From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Aug 7 15:50:54 1999 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, August 7 1999 Volume 01 : Number 513 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: QT encyclopedia fsj: Re: Selec-Trac Re: fsj: Re: Selec-Trac fsj: jeep xfr cases Re: fsj: feasible? fsj: Re: rear window problem Re: fsj: jeep xfr cases Re: fsj: jeep xfr cases FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 23:51:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Subject: fsj: QT encyclopedia The encyclopedia is on their website at http://www.d-p-g.com/jp/currentissue/html/tc1.htm - --- Brian wrote: > --- john wrote: > > cool. I can't find that rag anywhere around > here... > > I have only been able to find it at Books-A-Million > 30mi away. > > > could you send me a copy of the articles and a > > subscription form? > > Sure, but you can subscribe on their website or by > calling 800-678-8012. Either way would probably be > quicker than waiting for me to get it mailed to you > and then you mailing it in. If you still want the > form > let me know. > === > Brian ( http://go.to/graywolf ) > 78 J-10 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 > 97 Thunderbird 4.6 V8 > > I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that > you really believe what you just said > -William Buckley, Jr. > > The word bipartisan usually means some > larger-than-usual deception is being carried out. > -George Carlin > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > === Brian ( http://go.to/graywolf ) 78 J-10 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird 4.6 V8 I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said -William Buckley, Jr. The word bipartisan usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out. -George Carlin _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:29:41 -0400 From: Raymond C Drouillard Subject: fsj: Re: Selec-Trac I have a 229 on my '89 GW. Here's the straight scoop: It is a full time / part time 'case. You can run on hard surfaces all you want in either 2WD or 4WD high. It is locked in 4WD Low, and should only be used on surfaces with some "give". I have heard that driving in 4WD lock (low, in the case of the 229) can damage the drive train, but I have never seen it happen. It will certainly wear out a whole lot quicker because of the extra stress. The differential in the 'case has a viscous coupler wrapped around it. This offers some limited slip. The more speed difference there is between the axles, the more torque will be transferred to the axle with good traction. This heats up the coupler, however. If you ever lose a driveshaft, don't even think of driving it in 4WD high. If you lose the rear driveshaft and are really desperate, you can drive it in 4WD low. Your top speed will be severely limited, however. Your engine will be running way too fast, too. When you're in 2WD high, the entire drivetrain will be moving. This includes the drive chain. The drive chain will not be transmitting much torque, however. That is why they rarely wear out in a PT/FT 'case. I generally drive around in rear wheel drive, but I'll switch to 4WD if the road is wet (sometimes) and during the snowy parts of the winter. The older GWs with the 229 had a front axle disconnect - a feeble attempt at better mileage. With this system you had to stop the Jeep to switch to 4WD. With the newer "shift on the fly" system, it's just a matter of flipping the switch. BTW, I have switched between 4WD and 2WD at speeds of up to 80 MPH with no problems. Ray Drouillard '89 Grand Wagoneer On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:26:42 -0700 (PDT) john writes: >On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Berry, Bradley A wrote: > >>-->OK John, please explain these to me. >>--> >>-->1) >>--> >>-->My 88 GW has a 229 transfer case, which, the last time I checked >was a >>-->Selec-Trac unit. My understanding of this unit has been that it >is a part >>-->time 4WD unit which should only be used off road or under snow/wet >>-->conditions on paved roads which will allow slippage of the wheels. > I've >>-->assumed that this means that the transfer case doesn't have a >clutch pack in >>-->it which allows the front and rear axles to turn at different >rates, so that >>-->if I drove the truck in circles long enough, I would break the >chain due to >>-->the stresses on it. > >ok, first off, it's not a "part-time" unit, it's a full-time unit that >has >2wd mode. You CAN drive on hardsurfaces with this. From my feeble >memory I >believe this is a differentiated unit. It does NOT have 4wd high lock >up >capablity, where the NP219 does. > >You will NOT hurt this unit running in 4wd all the time. > >>--> >>-->I bought the service manual a year ago, and it basically backed >this up, but >>-->I never had an owners manual because I was waiting for the >previous owner to >>-->send it to me. I finally broke down and bought the OM, and its' >story about >>-->the transfer case is a little different. It says: >>--> HI Position >>--> 2WD or 4WD - In either position, the vehicle may be >operated on >>-->all road surfaces. In 4WD, Selec-Trac offers better traction >>--> when roads are wet, snow covered, or icy. Use >Selec-Trac 4WD >>-->year-round (full time) if you wish. > >yep. > >4wd low is a no-no except in really slick stuff though, it does "lock" >up. :) > >>--> >>-->This seems pretty clear, but it doesn't seem to match up to my >service >>-->manual, which says to use 2WD HI on hard surface roads, and 4WD HI >on snow, >>-->mud, sand, or off-road. > >sounds like standard rheotaric (sp?) for a part time unit. :) > >>--> >>-->OK Knower of all things Jeep, what's the scoop? > >another example of errors in jeep documentation... no problem... :) > >>--> >>--> >>-->2) >>--> >>-->When can I go in and out of 4WD? My service manual says that I >should stop >>-->the vehicle, pull out a switch lever release pin (which doesn't >exist on my >>-->vehicle), and then switch to 4WD. The Owners manual says that >"mode >>-->selection can be made while the vehicle is moving at any legal >speed." >>-->(Even in Montana?) OK, which is it? > >I'd say look at the web page somewhere on my site that covers the >NP229... >it's out there... somewhere... :) > >I'd recommend doing it at slower speeds, as based on my experiences >with the NP229. > >>--> >>-->They are consistent about shifting the transfer case at least. >They both >>-->call for being in neutral, rolling at 2-3 mph, although I'm not >sure that I >>-->could count on the jeep rolling long enough for me to shift the >case at that >>-->speed. >>--> >>--> >>-->3) >>--> >>-->The other half of the reason I bought this manual, was so that I >could find >>-->out what I could reasonably load onto the roof rack. The >tremendously >>-->helpful manual states: "A roof-top luggage rack is available for >the Grand >>-->Wagoneer model. A wrench for the adjustable crossbows is stored >in the >>-->glove box." Well it lied on the second part, and I just want to >know if I >>-->can load a 75 lb canoe on this rack, or if I should buy a separate >roof >>-->rack. Any opinions? > >I've carried as much or more on mine... it's ok, but the rack is held >on by >wellnuts... For extended or prolonged use a gutter mount rack would >be better... > >john > >>--> >>-->Thanks, >>--> >>-->Brad Berry >>-->88 GW >>--> > > ---- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com **** Snohomish, Washington USA > don't leave life without jesus, please... > http://wagoneers.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 09:57:49 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Selec-Trac The only drawback to the NP229 is no high lock. Otherwise it's a great unit. I've owned two of 'em in XJ's and one in an MJ. The NP219 does have an "emergency" lock in 4wd high. YOu can damage both in "lock" on hard surfaces. Typically the tires will slip and prevent the case from shattering... :) john At 11:29 PM 8/5/99 -0400, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: >I have a 229 on my '89 GW. Here's the straight scoop: > >It is a full time / part time 'case. You can run on hard surfaces all >you want in either 2WD or 4WD high. > >It is locked in 4WD Low, and should only be used on surfaces with some >"give". I have heard that driving in 4WD lock (low, in the case of the >229) can damage the drive train, but I have never seen it happen. It >will certainly wear out a whole lot quicker because of the extra stress. > >The differential in the 'case has a viscous coupler wrapped around it. >This offers some limited slip. The more speed difference there is >between the axles, the more torque will be transferred to the axle with >good traction. This heats up the coupler, however. > >If you ever lose a driveshaft, don't even think of driving it in 4WD >high. If you lose the rear driveshaft and are really desperate, you can >drive it in 4WD low. Your top speed will be severely limited, however. >Your engine will be running way too fast, too. > >When you're in 2WD high, the entire drivetrain will be moving. This >includes the drive chain. The drive chain will not be transmitting much >torque, however. That is why they rarely wear out in a PT/FT 'case. > >I generally drive around in rear wheel drive, but I'll switch to 4WD if >the road is wet (sometimes) and during the snowy parts of the winter. > >The older GWs with the 229 had a front axle disconnect - a feeble attempt >at better mileage. With this system you had to stop the Jeep to switch >to 4WD. With the newer "shift on the fly" system, it's just a matter of >flipping the switch. > >BTW, I have switched between 4WD and 2WD at speeds of up to 80 MPH with >no problems. > > >Ray Drouillard >'89 Grand Wagoneer > > > > > > >On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:26:42 -0700 (PDT) john >writes: >>On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Berry, Bradley A wrote: >> >>>-->OK John, please explain these to me. >>>--> >>>-->1) >>>--> >>>-->My 88 GW has a 229 transfer case, which, the last time I checked >>was a >>>-->Selec-Trac unit. My understanding of this unit has been that it >>is a part >>>-->time 4WD unit which should only be used off road or under snow/wet >>>-->conditions on paved roads which will allow slippage of the wheels. >> I've >>>-->assumed that this means that the transfer case doesn't have a >>clutch pack in >>>-->it which allows the front and rear axles to turn at different >>rates, so that >>>-->if I drove the truck in circles long enough, I would break the >>chain due to >>>-->the stresses on it. >> >>ok, first off, it's not a "part-time" unit, it's a full-time unit that >>has >>2wd mode. You CAN drive on hardsurfaces with this. From my feeble >>memory I >>believe this is a differentiated unit. It does NOT have 4wd high lock >>up >>capablity, where the NP219 does. >> >>You will NOT hurt this unit running in 4wd all the time. >> >>>--> >>>-->I bought the service manual a year ago, and it basically backed >>this up, but >>>-->I never had an owners manual because I was waiting for the >>previous owner to >>>-->send it to me. I finally broke down and bought the OM, and its' >>story about >>>-->the transfer case is a little different. It says: >>>--> HI Position >>>--> 2WD or 4WD - In either position, the vehicle may be >>operated on >>>-->all road surfaces. In 4WD, Selec-Trac offers better traction >>>--> when roads are wet, snow covered, or icy. Use >>Selec-Trac 4WD >>>-->year-round (full time) if you wish. >> >>yep. >> >>4wd low is a no-no except in really slick stuff though, it does "lock" >>up. :) >> >>>--> >>>-->This seems pretty clear, but it doesn't seem to match up to my >>service >>>-->manual, which says to use 2WD HI on hard surface roads, and 4WD HI >>on snow, >>>-->mud, sand, or off-road. >> >>sounds like standard rheotaric (sp?) for a part time unit. :) >> >>>--> >>>-->OK Knower of all things Jeep, what's the scoop? >> >>another example of errors in jeep documentation... no problem... :) >> >>>--> >>>--> >>>-->2) >>>--> >>>-->When can I go in and out of 4WD? My service manual says that I >>should stop >>>-->the vehicle, pull out a switch lever release pin (which doesn't >>exist on my >>>-->vehicle), and then switch to 4WD. The Owners manual says that >>"mode >>>-->selection can be made while the vehicle is moving at any legal >>speed." >>>-->(Even in Montana?) OK, which is it? >> >>I'd say look at the web page somewhere on my site that covers the >>NP229... >>it's out there... somewhere... :) >> >>I'd recommend doing it at slower speeds, as based on my experiences >>with the NP229. >> >>>--> >>>-->They are consistent about shifting the transfer case at least. >>They both >>>-->call for being in neutral, rolling at 2-3 mph, although I'm not >>sure that I >>>-->could count on the jeep rolling long enough for me to shift the >>case at that >>>-->speed. >>>--> >>>--> >>>-->3) >>>--> >>>-->The other half of the reason I bought this manual, was so that I >>could find >>>-->out what I could reasonably load onto the roof rack. The >>tremendously >>>-->helpful manual states: "A roof-top luggage rack is available for >>the Grand >>>-->Wagoneer model. A wrench for the adjustable crossbows is stored >>in the >>>-->glove box." Well it lied on the second part, and I just want to >>know if I >>>-->can load a 75 lb canoe on this rack, or if I should buy a separate >>roof >>>-->rack. Any opinions? >> >>I've carried as much or more on mine... it's ok, but the rack is held >>on by >>wellnuts... For extended or prolonged use a gutter mount rack would >>be better... >> >>john >> >>>--> >>>-->Thanks, >>>--> >>>-->Brad Berry >>>-->88 GW >>>--> >> >> ---- >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> john-at-wagoneers.com **** Snohomish, Washington USA >> don't leave life without jesus, please... >> http://wagoneers.com >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 10:11:24 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: jeep xfr cases - --- Brian wrote: The encyclopedia is on their website at http://www.d-p-g.com/jp/currentissue/html/tc1.htm I just read that the NP228 is an NP229 without the 2wd/4wd switch, in other words, a variation of the NP219!!! very cool! Thanx Brian for pointing the JP web site out to me... :) http://www.d-p-g.com/jp/currentissue/html/tc3.htm john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 14:24:37 -0400 From: Raymond C Drouillard Subject: Re: fsj: feasible? OK John... sit down, relax, and repeat after me: "There is no reason to carve something into something else that already exists, anyway" If you want a pick'em'up truck, go get a J10 or something. They already exist. You don't have to spend hundreds of hours carving that poor waggy into something that resembles what rolled off the assembly line by the thousands. Spend that hundreds of hours doing that eunich programming stuff and take a fraction of the money and use it to buy a pick'em'up truck. Now that you have your J10, and some cash left over from all that eunich programming or book writing, you can start working on things that HAVEN'T been built before. Let's see... maybe you'll want to do an axle upgrade. Maybe a little fender carving combined with a lift to make room for bigger tires. How about a set of deauce-and-a-half axles? Heck, even go with the stock tires that the military uses. Then, get yourself a Cummins or Ford Powerstroke mounted to the same transmission and t-case that it came with. Cram all of that under the hood with an air conditioner (for those three days a year when the temp goes over 65). Install some extra heavy duty weatherstripping and windshield wipers. Rip out the carpet and replace it with Rhino Liner (won't mold). You might even want to rhino-line the bottom of the body. I know you empty-nesters like your quiet rides. To top it off, you can add a snorkel so you won't have to move when everything west of the Rockies falls into the Pacific. Ray Drouillard On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:57:22 -0700 (PDT) john writes: >would it be feasible to "attach" the back of a J10 >cab to my wagoneer floorboard and roof? > >john ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 14:03:04 -0400 From: Raymond C Drouillard Subject: fsj: Re: rear window problem There is no relay in the tailgate of an FSJ (except for mine). The current for the motor goes through the dash switch and the door switch. If one is bad, or if the points are getting pitted/dirty, there won't be enough power to operate the motors. If you can see the motor, follow the wires (red and yellow, IIRC) to the connecter and disconnect the motor. Then, use a long wire to get 12V straight from the battery and see if that works. If it does, I guess I'll have to finally buckle down and write that article. Meanwhile, there should be some info in the archives from what I have written in the past couple of months. Ray Drouillard On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 14:00:52 -0700 john writes: > >the relay is fine, the amp gauge is showing that... there is >something >binding, more than likely the tracks on the sides. there are clips... >go to the bottom of the glass, from the middle you'll find a clip 1/2 >to the end on each side... at the very bottom... it's there, trust >me... > >john > >At 02:21 PM 8/1/99 +0000, freezer-at-indy.webbits.net wrote: >>John, >>I worked around inside of the read door hatch feeling for two clips. >I >>can't see or feel any clips. I am able to slightly move the glass >>around in the down position so I believe it's not stuck on something. >>The WS on the top of the door is free from the glass as well. It's >>almost as if there isn't enough power to push the mechanism. I >>can hear the switch start something and see the gauge show an >>amp draw. I tried pulling up on the window while trying the switch >>but it's not helping. From looking at the gearing I can't see that >>they could be stuck either. I wondered if there is a relay mounted >>somewhere inside the door that could be out? The switch on the >>lower left of the dash never worked so I should still be able to run >>the window as always. >>I'll put the charger on the battery just for a charge to be sure I'm >>working from full power. >>Thanks again, >>Greg >> >>> You'll have to reach in and release the two round clips that >>> snap onto the arms. Once those are unsnapped the window will >>> be free of the motor. You will probably find that the channels >>> on either side of the tail gate, or the weatherstripping up around >>> the body are the problem. You may or may not be able to force >>> the window up past them... I've seen creative uses of 2x4 lumber >>> inside the tailgates of FSJ's... :) My first FSJ had nothing >>> in the tailgate but a couple chunks of 2x4... :) the PO was >>> a carpenter and not very mechanically inclined... >>> >>> I have all the stuff to fix my 77 wag, but I'm dreading it... >>> I'm thinking about going down and buying a piece of polycarbonate >>> sheeting cut to the dimensions of the frame and devising some >>> twist & turn lock type clamps to hold it in place... using thick >>> weatherstripping as a base... >>> >>> My thoughts wander to a J10... :) >>> >>> john >>> >>> >>> At 06:16 PM 7/31/99 +0000, freezer-at-indy.webbits.net wrote: >>> >John, >>> >My '80 Wagoneer rear window is down and won't come up. >>> >I was doing a little moving of stuff to the storage shed and after >I >>> >was done and wanting to put up the window, found it not able to >>> >come up. How hard is moving the glass by hand? I removed the >>> >inside back door panel but since the glass is down it's in the >way. >>> >I can see the battery pulling down on the gauge when I try the >>> >keylock. >>> >We are expecting rain and I'd like to try to get this window up. >>> >Thank you, >>> >Greg Harper >>> > >>> ----------------------------------------------------- >>> john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com >>> ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! >>> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >>> ----------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >> >> >----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com > ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >----------------------------------------------------- > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:39:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Subject: Re: fsj: jeep xfr cases - --- john wrote: > I just read that the NP228 is an NP229 without the > 2wd/4wd switch, > in other words, a variation of the NP219!!! very > cool! Thanx Brian for > pointing the JP web site out to me... :) Now I am beginning to question the accuracy of this story. As these TC's have been discussed on both lists so much. the accepted knowledge of the 228 was that it is the 229 with an open diff (otherwise identical) and was teh selec-Trac in 86. Anyone out there with a 228? do you have a 2wd/4wd switch? === Brian ( http://go.to/graywolf ) 78 J-10 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird 4.6 V8 I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said -William Buckley, Jr. The word bipartisan usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out. -George Carlin _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: jeep xfr cases A: Whoever said that must be mixing up a NP208 with a NP228, because the NP228 and NP128 have 2 and 4 wheel switch, but the NP228 has low range as well! They may have been looking at a NP219 with a NP228 tag (a lot of unscrupulous repair shops did things like that) - --- john wrote: I just read that the NP228 is an NP229 without the 2wd/4wd switch, in other words, a variation of the NP219!!! very cool! Thanx Brian for pointing the JP web site out to me... :) Now I am beginning to question the accuracy of this story. As these TC's have been discussed on both lists so much. the accepted knowledge of the 228 was that it is the 229 with an open diff (otherwise identical) and was teh selec-Trac in 86. Anyone out there with a 228? do you have a 2wd/4wd switch? =3D=3D=3D Brian ( http://go.to/graywolf ) 78 J-10 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird 4.6 V8 I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -William Buckley, Jr. The word bipartisan usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -George Carlin ____________ Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfal= se ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #513 *************************