From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Sep 15 07:29:52 1999 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, September 15 1999 Volume 01 : Number 550 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: 401 tear-down & 4L60E update fsj: 401 tear-down & 4L60E update fsj: tire smoke, ATF and vacuum lines... fsj: 258 MPI update please? fsj: Seat repair Re: fsj: 258 MPI update please? fsj: Fuel injection Re: fsj: Fuel injection fsj: timing, ATF and fuel... fsj: Floyd... fsj: total lists subscribers Re: fsj: Fuel injection fsj: Re: [TX4X4] My J-10 for sale at swap meet fsj: Re: [TX4X4] My J-10 for sale *correct URL* FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:05:15 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 401 tear-down & 4L60E update I finished tearing-down my donor 401 which will eventually become my SEFI hybrid three weeks ago. I haven't had a chance to roll/haul everythi= ng out in sun light for a real close inspection but, everything, so far, remains in outstanding condition for 151,000 miles on the odo. This engin= e was so well taken care of that there is no sludge anywhere inside the engine at all. The #3 cylinder bore has a gouge which is just bad enough to catch my finger nail. The rest are near perfect condition with many of the origina= l hone marks still visible. I still may be able to just hone the cylinders and use it at standard bore. Which would give me 390 cu. in. since I'm using a NOS 390 crank on the build-up. Likely this would result in me getting forged pistons (with a lot of silicone content so they could be r= un tight...I won't settle for anything looser than .006") since custom forge= d pistons are like Burger King. You can have it your way. As I mentioned before all the rod bearings were good. Even the supposed critical #7-#8 showed no more wear than the others. I measured t= he diameter, which I mentioned before. The rod journals were standard. The lower shell of the #5 main showed quite a lot of copper. But the upper half was not showing any. The #2 main bearing showed a little coppe= r on the lower shell. The upper shell of #2 main showed copper in a few ver= y shallow grooves. All the other main bearings showed no copper. I measured the main diameters and wrote down the #s. When I checked them against the '76 Service Manual, the mains were just about exactly .010" under. So I remeasured and sure enough, the mains were .010" under.= It didn't look like anyone had ever been in this deep since AMC put this thing together. I got the valve covers down and found the tag. Wrote everything down and went inside to the Service Manual again. The tag had = a single "M" on the bottom line and sure enough, it signified .010" under o= n the mains from the factory. Oh...not removing the flexplate did backfire. AFter loosening the bolts, I could move it around, but I couldn't get it out of there. Ended-up havi= ng move everything from on top of and around my engine hoist and lift the block off the stand long enough to drop it out. I need to work-up a list for the machine shop now and find a box all the parts fit nicely into. stay tuned. A few weeks ago my new friends at Art Carr called and said my tranny computer and converter were finally done. It took me until yesterday to g= et up there and pick them up. But I now have everything I need to swap the tranny except a 360 flex-plate with the smaller GM 3 bolt pattern. They were unable to provide me with a dual pattern converter so, my converter has the smaller dia. pattern. I'll probably get the flex-plate from Advan= ce for the interim. When the day comes to hook the SEFI hybrid up to the new= tranny, I'll probably spring for a real nice SFI approved flex-plate like= a Reactor and have it balanced along with everything else. I also have to mount and dress-in the wiring for the computer before I can start on the mechanical stuff. This will all have to wait until November. I'm going to be pretty much absent for the whole month of OCt. Going to Extapa (sp?) in Mexico follow= ed very closely by Hawaii for 10 days. I'll be off the list most likely. I'm= not fond of lugging my laptop when traveling by airplane. I didn't when I= flew and I don't want to start now. I like to travel light. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 14-Sep-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:05:15 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 401 tear-down & 4L60E update I finished tearing-down my donor 401 which will eventually become my SEFI hybrid three weeks ago. I haven't had a chance to roll/haul everythi= ng out in sun light for a real close inspection but, everything, so far, remains in outstanding condition for 151,000 miles on the odo. This engin= e was so well taken care of that there is no sludge anywhere inside the engine at all. The #3 cylinder bore has a gouge which is just bad enough to catch my finger nail. The rest are near perfect condition with many of the origina= l hone marks still visible. I still may be able to just hone the cylinders and use it at standard bore. Which would give me 390 cu. in. since I'm using a NOS 390 crank on the build-up. Likely this would result in me getting forged pistons (with a lot of silicone content so they could be r= un tight...I won't settle for anything looser than .006") since custom forge= d pistons are like Burger King. You can have it your way. As I mentioned before all the rod bearings were good. Even the supposed critical #7-#8 showed no more wear than the others. I measured t= he diameter, which I mentioned before. The rod journals were standard. The lower shell of the #5 main showed quite a lot of copper. But the upper half was not showing any. The #2 main bearing showed a little coppe= r on the lower shell. The upper shell of #2 main showed copper in a few ver= y shallow grooves. All the other main bearings showed no copper. I measured the main diameters and wrote down the #s. When I checked them against the '76 Service Manual, the mains were just about exactly .010" under. So I remeasured and sure enough, the mains were .010" under.= It didn't look like anyone had ever been in this deep since AMC put this thing together. I got the valve covers down and found the tag. Wrote everything down and went inside to the Service Manual again. The tag had = a single "M" on the bottom line and sure enough, it signified .010" under o= n the mains from the factory. Oh...not removing the flexplate did backfire. AFter loosening the bolts, I could move it around, but I couldn't get it out of there. Ended-up havi= ng move everything from on top of and around my engine hoist and lift the block off the stand long enough to drop it out. I need to work-up a list for the machine shop now and find a box all the parts fit nicely into. stay tuned. A few weeks ago my new friends at Art Carr called and said my tranny computer and converter were finally done. It took me until yesterday to g= et up there and pick them up. But I now have everything I need to swap the tranny except a 360 flex-plate with the smaller GM 3 bolt pattern. They were unable to provide me with a dual pattern converter so, my converter has the smaller dia. pattern. I'll probably get the flex-plate from Advan= ce for the interim. When the day comes to hook the SEFI hybrid up to the new= tranny, I'll probably spring for a real nice SFI approved flex-plate like= a Reactor and have it balanced along with everything else. I also have to mount and dress-in the wiring for the computer before I can start on the mechanical stuff. This will all have to wait until November. I'm going to be pretty much absent for the whole month of OCt. Going to Extapa (sp?) in Mexico follow= ed very closely by Hawaii for 10 days. I'll be off the list most likely. I'm= not fond of lugging my laptop when traveling by airplane. I didn't when I= flew and I don't want to start now. I like to travel light. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 14-Sep-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 17:28:51 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: tire smoke, ATF and vacuum lines... got to thinking about the 77 Wagoneer... had someone come over tonight, while he was here I looked at the vacuum lines... yep. The advance was connected wrong. So I tried to make it up the drive... then I found out it's low on ATF... heading to the store right now for some. :) When I was going to put it away I zipped across the drive and hooked a left up the grassy slope... got about 3/4 of the way before the rear end lost traction... since the tranny was engaged, the engine was engaged I kept my foot in it and noticed some funny looking blue/gray/white smoke coming off the tires... :) The choke still needs to be adjusted properly... More later, heading to the store right now... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Washington has laws prohibiting unsolicited commercial email, aka: SPAM. $500 per message. I report abuse. - -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:21:07 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 258 MPI update please? Oops...it's contagious. Now who's posting on the wrong list: - ------------------------------------------------------------------ FORWARDED MESSAGE - Orig: 09-Sep-99 18:22:17 Subject: 258 MPI update please? From: Michael Baxter 74172,1164 To: Phoenix FSJ-List (Posts) INTERNET:fsj-digest-at-digest.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) writes: >> Another thing you may want to look into is I and some people on the AMC-list are going to modify and put my '93 Dodge Magnum heads with M= PI intake on a 401! It takes some machine shop work but an 60% increase in V= E is worth it I think! Without mods, they should run about as well as fully= worked 401 heads with about a 20% gain in horsepower, and better power curve. << Ooh! Where do I sign-up :-). A 60% increase in VE! Lets see, a stock 360 has a VE around 70% worst case. 60% of that would be about 40 so I could have a VE of 110! 110 without a Supercharger!! I think you can see were this claim is going James. Plus, the LA-A block Mopars do not have the same bore spacing as the AMC V-8 block AFAIK. The Mopar B-RBs (440, 400s and the 426 Hemi {which doesn't count}) are the engines with the same bore spacing as AMC's. Roug= h aluminum head castings for the B-RBs have been machined for use on AMC blocks before. I've seen flow bench data for the Magnum heads. While they were flowed on= a different bench than the one I flowed the AMC heads on, they were both done at 28" HG. Who knows about the molded clay used to simulate the port= entry on the Magnum heads...that being the other variable. The Magnum hea= ds are about a full 30 CFM under what a AMC big valve head will flow. Of course, in all fairness the Magnum's only have 1.88"/1.50" valves where t= he AMC's have 2.02"/1.68". A bigger hole is a bigger hole no matter what. And to top it all off, the Magnum engines get worse gas mileage when compared to other EFI V-8s. A 5.2L in a Dakota is lucky to break 13 MPG. That's not indicative of an engine with a good VE number. Chrysler finall= y has a worthy modern engine though. The 4.7L. It seems to be right up ther= e with Chevy's V-8s which are the class leaders in performance and economy.= -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 14-Sep-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:21:16 -0400 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Seat repair Mark Graves II writes: >> New problem: truck won't run when I punch it - it stalls. unless I spe= ed up slowly, then at a certain speed, it will accelerate no matter what.. weird. << Mark, Check your accelerator pump. Crawl on top of the engine after removing the air cleaner, look down the carb. throats and actuate the throttle valves. You should see a nice even shot of fuel in each barrel from the accl. pump. >> missing a heat shield? what does it look like? << The heat shields are attached to the body above the muffler, cat. and there's one under the passenger's foot well above the exhaust pipe too. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 14-Sep-1999 = ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:32:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 258 MPI update please? A: That's okay! It reminded me to ask you about those MPG numbers. The Mopar guys are doing some kind of throttle body conversion to a 4 bbl like setup with the EFI, and claiming around 25 mpg from the 5.2L and 5.8L Grand Cherokees! The engineers apparently messed up a digit in their calculations for the air these things want, which is why the crapola economy from the factory! Michael wrote: Oops...it's contagious. Now who's posting on the wrong list: - ---------------------------------------------- =A0=A0FORWARDED MESSAGE - Orig: 09-Sep-99 18:22:17 Subject: 258 MPI update please? =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0From: Michael Baxter 74172,1164 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0To: Phoenix FSJ-List (Posts) INTERNET:fsj-digest-at-digest.net - ---------------------------------------------- Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) writes: Another thing you may want to look into is I and some people on the AMC-list are going to modify and put my '93 Dodge Magnum heads with MPI intake on a 401! It takes some machine shop work but an 60% increase in VE is worth it I think! Without mods, they should run about as well as fully worked 401 heads with about a 20% gain in horsepower, and better power curve. << Ooh! Where do I sign-up :-). A 60% increase in VE! Lets see, a stock 360 has a VE around 70% worst case. 60% of that would be about 40 so I could have a VE of 110! 110 without a Supercharger!! I think you can see were this claim is going James. Plus, the LA-A block Mopars do not have the same bore spacing as the AMC V-8 block AFAIK. The Mopar B-RBs (440, 400s and the 426 Hemi {which doesn't count}) are the engines with the same bore spacing as AMC's. Rough aluminum head castings for the B-RBs have been machined for use on AMC blocks before. I've seen flow bench data for the Magnum heads. While they were flowed on a different bench than the one I flowed the AMC heads on, they were both done at 28" HG. Who knows about the molded clay used to simulate the port entry on the Magnum heads...that being the other variable. The Magnum heads are about a full 30 CFM under what a AMC big valve head will flow. Of course, in all fairness the Magnum's only have 1.88"/1.50" valves where the AMC's have 2.02"/1.68". A bigger hole is a bigger hole no matter what. And to top it all off, the Magnum engines get worse gas mileage when compared to other EFI V-8s. A 5.2L in a Dakota is lucky to break 13 MPG. That's not indicative of an engine with a good VE number. Chrysler finally has a worthy modern engine though. The 4.7L. It seems to be right up there with Chevy's V-8s which are the class leaders in performance and economy. =A0=A0-- Michael Baxter, Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfal= se ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:39:08 EDT From: Grtdaneguy-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Fuel injection Was I imagining it or was there someone out there that was talking about converting their wagon to fuel injection??? If there was can you e-mail me, I'm interested in looking into that myself. Thanks Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:51:57 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Fuel injection At 10:39 PM 9/14/99 EDT, Grtdaneguy-at-aol.com wrote: > Was I imagining it or was there someone out there that was talking about >converting their wagon to fuel injection??? If there was can you e-mail me, >I'm interested in looking into that myself. Thanks Joe Ray in MI has the TBI setup... Michael Baxter is setting up a custom MPI on a 401... :) And I think James Blair is planning on putting a 4.0L head on his 258... And Tom Anhalt did an MPI conversion on his 258... john - ------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Washington has laws prohibiting unsolicited commercial email, aka: SPAM. $500 per message. I report abuse. - -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:05:35 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: timing, ATF and fuel... Ok, after some 12 years of FSJ ownership I need to make a confession... ...it seems that I've owned what, 3, 4, maybe 5 AMC 360 engines over the years? And guess what? I've yet to see where the flippin' timing mark is. :) So I tried to time this 77 by ear... didn't get it right... :) So, where is it??? I added some ATF and the tranny works much better... It seems that I ran this thing out of gas again... :) So I added about 1/2 gallon... lit right off, did some more timing (attempts) and tried to adjust the idle... then I tried to drive it up the drive... and ran it out of gas again... just let it roll back over to the side of the drive by the fence... There is hope for it... Bring gas and knowledge of the timing mark and you'll probably be able to drive this thing out of here... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Washington has laws prohibiting unsolicited commercial email, aka: SPAM. $500 per message. I report abuse. - -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:26:23 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Floyd... Best wishes to everyone in Floyd's path... ...my folks called this morning, heading over to my sister's house... they were evacuated from where they live... Hard to imagine the size of that thing... the radar images on the web show a massive cloud as big as florida is long! It's been beautiful here in the Pacific NW, finally... I was out working on my rigs in shorts... This is probably the best time of year in the PNW. :) Y'all take care down there... Top of those tanks, get those breather lines up high and watch out for flying/falling objects... (my niece was kidding around about parking her car where a tree would fall on it... guess it needs some work or something... :) The way things work out the tree will probably fall on the car on either side of hers... :) Did you know Clinton already declared Florida and Georgia a disaster area??? How can he do that? It hasn't even started raining there yet, well it hadn't about 4 hours ago... sheesh... I've been through two or three hurricanes in Florida and Georgia... not a lot of fun watching rain go sideways uphill... then not being able to start your rig because the coil had water in it... :) I drove through one hurricane in 78, couldn't see the hood of the car it was coming down so hard... I was glad no one else was out and I knew the way out of Orlando... I drove about 20 miles and I was out of it and into sunny skies... what a trip... Then two days later it caught up with me and I got to enjoy it again in Georgia. :) ttyl, john - ---------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.freegift.net/ - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:43:44 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: total lists subscribers subscriptions as of April 16, 1999: ===================================== xj - 99 fsj - 101 diesel-benz - 75 =========== 275 subscriptions as of September 14, 1999: ========================================= xj - 115 (16 new) FSJ - 125 (24 new) diesel-benz - 118 (43 new) ====== 358 83 new folks since April... It's nice to see things are growing slowly... On the early FSJ list we often fretted about getting too big... :) john ------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com - http://www.wagoneers.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------------------------------------------------- http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/diesel-benz-list.html (81 300D) http://www.wagoneers.com/john/JEEP/FSJ-list.html (77 Wagoneer) http://www.wagoneers.com/john/JEEP/XJ-list.html (88 xj wagoneer) ------------------------------------------------- jesus, don't leave life without him... ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:12:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Fuel injection A: I am! It's getting TBI from an '88 Chev 4.3L (harness is separate that year) =A0=A0Was I imagining it or was there someone out there that was talking about converting their wagon to fuel injection??? If there was can you e-mail me, I'm interested in looking into that myself. Thanks Joe Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfal= se ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 06:27:51 -0700 From: Thunderbird Subject: fsj: Re: [TX4X4] My J-10 for sale at swap meet He is in south Texas near Houston. "-=MuddyJEEP=-" wrote: > my j 10 is for sale, cheap, cheap, cheap....Gotta move it > http://www.muddyjeep.com/j10.htm > > $1500.00 and its yours to drive home > ==================================== > Timothy Kyle aka MuddyJEEP > Nobody fills my heart like JESUS <>< > 97 TJ "Voodoo Chile' ala Flambeau" > 84 J-10 "Double Trouble" > http://www.MuddyJEEP.com > ==================================== Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 ThunderbirdLX 4.6 V8/Sport Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1) Those who fear and distrust the people 2) Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe...depository of the public interest. - -- Thomas Jefferson ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 06:30:32 -0700 From: Thunderbird Subject: fsj: Re: [TX4X4] My J-10 for sale *correct URL* "-=MuddyJEEP=-" wrote: > my j 10 is for sale, cheap, cheap, cheap....Gotta move it > http://www.muddyjeep.com/j10.htm > > $1500.00 and its yours to drive home > ==================================== > Timothy Kyle aka MuddyJEEP > Nobody fills my heart like JESUS <>< > 97 TJ "Voodoo Chile' ala Flambeau" > 84 J-10 "Double Trouble" > http://www.MuddyJEEP.com > ==================================== > ----- Original Message ----- > >From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 8:27 AM > Subject: RE: [TX4X4] Longhorn Ranch info > > > > where is the swap meet taking place? I'm coming from Austin and I had > just > > planned on going straight to Matagorda Sat morning. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Stevan Gajic [SMTP:toe_ball-at-hotmail.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 10:06 AM > > > To: tx4x4-at-MyList.net > > > Subject: RE: [TX4X4] Longhorn Ranch info > > > > > > >i was actually wondering if anyone was planning to head to Matagorda > this > > > >coming weekend. When and where are we meeting? > > > > > > > As I understand it, we're leaving from the swap meet saturday at noon. > > > > > > 98 2500HD CC SWB 12-valve 5-speed. Blue. > > > http://silverstone.fortunecity.com/cosworth/255/ > > > Toe_Ball-at-hotmail.com ICQ# 39301549 > > > Houston, TX > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 ThunderbirdLX 4.6 V8/Sport Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1) Those who fear and distrust the people 2) Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe...depository of the public interest. - -- Thomas Jefferson ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #550 *************************