From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Aug 30 15:32:26 1999 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, August 30 1999 Volume 01 : Number 536 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Re: fsj: 205 / 208 fsj: fleet adjustments... gear ratio? Re: fsj: fleet adjustments... gear ratio? Re: fsj: fleet adjustments... gear ratio? Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Re: fsj: 205 / 208 fsj: FSJ's in the Truck trader Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Re: fsj: 205 / 208 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:23:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Okay John, what am I missing -- a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have we talked about this J10 before, and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be that!! :) ) Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep NP231 will have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were made with 21 for some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). I know yours has 21. Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input shaft. - -brad John writes: > ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable > with my NP231? Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? > > john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:26:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 John, If the 76 J10 has an NP208 behind a TH400, then it probably is a GM NP208 with a passenger side front output. Am I at all close here??? Anyway, if that is the case, the splines, mounting pattern, and front output would all be wrong for swapping in your NP231. - -brad I wrote: > Okay John, what am I missing -- a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have > we talked about this J10 before, and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be > that!! :) ) > > Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep NP231 will > have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were made with 21 for > some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). I know yours has 21. > Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input shaft. > > -brad > > John writes: > > > ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable > > with my NP231? Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? > > > > john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:07:07 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Brad Seevers wrote: >-->Okay John, what am I missing -- a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have >-->we talked about this J10 before, and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be >-->that!! :) ) nope, it's got an NP208, T-18... or it it the Dana 20??? I'd have to check my 76 shop manual... I thought that's where I got the data, either way, it dumps on the passenger side... john >--> >-->Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep NP231 will >-->have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were made with 21 for >-->some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). I know yours has 21. >-->Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input shaft. >--> >-->-brad >--> >-->John writes: >--> >-->> ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable >-->> with my NP231? Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? >-->> >-->> john >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** Snohomish, Washington USA don't leave life without jesus, please... http://wagoneers.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:04:33 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 no,it's got the T-18 john On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Brad Seevers wrote: >-->John, >--> >-->If the 76 J10 has an NP208 behind a TH400, then it probably is a GM NP208 >-->with a passenger side front output. Am I at all close here??? Anyway, >-->if that is the case, the splines, mounting pattern, and front output would >-->all be wrong for swapping in your NP231. >--> >-->-brad >--> >-->I wrote: >--> >-->> Okay John, what am I missing -- a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have >-->> we talked about this J10 before, and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be >-->> that!! :) ) >-->> >-->> Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep NP231 will >-->> have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were made with 21 for >-->> some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). I know yours has 21. >-->> Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input shaft. >-->> >-->> -brad >-->> >-->> John writes: >-->> >-->> > ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable >-->> > with my NP231? Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? >-->> > >-->> > john >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** Snohomish, Washington USA don't leave life without jesus, please... http://wagoneers.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:17:38 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: fleet adjustments... gear ratio? I've decided to part with my 81 300D so I can get an 80 J10. I'm wondering what the recommended gearing would be to run 33x9.5's? The little wagoneer is running 30x9.5's with 4.10's and is about 3% faster in rpm than stock, meaning I could go a taller tire... However, with the J10 it's got 2.79's and meant to run slower in rpm... would 3.73's be a good blend so I don't lose mileage? Peak torque is around 1600 rpm in the 360 V8... but if anything happens to the 360 I'm gonna drop in an XJ 4.0L... so I'd like to hit some sort of happy medium... suggestions? email me off list if you're interested in a nice Benz... :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** Snohomish, Washington USA don't leave life without jesus, please... http://wagoneers.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:34:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: fleet adjustments... gear ratio? I've decided to part with my 81 300D so I can get an 80 J10. I'm wondering what the recommended gearing would be to run 33x9.5's? A: I'm going to 3.31, but that's because I want highway travelling, and it will match (almost) the 2.72s I have now (2.89) The little wagoneer is running 30x9.5's with 4.10's and is about 3% faster in rpm than stock, meaning I could go a taller tire... However, with the J10 it's got 2.79's A: 2.79? or 2.72 or 2.89 or 3.09? There's no 2.79 in either Dana 44 or Model 20 that I know of. Maybe Dana 60. You can't put any lower gears on the 2.72 carrier. Only higher. If it's a Dana 44, I have 3.08s from Jerry (not sure if lower can go on that carrier or not. You'd have to ask Randy) and meant to run slower in rpm... would 3.73's be a good blend so I don't lose mileage? A: To find comparison's check out http://www.4lo.com/ for online ratio/tire size selectors. It even gives you optimum ranges to play with, and you can add your low range ratio to find out the final to earth ratio. If you want to pull the 2.72s, let me know, because my rear gears are dead now (front seal blew coming back from Canada, and it's nearly empty, because the shop that filled it while I was up there put in synthetic oil with the 80w-90 that's in it!) Peak torque is around 1600 rpm in the 360 V8... but if anything happens to the 360 I'm gonna drop in an XJ 4.0L... so I'd like to hit some sort of happy medium... suggestions? A: I would suggest 3.53? approx for highway driving, unless you have a lockup 727. email me off list if you're interested in a nice Benz... :) john =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0---- A: We know why it's called Fritz though! Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfal= se ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:40:14 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: fleet adjustments... gear ratio? On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, James Blair wrote: >-->A: We know why it's called Fritz though! shhhh... :) Seriously, the bugs are worked out. When I got him the windows, a/c-heater, cruise and radio didn't work... at all... or intermittently. :) turns out that lots of it was simply inexperienced hands under the dash (previous owner?). Simply cleaning switches and correcting the wiring fixed most of the problems. The vacuum system required several transplants... all done. Central lock system works as designed, very nice. :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** Snohomish, Washington USA don't leave life without jesus, please... http://wagoneers.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:55:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 A: Are we talking about the '76 or '80? If it's the '80, it will be LH front driveshaft, unless Jeep held over the RH on the trucks only? I know the 208 shifter has only 2hi, 4hi, n 4lo on it (in reverse order on std trans) and the 300 and 20 have a different shift pattern (split shift or sideways lever?) I've been told that my '83 has 21 splines, but the transfercase input gear can be changed to 23. The 208 is shorter than the 229 by about 6 inches, but the front shaft is same length (although if it's on the RH, it may be different) On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Brad Seevers wrote: Okay John, what am I missing -- a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have we talked about this J10 before, and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be that!! :) ) J: nope, it's got an NP208, T-18... or it it the Dana 20??? I'd have to check my 76 shop manual... I thought that's where I got the data, either way, it dumps on the passenger side... john B: Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep NP231 will have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were made with 21 for some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). I know yours has 21. Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input shaft. - -brad John writes: ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable with my NP231? Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? john Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:58:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 A: According to some CJers I have chatted with, they came with RH fronts, even with the 904 trannies (baby brother to 727) John, If the 76 J10 has an NP208 behind a TH400, then it probably is a GM NP208 with a passenger side front output. Am I at all close here??? Anyway, if that is the case, the splines, mounting pattern, and front output would all be wrong for swapping in your NP231. - -brad I wrote: Okay John, what am I missing -- a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have we talked about this J10 before, and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be that!! :) ) Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep NP231 will have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were made with 21 for some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). I know yours has 21. Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input shaft. - -brad John writes: ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable with my NP231? Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? john Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:06:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Jim, you are right: all FSJs were RH pumkin in front through 79, then in 80 and later they were all LH pumkin in front. There was no holdovers. I'll check the parts manual on 208 spline counts, but I don't think there were any 21 spline NP208s (at least I don't remember any in FSJs). If there were, it would be pretty easy to swap, but does require disasembling the case. - -brad Jim writes: > A: Are we talking about the '76 or '80? If it's the '80, it will be LH > front driveshaft, unless Jeep held over the RH on the trucks only? I > know the 208 shifter has only 2hi, 4hi, n 4lo on it (in reverse order on > std trans) and the 300 and 20 have a different shift pattern (split > shift or sideways lever?) I've been told that my '83 has 21 splines, but > the transfercase input gear can be changed to 23. The 208 is shorter > than the 229 by about 6 inches, but the front shaft is same length > (although if it's on the RH, it may be different) > > On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Brad Seevers wrote: > Okay John, what am I missing -- a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have > we talked about this J10 before, and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be > that!! :) ) > > J: nope, it's got an NP208, T-18... or it it the Dana 20??? I'd have to > check my 76 shop manual... I thought that's where I got the data, either > way, it dumps on the passenger side... > john > > B: Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep > NP231 will have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were > made with 21 for some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). > I know yours has 21. Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input > shaft. > -brad > > John writes: > ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable with my NP231? > Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? > john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:08:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 Ya, but CJs never came with NP208s. - -brad Jim writes: > A: According to some CJers I have chatted with, they came with RH > fronts, even with the 904 trannies (baby brother to 727) > > John, > If the 76 J10 has an NP208 behind a TH400, then it probably is a GM > NP208 with a passenger side front output. Am I at all close here??? > Anyway, if that is the case, the splines, mounting pattern, and front > output would all be wrong for swapping in your NP231. > -brad > I wrote: > Okay John, what am I missing -- a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have > we talked about this J10 before, and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be > that!! :) ) > Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep NP231 > will have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were made with > 21 for some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). I know > yours has 21. Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input shaft. > -brad > John writes: > ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable with my NP231? > Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? > john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:25:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 A: So does swapping the input shaft (disassembling the tranny) I sort of remember in some of the old posts on the binder bulletin that they used 21 spline 727s and 208 RH outputs with the IH V8 and AMC 6 in the Scouts and 4x4 Travelalls. Brad wrote: Jim, you are right: all FSJs were RH pumkin in front through 79, then in 80 and later they were all LH pumkin in front. There was no holdovers. I'll check the parts manual on 208 spline counts, but I don't think there were any 21 spline NP208s (at least I don't remember any in FSJs). If there were, it would be pretty easy to swap, but does require disasembling the case. - -brad Jim writes: A: Are we talking about the '76 or '80? If it's the '80, it will be LH front driveshaft, unless Jeep held over the RH on the trucks only? I know the 208 shifter has only 2hi, 4hi, n 4lo on it (in reverse order on std trans) and the 300 and 20 have a different shift pattern (split shift or sideways lever?) I've been told that my '83 has 21 splines, but the transfercase input gear can be changed to 23. The 208 is shorter than the 229 by about 6 inches, but the front shaft is same length (although if it's on the RH, it may be different) On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Brad Seevers wrote: Okay John, what am I missing -- a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have we talked about this J10 before, and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be that!! :) ) J: nope, it's got an NP208, T-18... or it it the Dana 20??? I'd have to check my 76 shop manual... I thought that's where I got the data, either way, it dumps on the passenger side... john B: Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep NP231 will have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were made with 21 for some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). I know yours has 21. Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input shaft. - -brad John writes: ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable with my NP231? Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? john Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:47:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: FSJ's in the Truck trader Big week for FSJs in the paper last week. Probably something to do with the $.60 a gallon gas price increase! I'm shopping for a J20 for my wife to pull our 5th wheel with (found one, but can't contact the owner) '89 GW 91K tow pack and overhead console $7250 day# 360-273-7744 or eve# 360-807-2171 Rochester WA '87 GW winch, 2nd owner, records, sun valley orig, 76K, $7,800 425-649-8992 Bellevue WA '81 Wag ltd Factory power sunroof, new paint, CD, alloys, running boards, hi-rise 4bbl, OME shocks, fresh trans, pearl blue w/leather interior $4950 425-393-4650 Renton WA '89 GW 137K, rebuilt V8, fully loaded with tow package, AC, green paint, tan leather moving must sell $5200 obo 425-643-4427 Bellevue, WA '88 GW 183K, great runner, burg leather interior, need paint. blue book $5600 (yeah in pristine cond!) asking $4800 360-479-1988 bremerton wa '87 GW blaupunkt CD, 15000 total rebuilt 360 $5995 360-423-3308 360-423-4030 Longview WA '87 GW 95K $7300 obo 206-463-3296 Vashon, WA '86 GW the orig SUV 144K copper color $3995 206-546-6880 '85 GW 135K, new trans, tow pack $4000 360-652-2693 Stanwood WA '86 GW mettalic red $6000 206-524-5252 Seattle wa '85 GW 77K CD, $5995 206-285-4150 Seattle '86 GW 40K on new motor $4750 206-878-9500 Associate fleet seattle '84 GW with a lift and no woodgrain, tto much to list, what's not new is rebuilt $6000 obo 425-486-1215 Snohomish WA '85 GW tow pack $3500 425-347-2995 Everett WA '82 Wag LTD leather, loaded, 162K $2900 obo 360-658-9061 or 360-508-6875 Marysville WA '79 Cherokee Chief 5K on new motor, rebuilt trans, $1900 360-829-0991 Buckley,WA '84 GW $1800 360-380-2874 Ferndale WA '82 WAg ltd SOA, new 33-12.5-15" BFGs rebuilt 360 with Holey carb and Edelbrock intake Crane cam, Mallory ign $5999 509-884-0960 E.Wenatchee '84 GW 147K, tow pack, wht / wood, leather, $4200 360-779-8371 Silverdale, WA '77 Wag 401, lots of new parts $2000 425-888-9170 N Bend WA '76 J20, 3/4 ton, rebuilt 401, AT Edel intake and carb, Warn 4/2 conversion and hubs with new chain, new paint. Needs engine timing $10,000 in receipts $2995 firm 206-324-2905 Seattle WA '77 Golden Eagle J10 Golden Eagle 360/AT, line-x bed, 62K orig, $4000 firm 253-826-0519 Bonney lake '72 Wag 91K orig, 360, AT pumpkin orange $3500obo Erin at 206-329-3987 Seattle WA '76 Cherokee Chief, 360 AT 31" bfg with 2.5" lift, $5000 ($10K in bills) 425-643-0470 Redmond, WA '49 Willy's PU, all orig, restorable cond, make offer 253-952-4719 Tacoma WA '56 Willy's PU 56K, flathead 6 orig running gear, PTO, 12V wiring, new glass and clutch $2100 360-748-6910 Chehalis WA These are from last Sunday, and I haven't called any. I will post any new later today Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:03:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 I don't think IH ever used the NP208. They certainly didn't in the Scouts. Scouts used D20s until 80. In 80 they used the D300. 80 was the last year for Scouts. But I think you are right on the IH spline count for 727s -- 21 seems to ring a bell. I know IH did use the NP205 in some pickup and travelall combos. They may have used the NP208 -- I don't know. But I don't think the NP208 existed until the late 70s or maybe not until 80. IH was out of the pickup and travelall business by then weren't they? - -brad Jim writes: > A: So does swapping the input shaft (disassembling the tranny) I sort of > remember in some of the old posts on the binder bulletin that they used > 21 spline 727s and 208 RH outputs with the IH V8 and AMC 6 in the Scouts > and 4x4 Travelalls. > > Brad wrote: > Jim, you are right: all FSJs were RH pumkin in front through 79, then in > 80 and later they were all LH pumkin in front. There was no holdovers. > I'll check the parts manual on 208 spline counts, but I don't think > there were any 21 spline NP208s (at least I don't remember any in FSJs). > If there were, it would be pretty easy to swap, but does require > disasembling the case. > -brad > Jim writes: > A: Are we talking about the '76 or '80? If it's the '80, it will be LH > front driveshaft, unless Jeep held over the RH on the trucks only? I > know the 208 shifter has only 2hi, 4hi, n 4lo on it (in reverse order on > std trans) and the 300 and 20 have a different shift pattern (split > shift or sideways lever?) I've been told that my '83 has 21 splines, but > the transfercase input gear can be changed to 23. The 208 is shorter > than the 229 by about 6 inches, but the front shaft is same length > (although if it's on the RH, it may be different) > On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Brad Seevers wrote: Okay John, what am I missing -- > a 76 J10 shouldn't have an NP208. Have we talked about this J10 before, > and I just forgot? (No, it couldn't be that!! :) ) > J: nope, it's got an NP208, T-18... or it it the Dana 20??? I'd have to > check my 76 shop manual... I thought that's where I got the data, either > way, it dumps on the passenger side... > john > B: Anyway, yes, a jeep or dodge NP208 should nave 23 splines. A jeep > NP231 will have either 23 or 21 splines. Most have 23, but some were > made with 21 for some reason (probably just to keep life interesting!). > I know yours has 21. Yours can be converted to 23 by replacing the input > shaft. > -brad > John writes: > ok brad, will the NP208 in that 76 J10 be interchangeable with my NP231? > Or does the NP208 have 23 splines and the NP231 21? john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:13:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 205 / 208 A: I had an IH shortbox stepside 1 ton 4x4 with square headlights, 258 6 cyl 5 speed with O/D, PS/PB/AC tilt and cruise (but I don't know what transfercase), rollbar that was registered as an '81 in Canada. It looked like a Dodge Warlock, except it was Black and gorgeous! Wish my ex-wife hadn't destroyed all the pics I had of it (and all my other cars, including Pontiacs, AMCs, Buicks, Land Cruiser, Toyotas and Vauxhalls!) Brad wrote: I don't think IH ever used the NP208. They certainly didn't in the Scouts. Scouts used D20s until 80. In 80 they used the D300. 80 was the last year for Scouts. But I think you are right on the IH spline count for 727s -- 21 seems to ring a bell. I know IH did use the NP205 in some pickup and travelall combos. They may have used the NP208 -- I don't know. But I don't think the NP208 existed until the late 70s or maybe not until 80. IH was out of the pickup and travelall business by then weren't they? - -brad Jim writes: A: So does swapping the input shaft (disassembling the tranny) I sort of remember in some of the old posts on the binder bulletin that they used 21 spline 727s and 208 RH outputs with the IH V8 and AMC 6 in the Scouts and 4x4 Travelalls. Brad wrote: Jim, you are right: all FSJs were RH pumkin in front through 79, then in 80 and later they were all LH pumkin in front. There was no holdovers. I'll check the parts manual on 208 spline counts, but I don't think there were any 21 spline NP208s (at least I don't remember any in FSJs). If there were, it would be pretty easy to swap, but does require disasembling the case. - -brad Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #536 *************************