From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Aug 12 22:15:40 1999 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, August 13 1999 Volume 01 : Number 521 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: projection, mpg? fsj: book, catalogs and FSJ's. :) fsj: When? fsj: 48 Jeepster fsj: lockup torque converter fsj: 700r4 to ? Re: fsj: projection, mpg? fsj: RE: NP206 fsj: tie-rod goodies - from kamp dave fsj: gearless lockers... comments from kamp dave... fsj: I NEED HELP WITH MY COMANCHE!!! Re: fsj: gearless lockers... comments from kamp dave... fsj: Re: Diesel FSJ FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:42:42 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: projection, mpg? john writes: >> how much better mileage? I'm getting very serious about a J10, it has= a 2v now, but that can be changed. :) << I wouldn't be too quick to dump the 2bbl if funds are tight. You can tune= it to get almost as good a mileage as a well-tuned 4bbl. Assuming the res= t of the tune is up to snuff, of course. A few have succumbed to setting the idle mixture screws with higher milea= ge in mind on the other list now besides me. I couldn't get much above 10 wi= th the 2150 until I did mine correctly. Now getting 14.5-15.5 as you know. Mike Ahlmann just improved his mileage 30% on his Performer by setting his properly. The other case was a guy name Matt, I believe, who is runni= ng 35s and got an 18% improvement in mileage with a 2150. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 12-Aug-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:42:43 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: book, catalogs and FSJ's. :) Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) writes: >> The 2.5 is affectionately known as the Iron Duke (some call it the Iron Puke due to it's low power) and it came in lots of GM vehicles til about '83 or so. << Jeep must have used the Iron Duke in early '80s CJs before the AMC 2.5L 4 cylinder was ready? I keep hearing about it being used in Jeeps. The Du= ke is okay. Mostly has a good reputation. The AMC 2.5L has an even better rep. though. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 12-Aug-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:03:00 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: When? Thunderbird writes: >> "From your knowledge, would you please give me a little more informati= on to help me with researching this? What vehicle was the AMC full-time four-wheel-drive system installed in? << Jeep Wagoneer >> Do you know that name of the system? << Quadra-Trac. The transfer case was the Borg-Warner T1339. >> Can you direct me to any good sources of information on AMC four-wheel-drive systems?" << Oh sure, now he needs the data. Couldn't have been 2 weeks ago before I went to the HAN swap meet! I did see a Jeep sales/technical fold-out from= '73 explaining the Q-T's operation at the swap :-(. I have a few things published by Jeep on the Q-T. I could search for them, hopefully find them, copy them and mail them to him? -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 12-Aug-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:03:02 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 48 Jeepster "R.J. Baynum" writes: >> I ran in to a couple in Coeur D Alene, who had a Beautiful , 48 Jeepster, from Ca, on I 90, registered historical... I got some great shots! has a 327 in it it, it was sooo << Was it converted to 4WD? Originally, they were all 2WD. A lot of them have been converted though. The only one I've seen up close had been converted to 4WD. I saw one in a parade a couple of years back and I can'= t remember if that one was converted as well or not. They're cool. I did see a Commando participating in HAN. Also a very nice CJ-2x. It was not original (had a Buick 231 OF), but it was very nicely done. Also checked-out plenty of "disco" trucks. Mainly Early '70s= Chevys lifted so high the only way they can travel is on a trailer. I did= see a CJ-5 running at least 40s and it was moving under it's own power an= d no u-joints failed during the time I could observe its progress. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 12-Aug-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:03:01 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: lockup torque converter "Jason Whitaker" writes: >> I'd like to get a lockup torque converter. The lockup feature is electrically controlled right? Could a switch be wired in to engage th= e lockup on downhills? Would this give you compression braking? << Jason, No problem. It's more "electrical" than "electronic." There are to= ns of solutions for lock-up on the 700R4. Starting with a simple switch you have to flip. Others will lock the converter at the appropriate time for you. I don't know how they all work since, I'm using a '98 4L60E for my retrofit. It has no TV cable like the 700R4 and converter lock-up is trul= y electronic. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 12-Aug-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:03:04 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 700r4 to ? Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) writes: >> I thought the GM's with NP208 had divorced cases? (I'm not sure about the newer ones, but I know my '68 1/2 ton farm truck did) << I'm almost sure the 208 wasn't divorced in the early '80s Chevys. The last mainstream 4WD I can remember with a divorced case is the mid-'70s Dodge 3/4 or better trucks which ran a divorced 205. Dodge did marry them= though and it might still be possible to get a 205 in a 3/4 ton or better= truck. Chevy and Ford both used the 205 as well, but not divorced. >> The Dodge NP208 is rightside drive, opposite of the Jeep. << So is the Chevy 208. The question is whether or not they all use the same input? Jeep, Dodge & Chevy 208s. And if you don't know the answer, I= don't know where we can find out? You're the resident NP t-case guru :-).= >> What about the GM NP206? << Tell me! I don't know anything about the 206. >> Definitely is! All the scout outputs are 21 spline, AFAIK (that I have personally seen in 100 or so) and mopst Jeep are 23 spline ('80 -'81= have the occaisional 21) << I've heard the D-20s had two inputs in FSJs and those are the spline coun= ts I heard. 21 and 23 spline. SuperKen ran headlong into the different spline problem with his D-20 shenanigans. It may still be true that a Sco= ut D-300 (only used in 1980) will bolt-up in place of a 21 spline FSJ D-20? That might get you a 300 behind the TH-400. Not sure how to get a 300 behind a 700R4 though. Besides calling Advanced, of course. The GM 208 would work behind a 700R4 for a pre '80 FSJ because those two came from GM together. If the Dodge and GM 208s use the same input, then = we can add Dodge to the list. If the Jeep NP-208 is the same as the GM 208, then a 700R4 will go in front of one of those pretty easily as well and serve the '80 & up FSJ crowd. That would be nice, buy a $200 adapter, AMC= engine to Chevy tranny, and you're home free. Oh...someone just posted a $300 quote for the $200 adapter. Advanced might have raised their prices.= All 4WD 700R4s in 1/2 tons or larger have a 27 spline output shaft. They cost about $90 from the GMC dealer when you have to buy one to put in a 4L60E...which I did. Lots of variables... >> Someone on the AMC-list mentioned using a GM 200-4r because it was stronger than the 700 r4, but I don't know for sure. What do the newer GM= s use for transfercases? What side outputs? Inquisitive minds want to know!= << 2004R didn't come in a 4WD. Might be tough to adapt one as a result. I've heard the 2004R and 700R4 are pretty much equal when "built." The 70= 0 does have the advantage of a 3.06 1st vs. the 200's 2.75ish. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 12-Aug-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:15:16 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: projection, mpg? Old Blue got to 13.75 with AMSOIL alone... Hmmm... I'll have to see what the outcome of the J10 will be. I'll convert it 100% to AMSOIL, monitor it's mileage then give serious thought to the projection, or swapping in a 4.0L. :) I'm waiting for the pictures. not afraid of dos... dos is fine... :) they just have the directory separator backwards, that's all... that and they don't know how to handle file systems... the letter thing is really, really dumb... :) john At 11:16 PM 8/11/99 -0400, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: >It went from barely 10 to around 14.4. I conservatively call it a 40% >increase. > >If the rest of the engine is OK, it runs as smooth as glass. It'll also >make up for some problems, such as vacuum leaks. > >The downside is that I have already gone through an O2 sensor and a MAP >sensor. You can get along without the O2 sensor, but the MAP sensor is a >necessity. > >Of course, you have to have a laptop (minimum 286 with EGA monitor). I >hope you're not afraid of DOS :) > >Seriously, though, the program is loaded from a batch file, and typing >HOLLEY at the C:\ prompt gets you going. > > >Ray Drouillard > > >On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:43:16 -0700 john nospam)> writes: >>At 01:34 AM 8/11/99 -0400, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: >>>Nope... all I have is the stock Motorcraft two-lunger. It's in decent >>>shape, but it only yielded 10 MPG. The Holley Pro-Jection has about >paid >>>for itself in better mileage by now :) >>>Ray Drouillard >> >>how much better mileage? I'm getting very serious about >>a J10, it has a 2v now, but that can be changed. :) >> >>Because it's an 80 I can install my 4.0L/AW4spd and NP xfr case... >>BUT, if the projection gets similar mileage I can sell of that >>hardware to pay for the conversion. .. >> >>so how good is it? >> >>john > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:23:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: RE: NP206 Unfortunately, I don't know much about the NP206, except they came behind big block Chevs, and were nearly bulletproof. I had one before I knew how rare they were. I took it to a rebuild shop (I was going to put it in my IH 4x4 pickup) and it disappeared somehow. Never did pursue it at the time, but my word of mouth lost them enough business they went belly up! (I was doing trannies hand over fist, and didn't know anything about transfercases except very limited basics til 1 year ago when I took a crash course) Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:29:45 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: tie-rod goodies - from kamp dave passing another jewel from Kamp Dave... :)' - ------------------------- For those of you considering sleeving your tie-rods for more strength, here's some helpful info. Jeff or somebody mentioned the OD of an XJ tie-rod as being 7/8"... I can't verify, but won't argue, as it's probably about as close as I could measure without cleaning and mic'ing mine... However, 7/8" = 0.875". Just for grins, I pulled out my Chicago Tube and Iron guidebook of dimensions for common mechanical DOM tubing. I found the following sizes which all carry a 0.875" ID that would fit nicely over a .0875 tie rod... assuming it is clean, nonrusty, and round (some aren't quite round!!!). Upon calculation, I've found that a 1-1/8 x 1/8" tubing has a nominal ID of .878"... very close to the tie-rod's OD. As long as the tie-rod is nice and clean, and the tubing you select has a very clean interior (the seam isn't distorted), (and that 7/8" dimension is truely accurate) then the fit should be an ALMOST interferance fit- which would be ideal for this type of duty.... use the fewest number of rosette welds to hold it in position. Here is a short list of tubing sizes that yield a nominal ID of 0.875": 1-1/4 x 3/16" (.188") 1-5/16 x 7/32 (.219") 1-3/8 x 1/4" (.250") 1-1/2 x 5/16" (.313") 1-5/8 x 3/8" (.375") 1-3/4 x 7/16" (.438") Get into that 1.5+" stuff and you're automatically inducted into the Overkill Hall-Of-Fame. Keep in mind that if you make a tie-rod that never bends, the next time you run into an immobile trail edifice, you may be replacing a rod-end, tire, and wheel instead... DK :-) --- --- ----------- ------------ --- --- - --... ...-- Strangely enough, Apartments always seem to be together... ___________________________________________________________________ - ---------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Real FREEDOM comes through knowing Jesus http://www.wagoneers.com/BIBLE/ - ---------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:28:20 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: gearless lockers... comments from kamp dave... Subject: Hi John! Gearless lockers... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" passing this along from Dave Kamp (xj list) who is commenting about someone's post about grenading a TAD. :) I agree with him, I can see the back end getting broken, but a U-joint will (or should) give before the tranny does... See what Mr. Locomotion has to say below... :) john - -------------------------------------- Doomie a Favor! Post this!> >I had a Gearless installed 4 weeks ago. 37 miles later it self-destructed. It grenaded >my rear-end (blew a hole in the inspection cover), and took out my tranny >with it. I had a Gearless installed 4 weeks ago. 37 miles later it self-destructed. It grenaded >my rear-end (blew a hole in the inspection cover), and took out my tranny>with it. - --Hi Guys! Dave Kamp here- on the road, but still reading fwd'd XJ posts. For those of you interested, re-read this snip-clip. Notice something- this guy claims to have blown a hole in the inspection cover of his rear end, and took out the tranny? If a failure occurs in a traction-aiding diff, I can understand a piece coming loose and jamming between the ring, and carving a hole in the cover. (Hardly what I'd call a 'grenade', but clearly a mechanical problem...) Out of all the rearends I've shelled (and I've got some trophies)... The only time I've ever taken out a tranny, it was either overworked, undermaintained, or smashed against something much harder than the tranny. How in the world does someone destroy a transmission? Clearly not without drastically exceeding some design parameter. I will NOT admit to being a good enough mechanic to feel satisfied with my own skill and equipment to set up a differential... Matter of fact, I encourage even the BEST of my students to always call in a second set of eyes before closing up a locomotive gearbox, just to have them verify the work. Reason being- even a SMALL error in drivetrain gearboxes guarantees a short service life, and usually includes irreversable destruction. (especially in a 6000hp locomotive) Furthermore, it makes no sense to spend $300-$500 on an R&P kit, another half K on traction aid device, and top it all off by either giving it a 45 minute driveway DIY installation, or paying for inexperienced shop time. So suspend your judgements, plan for the cost of good labor, don't skimp on materials, and BE PATIENT! The bain of all projects: we never have patience or resources to do something right, but always end up expending the time and money to do it TWICE. In a room full of mistakes, the party at fault is usually found by looking in a mirror. DK :-) ___________________________________________________________________ ==================================================================== If it exhibits ambulatory and auditory characteristics consistent with current data on a small waterfowl with flat bill, short neck and webbed feet, it would be illogical to assume that it is anything other than a duck. However, in this era of post-modern license with basic linguistic commodities, our view is only relative and if we say we know the truth, we will be labeled a hateful, narrow-minded, intolerant bigot. So a duck is only a duck when you embrace his world view, otherwise, it's just a bunch of funny looking parts. ==================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:53:17 EDT From: REBluvzCLM-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: I NEED HELP WITH MY COMANCHE!!! hi, i just bought a 1987 Jeep Comanche with a 150 cid 2.5 liter 4 cyl 4 speed the only problem is that it needs an engine because the one it has is blown and i was wondering if ANYONE knows where i can get the original size engine(cause i like to keep my jeeps as original as i can possibly get them) and at a fairly good price as well because my 1979 Jeep Cherokee Chief has a habit of having things break at the times that i REALLY need it so please tell me any information you can give me....any information around the Alabama area would help a bunch BUT ANY information, reguardless of location will be greatly appreciated because i can always pay a little more and have it shipped to me(or go and pick it up myself). Thanks Shadow Jeeps owned: 1) 1979 Jeep Cherokee Chief, 360 v8, automatic, full time 4wd, pretty good condtion, etc.... nicknamed The Tank :o) 2) 1987 Jeep Comanche Pickup, 150 4cyl, 4 speed, 2wd, pretty good condition... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:01:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: gearless lockers... comments from kamp dave... A: I hate to say this, but I once grenaded a posi diff, tranny and driveshaft in one go, but as was said "Outside design parameters" ! 375 HP 396 Chev with powerglide. I hit WOT at 3500 RPM in low gear, and the ensuing force blew the pin out of my 12 bolt, which got caught 1/2 way through the front of the housing by the pinion gear, and the diff yoke snapped off, dropping the driveshaft, which beat the tranny to death before I could shut it down. >>>> passing this along from Dave Kamp (xj list) who is commenting about someone's post about grenading a TAD. :) I agree with him, I can see the back end getting broken, but a U-joint will (or should) give before the tranny does... See what Mr. Locomotion has to say below... :) john - -------------------------------------- Doomie a Favor! Post this!> I had a Gearless installed 4 weeks ago. 37 miles later it self-destructed. It grenaded >my rear-end (blew a hole in the inspection cover), and took out my tranny with it. I had a Gearless installed 4 weeks ago. 37 miles later it self-destructed. It grenaded my rear-end (blew a hole in the inspection cover), and took out my tranny>with it. - --Hi Guys! Dave Kamp here- on the road, but still reading fwd'd XJ posts. For those of you interested, re-read this snip-clip. Notice something- this guy claims to have blown a hole in the inspection cover of his rear end, and took out the tranny? If a failure occurs in a traction-aiding diff, I can understand a piece coming loose and jamming between the ring, and carving a hole in the cover. (Hardly what I'd call a 'grenade', but clearly a mechanical problem...) Out of all the rearends I've shelled (and I've got some trophies)... The only time I've ever taken out a tranny, it was either overworked, undermaintained, or smashed against something much harder than the tranny. How in the world does someone destroy a transmission? Clearly not without drastically exceeding some design parameter. I will NOT admit to being a good enough mechanic to feel satisfied with my own skill and equipment to set up a differential... Matter of fact, I encourage even the BEST of my students to always call in a second set of eyes before closing up a locomotive gearbox, just to have them verify the work. Reason being- even a SMALL error in drivetrain gearboxes guarantees a short service life, and usually includes irreversable destruction. (especially in a 6000hp locomotive) Furthermore, it makes no sense to spend $300-$500 on an R&P kit, another half K on traction aid device, and top it all off by either giving it a 45 minute driveway DIY installation, or paying for inexperienced shop time. So suspend your judgements, plan for the cost of good labor, don't skimp on materials, and BE PATIENT! The bain of all projects: we never have patience or resources to do something right, but always end up expending the time and money to do it TWICE. In a room full of mistakes, the party at fault is usually found by looking in a mirror. DK :-) ______________________________________________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0If it exhibits ambulatory and auditory characteristics =A0 consistent with current data on a small waterfowl with flat =A0 bill, short neck and webbed feet, it would be illogical to =A0 assume that it is anything other than a duck. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0However, in this era of post-modern license with basic =A0 linguistic commodities, our view is only relative and if we =A0 say we know the truth, we will be labeled a hateful, narrow-minded, =A0 intolerant bigot. So a duck is only a duck when you embrace =A0 his world view, otherwise, it's just a bunch of funny looking parts. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfal= se ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:05:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: Diesel FSJ FWD from the AMC-list Frank Swygert wrote: Subject: re: Cher/Wag Diesel GM hasn't built a converted gas engine diesel in years! The current crop are purpose built. As you know, the converted 350 Olds diesel was a flop. Most of the German/French diesel engines are small. I already suggested a Merceded 3.0L turbo diesel (300SD), should have about the same power as a 258. Heavy trucks even have four cylinder turbo diesels, geared low with five speed transmissions. That may even be the way to go -- the FSJ Cherokee is about the size of a large delivery van anyway.... - -- Frank Swygert -- Warner Robins, GA Publisher, "American Independent Magazine" (AIM) Supporting all AMC related vehicles, 1902-1987 http://www.javelinamx.com/AIM Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #521 *************************