From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Aug 12 17:14:14 1999 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, August 12 1999 Volume 01 : Number 520 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: lockup torque converter fsj: 48 Jeepster fsj: trans and tcases fsj: 700r4 to ? fsj: center diff fsj: Re: 48 Jeepster Re: fsj: lockup torque converter fsj: Re: grand wagoneer Re: fsj: trans and tcases Re: fsj: 700r4 to ? fsj: When? Re: fsj: Disinformation and missing info on the transfercase webpage fsj: which oil? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:55:50 -0600 From: "Jason Whitaker" Subject: fsj: lockup torque converter Sounds like a full-time case is going to be tough to do with a t700r4. On kind of the same subject; if I do finally get an overdrive tcase installed, I'd like to get a lockup torque converter. The lockup feature is electrically controlled right? Could a switch be wired in to engage the lockup on downhills? Would this give you compression braking? Jason Whitaker '78 Wag Loveland CO >I want to do the exact same thing except I've a t400/qt to replace. The >t400 is great and I've even been convinced that there is nothing better >than a QT :), but the adapter to put it behind a t700 runs ~$400. That >and Michael B's parts troubles have convinced me to change t-cases. I >want a full time unit and if a 229 would bolt up I'd be in heaven. > >A: The NP229 is wrong way around (front driveshaft is on the left, and >rear is centered on the NP series), and the bolt pattern is different. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:00:06 -0700 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: 48 Jeepster I ran in to a couple in Coeur D Alene, who had a Beautiful , 48 Jeepster, from Ca, on I 90, registered historical... I got some great shots! has a 327 in it it, it was sooo bitching!!!!! I get the pics soon.. R.J. ICQ 29449252 79 Wag ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:57:18 -0600 From: "Jason Whitaker" Subject: fsj: trans and tcases >http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/digests/fsj-digest-v1-515.txt >(however you want to double check anything posted as we often cite >things from faulty memory or inaccurate sources. A good tranny shop >or the dealer may be able to help. Information is hard to come by and >listening to one of us could be a very expensive learning lesson. :) But where else would I learn this? >AsFasIKnow, any of the NP type xfr cases will bolt up to a TF727 or >AisinWarner type transmission IF the spline count is the same. You'll >also have to check shaft length. I'm not too fond of Chrysler trannys, is AisinWarner a Ford product? > BTW, the NP219 is the Quadratrac equivalent, NP229 is Select Trac, the >229 does not provide a "lock" in 4wd high. Another xfr case to consider >is the NP242, it's got both part time and full time modes. My 88 xj has >one, it's pretty decent... never been serviced, but it's only got 194,000 miles >on it too... :) >NOW, the OTHER problem. If you have a QT now, your axles will have to >be swapped if you go to a NP xfr case. :( > >john I was aware of the back diff but not the front being different, I'm hoping to upgrade the rear soon and going to a centered diff seems easier than having one built with the offset. Thanks, Jason Whitaker '78 Wag Loveland CO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:59:31 -0600 From: "Jason Whitaker" Subject: fsj: 700r4 to ? > > Jason, With 6" of lift, you're pretty much married to that Q-T unless you > swap the rear-end out for centered diff. D-44 or better. With stock ride > height, it is possible to swap a centered output t-case in place of the > Q-T. With any lift (especially 6" worth), the compound angles on the rear > u-joints are going to be way beyond max. unless the pinion shaft is inline > with the t-case output shaft. Well the lift is actually 4" suspension and 2" body. I hoping to get away with the center tcase and offset diff for a little while at least. Maybe by greasing regularly, using a double-cardan and pointing the diff up. I was even hoping I could squeeze it by the stock tank. > > Now more bad news. All the Jeep NP cases are driver's side front output. > Your Q-T is passenger side front output. If you want a Jeep NP full-time > case in there, you're swapping out the rear axle, the front axle and maybe > the transmission (to the TF-727). I say maybe because there is a > chance the > output shaft from a GM TH-400 to a NP-208 (used in some early '80s GM > trucks 3/4 and 1 ton) would be correct for the 219/228/229. I wasn't aware of the difference in front output, that is a bummer. After reading on the jp t-case page that the jeep 208,219,etc all are interchangeable I was hoping that, since the t700r4 came with a 208, the jeep 208 would just need a shaft to work with the t700. > > The only full-time case I can think of which will work behind a AMC TH-400 > if you don't want to swap your front axle out, is the GM NP-203. The 203 > is fairly robust, but requires more regular chain replacements than the > Q-T. And it only has a 2 to 1 reduction and the center diff. is > of the open > type when not locked. Plus, I don't remember if the 203 has a high lock > position? Oh...I forgot, any other t-case which can be bolted to the back > of your TH-400 without an adapter will require swapping the > tranny's output > shaft. That means completely disassembling the transmission. Of > course, the > 203 has a centered rear output. > > I think you can see this opens a big bucket of worms and is why it > is important we can get parts for the Q-T. > > Even if you give-up the full-time requirement, you still have to change > the rear axle and the gas tank too. Then you'd be looking at a GM NP-208, > Dana 300 or Dana 20. I would go with the 300 personally. The 300 would > require an adapter most likely. For years we heard an 1980 Scout 300 would > bolt-up in place of a Dana 20, but someone tried and didn't succeed. That > may have had something to do with the two input spline counts for the D-20 > though? > > -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter > From Reno, NV USA on 10-Aug-1999 My plans are to swap in d60's front and rear so I had about settled on a 203 as the easiest, strongest tcase. The shaft to adapt it to the t700 is about 150 bucks. But if I could install a more modern t-case with a 2.7 to 1 instead of 2 to 1 low by purchasing a 380.00 adapter maybe I'd go that route. Heck, how much does it cost to up a d300 to 3to1? I would hope I could sell the front d60 sitting in my garage and buy a ford d60 and come out about even. Oh, by going with a 203 that opens up the possibility of latter installing Offroad Designs dual t-case setup. It definitely is a big bucket of worms but you have to do something for fun :) Jason Whitaker '78 Wag Loveland CO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:48:35 EDT From: GuyJeepin-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: center diff i run a offset rearend w' my d20 and 6" of lift vibes are not really a problem Dave, GuyJeepin-at-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:51:53 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 48 Jeepster it's registered historical and it's not stock??? john At 06:00 PM 8/11/99 -0700, R.J. Baynum wrote: >I ran in to a couple in Coeur D Alene, who had a Beautiful , 48 Jeepster, from >Ca, on I 90, registered historical... I got some great shots! has a 327 in it >it, it was sooo bitching!!!!! I get the pics soon.. >R.J. >ICQ 29449252 >79 Wag > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:56:17 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: lockup torque converter why would a full-time case be any harder with a t700r4 than with any other tranny??? The New Process/New Venture xfr cases all have similar mountings right? There are two variables I know of, 1) shaft spline count, and 2) shaft length. Both can be dealt with. The other unknown is the mounting, pretty sure all of the NP's are round type facings... so if an NP208 will work, so will an NP229 or NP242... or an NP219. right? The other issue is the output of the front driveshaft, all NP's are driver's side, Dana20's, 300's, 18's, and QT's all dump out the passenger side. john At 06:55 PM 8/11/99 -0600, Jason Whitaker wrote: >Sounds like a full-time case is going to be tough to do with a t700r4. >On kind of the same subject; if I do finally get an overdrive tcase >installed, I'd like to get a lockup torque converter. >The lockup feature is electrically controlled right? Could a switch be wired >in to engage the lockup on downhills? Would this give you compression >braking? > >Jason Whitaker >'78 Wag >Loveland CO > > >>I want to do the exact same thing except I've a t400/qt to replace. The >>t400 is great and I've even been convinced that there is nothing better >>than a QT :), but the adapter to put it behind a t700 runs ~$400. That >>and Michael B's parts troubles have convinced me to change t-cases. I >>want a full time unit and if a 229 would bolt up I'd be in heaven. >> >>A: The NP229 is wrong way around (front driveshaft is on the left, and >>rear is centered on the NP series), and the bolt pattern is different. >> > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:03:35 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: grand wagoneer At 12:48 AM 8/12/99 -0400, Ronald Nichols wrote: >John just got my first fsj a 1987 grand wagoneer the fwd didn't work >but i found a vacuum hose that was not hooked up so now the 4 wd light's >up on the dash but there is a 4 lock light that will not come on have >called every one in our area but no one can tell me what this light is >or if it should come on in 4wd it's hard to tell if it is really in >fwd or not it's an auto with the hi lo lever in the floor and the 4wd >an 2wd lever on the dash any help would be greatly appreciated.. > >love your home page very much enjoyed reading about your jeep's > > Thank's Ron >> rnichols-at-zoomnet.net thanx. You have the NP229 transfer case. It's a part time/full time unit. In 87 they'd done away with the axle vacuum motor to engage the front axle (I think... check your front axle on the passenger side, if there is a plate over the axle without any vacuum lines going to it, then that's true. Otherwise there will be a "motor" there that engages a fork on the front axle when you go into 4wd.) The Selectrac unit has a vacuum switch mounted up on the driver's side of the case, sometimes this will fail, or the lines going to it. To test if it's engaged in 4wd high simply get your back tires in some loose gravel or dirt and stomp it. :) IF you pull out then the front wheels are grabbing. Flip it into 2wd and try it again. The lever going into low range should only be engaged when the vehicle is stopped or going less than 2-3mph... it varies, some cases want to be moving a bit, some in reverse a bit, some stopped... tolerances within the system are probably the reason why. We just learn our vehicle and live with it. :) Sometimes the NP229 will take a while to engage, especially if there is a vacuum leak. The indicator light really cannot be trusted, you need to do a tire spin test to be sure. :) btw, info below on how to subscribe to the fsj list, I know there is more that can be said about this... :) john ============================================================================ ========== To subscribe to a list on digest.net, EMAIL majordomo-at-digest.net, no subject needed, in the body: subscribe [ fsj | xj | diesel-benz ] end (note: select only one of the options in the brackets) You will need to reply to an authentication message. Add a "-digest" to any of the lists to subscribe in the digest mode (messages are grouped, less traffic). Please do not send HTML, special characters, images, SPAM, attachments or stylized text to the lists. The "FOUR" List Rules: 1) NO flames. 2) NO foul language. 3) keep it Family oriented. 4) keep the subject list oriented. to post, email [xj | fsj | diesel-benz]-at-digest.net to unsubscribe, email majordomo-at-digest.net in the message: unsubscribe (list name) (your email) end ============================================================================ ========== john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com/john/book-info.html http://www.wagoneers.com/BIBLE ============================================================================ ========== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:20:16 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: trans and tcases At 06:57 PM 8/11/99 -0600, Jason Whitaker wrote: > >>http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/digests/fsj-digest-v1-515.txt >>(however you want to double check anything posted as we often cite >>things from faulty memory or inaccurate sources. A good tranny shop >>or the dealer may be able to help. Information is hard to come by and >>listening to one of us could be a very expensive learning lesson. :) > >But where else would I learn this? well, by waiting for any data presented here to be "seasoned", that is by letting others respond... problem is others may not know or not respond... the other way is to research it with like vehicles or with documentation. That's why I usually ask for pictures of stuff from people that have it. There are so many production variations within the jeep line that what may be true for one rig may not be true for another. :) This is why even the last production year of vehicles is often questioned. :) most record the Wagoneer's last year as 91, but we know there were four made in 92! :) (I've seen one of 'em. :) Same with the J-trucks, there are rumored to be about 50 made after the supposed last year... in the NorthEast so the story goes... :) But this could be a titling anomoly with those states... hard to say for sure. :) > >I'm not too fond of Chrysler trannys, is AisinWarner a Ford product? not sure, I've heard that Toyotas also use them, so it may be Japanese/American, I"m clueless, all I know is mine is original with 194,000 miles on it, and I just towed home about 3,300lbs with it and it didn't complain a bit. :) >/ john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:53:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 700r4 to ? Jason, With 6" of lift, you're pretty much married to that Q-T unless you swap the rear-end out for centered diff. D-44 or better. With stock ride height, it is possible to swap a centered output t-case in place of the Q-T. With any lift (especially 6" worth), the compound angles on the rear u-joints are going to be way beyond max. unless the pinion shaft is inline with the t-case output shaft. Well the lift is actually 4" suspension and 2" body. I hoping to get away with the center tcase and offset diff for a little while at least. Maybe by greasing regularly, using a double-cardan and pointing the diff up. I was even hoping I could squeeze it by the stock tank. Now more bad news. All the Jeep NP cases are driver's side front output. Your Q-T is passenger side front output. If you want a Jeep NP full-time case in there, you're swapping out the rear axle, the front axle and maybe the transmission (to the TF-727). I say maybe because there is a chance the output shaft from a GM TH-400 to a NP-208 (used in some early '80s GM trucks 3/4 and 1 ton) would be correct for the 219/228/229. A: I thought the GM's with NP208 had divorced cases? (I'm not sure about the newer ones, but I know my '68 1/2 ton farm truck did) I wasn't aware of the difference in front output, that is a bummer. After reading on the jp t-case page that the jeep 208,219,etc all are interchangeable I was hoping that, since the t700r4 came with a 208, the jeep 208 would just need a shaft to work with the t700. A: The Dodge NP208 is rightside drive, opposite of the Jeep. The only full-time case I can think of which will work behind a AMC TH-400 if you don't want to swap your front axle out, is the GM NP-203. The 203 is fairly robust, but requires more regular chain replacements than the Q-T. And it only has a 2 to 1 reduction and the center diff. is of the open type when not locked. Plus, I don't remember if the 203 has a high lock position? Oh...I forgot, any other t-case which can be bolted to the back of your TH-400 without an adapter will require swapping the tranny's output shaft. A: What about the GM NP206? I know they are hard to find because the race truck guys pay about $1500 for a usable one (only one that ironman runs) That means completely disassembling the transmission. Of course, the 203 has a centered rear output. I think you can see this opens a big bucket of worms and is why it is important we can get parts for the Q-T. Even if you give-up the full-time requirement, you still have to change the rear axle and the gas tank too. A: Gas tank is not too hard. I have one for sale (w/o sender, unless mine is good) Then you'd be looking at a GM NP-208, Dana 300 or Dana 20. I would go with the 300 personally. The 300 would require an adapter most likely. For years we heard an 1980 Scout 300 would bolt-up in place of a Dana 20, but someone tried and didn't succeed. That may have had something to do with the two input spline counts for the D-20 though? =A0=A0=A0=A0-- Michael Baxter, A: Definitely is! All the scout outputs are 21 spline, AFAIK (that I have personally seen in 100 or so) and mopst Jeep are 23 spline ('80 - '81 have the occaisional 21) My plans are to swap in d60's front and rear so I had about settled on a 203 as the easiest, strongest tcase. A: If I can work it, my AMC Eagle will be getting a Dana 60 rear with 2.71 gears (it has 2.35 or 2.53 right now) if I can get matching Dana 30 fronts (straight cut) or the 3.08s I have now will work without cooking my viscous clutch in the NP229 I'm putting in. The shaft to adapt it to the t700 is about 150 bucks. But if I could install a more modern t-case with a 2.7 to 1 instead of 2 to 1 low by purchasing a 380.00 adapter maybe I'd go that route. Heck, how much does it cost to up a d300 to 3to1? I would hope I could sell the front d60 sitting in my garage and buy a ford d60 and come out about even. A: Someone on the AMC-list mentioned using a GM 200-4r because it was stronger than the 700 r4, but I don't know for sure. What do the newer GMs use for transfercases? What side outputs? Inquisitive minds want to know! Oh, by going with a 203 that opens up the possibility of latter installing Offroad Designs dual t-case setup. It definitely is a big bucket of worms but you have to do something for fun :) Jason Whitaker '78 Wag Loveland CO Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfal= se ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:02:07 -0700 From: Thunderbird Subject: fsj: When? I need a credible source to cite for the intro of QT in 73. There is a story on the history of Full-time 4wd on the carpoint site. I sent the editor an email pointing out the error of stating that Chevy was the first to use FT4wd in a truck. He wrote: "From your knowledge, would you please give me a little more information to help me with researching this? What vehicle was the AMC full-time four-wheel-drive system installed in? Do you know that name of the system? Can you direct me to any good sources of information on AMC four-wheel-drive systems?" I would really like to help him, he seems to want to actually get the info right. Brian 78 J-10 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird 4.6 V8/Sport/LSD I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through... I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said - -William Buckley, Jr. ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:18:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Disinformation and missing info on the transfercase webpage Ray writes: > What about the NV4500? Will it bolt to the NP 229? Engine/tranny > adapters tend to be cheaper than trany/t-case adapters. The non heavy duty version of the Dodge NV4500 will bolt to the NP229 with the factory dodge NV4500 to NP231 adaptor. But you will need an adaptor to bolt the dodge NV4500 to a jeep bellhousing. Advanced Adaptors sell the adaptor. - -brad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:42:41 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: which oil? "George R. Hoelzeman" writes: >> what oil does the Great Jeep Collective recommend? << Personally, I only know of one engine failure attributed to engine oil and that was an early '80s GM mid-size running Mobile 1. This occurred wh= en the engine, and car, were relatively new after being switched to Mobile 1= . And then I learned about it from the owner's next door neighbor. Who know= s if it was proven the oil really cause the failure by a qualified entity o= r not. I'm still of the school who's doctrine says it does not make a bunch of difference which brand oil (or type...dino., parasynthetic or 100% synthetic) is in your engine and which brand filter is filtering said oil= as long as you change them both often enough. I've known a few who regularly bought Sequoia Oil (recycled) at 7-11 and engines which are probably still running today. = I will still buy a certain brand if I've seen objective testing which say= s it performs better. Like I said before, we need a new test. One thing I'v= e noted from the 3-4 tests I have seen the results of is it doesn't make any difference who's name is on the bottle of 100% synthetic oil. It is always better when compared to dino. oil. I've run Castrol just about exclusively for dino. oil and I buy whatever synthetic is on sale when I can. I'm still working on a bunch of= 5 qt. bottles I bought at Wal-Mart for $15 each. I really like Redline the best, though. Followed closely by Amsoil. Those two you don't find a Wal-Mart. I do agree that the viscosity of the base oil is important since 95% plus= of engine wear happens during the 1st few seconds after cold start when there is no oil pressure. I prefer 5W-30 year round. But all my engines have good oil pressure. Even the Wag's 360 with 173,000 miles of mainly Castrol dino. oil has 25 lbs. hot idle pressure. The Chero's 360 has 40 P= SI at hot idle. I run synthetic in the Chero, Benz, Bug, and Motorhome. I ju= st put synthetic in the Mountaineer at 5,000 miles. I run dino. oil in the Wag. and in the Toyota (which only has ~1400 miles. The Toyota will get it's 1st oil change with dino. at 2500 miles followed by synthetic at 5,0= 00 miles. Oh, I keep synthetic in the snow blower too. I change dino. oil every 3,000 and synthetic oil every 5,000 miles or about once a year whichever comes 1st. Subject: Synthetic John Esposito writes: >> I was recently told that once you use Synthetic you should never switch back to dino oil. It supposedly swells seals and other things. Is there a=3D ny validity to this? << John, You can bet if that were the case, the synthetic manufacturers would have a big, really big, warning on the label to protect them from liability. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 12-Aug-1999 = ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #520 *************************