdrive, and below 50 degrees F, there will be no torque converter clutch. If the transmission fluid temperature sensor reports an overheating condition (over 260 degrees F) and the transmission is currently in overdrive, the TCM will downshift to third gear. The TCM will also light the LED in the dash-mounted OD off switch until the temperature drops below 230 degrees F. However, the torque converter clutch may still be operational. This system has self-diagnostics. Fault codes can be read with a scan tool or by cycling the ignition key three times, then counting the flashes of the LED in the OD off switch. The diagnostic connector is located inside the vehicle to the left of the center console. The default mode of the TCM is third gear. Manual shifting of reverse and second gear is possible when in default mode. Default mode happens after a fault code is set. " ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, Jim Blair wrote: # # 42RE stands for 4 speed (O/D) right hand starter electronically controlled. RH32 is 3 speed RH starter hydraulic controlled. It's too bad Dodge didn't make a 42RH version for AMC motors. (They did for Dodge small blocks '88 to '92, but not slant 6s or big blocks) # # If they make a crank adapter to go with the 999 flexplate, it should work with the AW4 as well (crank flange offset and pattern is the same for '72 to '90 4.2 and all 4.0L). The pilot hole in the crank for the trans may be different and need a sleeve (easily test fit to see) # # They would be far better off to make the MB diesel adapter to an AX-15 than the wimpy AX-5 (I killed 2 myself and I haven't killed a BA 10/5 yet!) If I had a MBZ bell and AX-15 bell, it shouldn't be hard to make an adapter to fit it with just a plate on the trans. (I have 2 AX-15s here for measurement but no bells) I do have a T5 bell with AMC pattern if they need something to take a measurement from. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:58:32 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects we should get good pictures of all the jeep bell housings and engines that we can... how many do you have laying around Jim? still snowed in up in index? :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, Jim Blair wrote: # PS: Let him know the AMC 6 and V8 are the same bell pattern, but not the 4 # cyl. The 2.5L AMC is the same pattern as Chev '80 up 2.5 and 2.8 (and other 60 # degree V6s). That would allow for using a 700R4 from an S10 Blazer with 2.8L # if they had a flexplate adapter. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # # # # > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:38:45 -0800 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: vwdoc1-at-gmail.com # > CC: fsj-at-digest.net; xj-at-digest.net; diesel-benz-at-digest.net; # WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com # > Subject: fsj: RE: MB Diesels as swap objects # > # > "first kit will be for the RH32, then im not sure from there. # > Does AW4 bolt up to 4.0L 6 cylinder? # > # > thanks Nathan" # > # > # > a RH32 - that is a torqueflite 999 or 909 by my understanding... # > swapped email with the sales guy (nathan) today # > ... he wasn't aware of the AW4 used in the XJs from '87-'01... # > # > guess that makes sense though, the rh32 doesn't need a computer. # > only problem is no overdrive either. # > # > john # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, dave wrote: # > # > # http://mercedesdiesel4x4.com/default.aspx # > # "We are going to design kit to adapt the AX5 manual transmission found # in # > # most 4 cylinder jeeps and an automatic transmission found in 6 cylinder # > # jeeps to the OM617 Mercedes turbo diesel. If there is a kit you want # > # designed let us know!" # > # # > # Hmmm so now I need to find a Mercedes OM617 engine huh? ;-) # > # # > # # > # later, # > # dave AKA vwdoc1 # > # # > # # > # -----Original Message----- # > # From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] # > # Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 2:57 PM # > # To: dave # > # Cc: xj-list; full size jeep list; diesel-benz list; # WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com # > # Subject: MB Diesels as swap objects # > # # > # I should call those folks... # > # # > # http://mercedesdiesel4x4.com/default.aspx # > # # > # or even: # > # # > # http://www.dieselswapguys.com/?p=10 # > # # > # of course these kits assume a manual trans, I want one with an # automatic. # > # # > # the issue is the flex plate, torque converter and bell housing... would # want # > # to mate to either an AW4 or a 45RFE. (possibly the 42RE, but not eager # on # > # that). # > # # > # there are manual boxes to control the shifing of the AW4, one of my # son's # > # friends is an electrical engineer and made one with simple parts, easy # > # enough # > # to do, but it's quasi-manual... adapting the trans computer to the # Diesel # > # would require a TPS (throttle position sensor), possibly a speed sensor, # > # and a kickdown of some kind. Not rocket science. I'll have to look at # > # the WJ computers to see what Rube Goldberg scheme they used in order to # > # touch # > # every one of the 8 to 10 computers on board... the heated seats used # FOUR # > # computers. # > # # > # john # > # # > # ----- # > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # > # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # # > # On Fri, 21 Jan 2011, dave wrote: # > # # > # # I have seen some older MB Diesels going cheaply here due to rust. Now # IF # > # I # > # # had a kit to install one in a WJ, I would consider assembling the # parts. # > # # # > # # later, # > # # dave AKA vwdoc1 # > # # # > # # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3688 **************************