From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Sep 24 09:25:08 1999 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, September 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 559 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... Re: fsj: diff between 88-91 GWs??? Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... Re: fsj: diff between 88-91 GWs??? fsj: Bad ideas #1 Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... fsj: vehicle tabs Re: fsj: vehicle tabs Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 - JOJO??? fsj: 74 J20, brian's 86 GW and so on... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:16:56 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Jonathan Moore wrote: >-->At 07:26 PM 09/17/1999 -0700, you wrote: >-->John, >--> >-->If I'm reading this correct, you've found a diesel that will fit in an FSJ? any Diesel will fit in an FSJ. Easiest fit of course would be the GM's. >-->Please tell me more. My wife and I were having a conversation about a >-->diesel FSJ. She asked me if it could be done, so being the good husband, I >-->am trying to investigate this. I've heard of 6.2L conversion, a 240D (mercedes) conversion, I've heard of Perkins conversions and I've heard, but not seen, a Cummins conversion... I'd say from what was described that the Cummins setup was not workable... My goal is to use a 6.5L TD. :) john >--> >-->Jonathan Moore >-->> >-->>recase TH400 with Chevy case, rebuild Quadratrac, >-->>find 6.2L or 6.5L Diesel... voila... >-->> one each Full Size JBenz >-->> or would it be a Mercedes Jeep... >-->> or a Jeep Benz >-->> or a Benz Jeep >-->> >-->>either way, it'd be a Benz on a Jeep... :) >-->> >-->>The 300SD Turbo and trans would find their way into Fritz, to give >-->> him a bit more zip... >-->> >-->>I want to thank a friend in Oregon for finding me a cheap Benz to >-->>spark some dreams... ;) Who knows, the cheap Benz might even be >-->>worth saving, in which case I'll sell Fritz and the 77 Wagoneer and >-->>drive the 300SD and get the J10... >-->> >-->>all kinds of possibilities exist... But wouldn't it be cool to see >-->>a Diesel powered 4x4 300SD cruising down the road... full time four wheel >-->>drive... Diesel sounds at idle... sunroof... nice seats... ahhhh.... >-->> >-->>dreamin' again in Snohomish... >-->>better get outside and finish the project I just started... :) >-->> >-->>john >-->>------------------------------------------------------- >-->> john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com >-->> ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! >-->>Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >-->> Washington has laws prohibiting unsolicited commercial >-->> email, aka: SPAM. $500 per message. I report abuse. >-->>-------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >-->> >-->> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA NOTE: Washington State has anti-spam laws: $500 per occurrence. (spam is unsolicitied commercial email.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:24:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: diff between 88-91 GWs??? Greg, What??? I have seen you driving the GG around a few times lately and thought it was lookin pretty good! What are your plans for the Gray Ghost? Yes, you have the 229 TC modes figured out correctly. Keep us posted on your search progress! - -brad Greg writes: > OK, I've gotten the green light to upgrade the ghost ('79 Wag). So, I > am directing my search to the 88+ model years. I believe all of these > vehicles have the NP-229 TCs and 2xD44s(starting in 88), right? Until > now, I have directed all my attention to the pre 80 Wags, but I'd like > some of the creature comforts available in the later models. > > Are there any differences between the 88-91 years? > Drivetrain,interior... > > What year did the overhead console become available (even though it's > that cheezy Dodge console that my parents had in their caravan...)? > > Anyone have any problems with the factory sunroof? > > I believe the 229 TC is a good match for me. 2WD HI, AWD hi (w/ center > differential), 4WD lo (locked center) right? > > Help me figure out which to buy... > > Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:21:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... A: Don't forget the veteran Nissan 6 cyl turbo diesel! With a 4 speed auto, it would have plenty of jam to push around an FSJ! They came factory (from S America) in the non-turbo CJ10s, which are only slightly smaller than an FSJ. On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Jonathan Moore wrote: At 07:26 PM 09/17/1999 -0700, you wrote: John, If I'm reading this correct, you've found a diesel that will fit in an FSJ? any Diesel will fit in an FSJ. Easiest fit of course would be the GM's. Please tell me more. My wife and I were having a conversation about a diesel FSJ. She asked me if it could be done, so being the good husband, I am trying to investigate this. I've heard of 6.2L conversion, a 240D (mercedes) conversion, I've heard of Perkins conversions and I've heard, but not seen, a Cummins conversion... I'd say from what was described that the Cummins setup was not workable... My goal is to use a 6.5L TD. :) john Jonathan Moore recase TH400 with Chevy case, rebuild Quadratrac, find 6.2L or 6.5L Diesel... voila... =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0one each Full Size JBenz =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0or would it be a Mercedes Jeep... =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0or a Jeep Benz =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0or a Benz Jeep either way, it'd be a Benz on a Jeep... :) The 300SD Turbo and trans would find their way into Fritz, to give him a bit more zip... I want to thank a friend in Oregon for finding me a cheap Benz to spark some dreams... ;) =A0 Who knows, the cheap Benz might even be worth saving, in which case I'll sell Fritz and the 77 Wagoneer and drive the 300SD and get the J10... all kinds of possibilities exist... But wouldn't it be cool to see a Diesel powered 4x4 300SD cruising down the road... full time four wheel drive... Diesel sounds at idle... sunroof... nice seats... =A0 ahhhh.... dreamin' again in Snohomish... better get outside and finish the project I just started... :) john Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Stop the Chemtrails! My Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:52:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... The Nissan 6 cyl diesel can also be found in IH Scouts. I can't remember if they had the turbo or not (or if some had the turbo). - -brad Jim writes: > A: Don't forget the veteran Nissan 6 cyl turbo diesel! With a 4 speed > auto, it would have plenty of jam to push around an FSJ! They came > factory (from S America) in the non-turbo CJ10s, which are only slightly > smaller than an FSJ. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:52:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... Ever see any with auto trannies? Brad wrote: The Nissan 6 cyl diesel can also be found in IH Scouts. I can't remember if they had the turbo or not (or if some had the turbo). - -brad Jim writes: A: Don't forget the veteran Nissan 6 cyl turbo diesel! With a 4 speed auto, it would have plenty of jam to push around an FSJ! They came factory (from S America) in the non-turbo CJ10s, which are only slightly smaller than an FSJ. Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Stop the Chemtrails! My Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 15:20 EDT From: dan-at-black.org Subject: Re: fsj: diff between 88-91 GWs??? - --------- {- On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Greg Loxtercamp wrote: {- >-->OK, I've gotten the green light to upgrade the ghost ('79 Wag). So, I {- >-->am directing my search to the 88+ model years. I believe all of these {- >-->vehicles have the NP-229 TCs and 2xD44s(starting in 88), right? Until {- >-->now, I have directed all my attention to the pre 80 Wags, but I'd like {- >-->some of the creature comforts available in the later models. I think all that is right, at least the axels and mention of "creature comforts". I don't know the transfer case for sure, but would be interested in hearing more details about which years and kinds of 4wd used each... Mainly looking for info on my '85, which I think had SelecTrac (definitely not QuadraTrac) -- did not have the pull-down pin on the 2wd<->4wd lever (like the '84 I had before had). {- >-->Are there any differences between the 88-91 years? {- >-->Drivetrain,interior... Only differences I know of are the overhead console and the rear wiper. {- >-->What year did the overhead console become available (even though it's {- >-->that cheezy Dodge console that my parents had in their caravan...)? john said: {- as far as I know there are no differences between the 88 and 91 models. {- The overhead console appeared in 88. I'm fairly sure this is wrong unless it was an extra option or something; my '88 definitely doesn't have the overhead console. I thought '89 was the year the overhead console started (I also noticed it was just the same as the one in _my_ parents' '89 GCaravan). More importantly to me, I think the rear wiper was just in '90 and '91 (which means I don't have it :( ). I also don't know if that was just an option or if it was standard. {- >-->Anyone have any problems with the factory sunroof? (Sorry, don't know anything specific about these from any year.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm glad Norelco invented the Lift & Cut system, because Yank & Pull would have been downright painful. -- David Gunter - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Bad ideas #1 I just finished chatting with some AMC psychos, and we were talking about a 401 powered Mid engine FSJ! Rear facing motor, short drive shaft in the back, switched front and rear diff center sections so it goes the right direction. If you're whining that it will take most of your storage away, how about under the hood? Thoughts? Anyone, anyone, Bueller? Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Stop the Chemtrails! My Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:33:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 Well, my first thoughts are this. There is nothing special about the front and rear diff center sections. If you take one out of the front and put it in the back the direction of tire rotation doesn't change. What you want to do is put a reverse cut ring and pinion in a normal diff. That would change the direction of tire rotation, but I don't think a reverse cut ring and pinion will fit in a normal housing for a forward cut diff. (Possible oiling problems also.) If you turn the diffs over though the tires will spin the oppisite dirction they normally do. But this causes oiling problems in most diffs. - -brad Jim writes: > I just finished chatting with some AMC psychos, and we were talking > about a 401 powered Mid engine FSJ! Rear facing motor, short drive shaft > in the back, switched front and rear diff center sections so it goes the > right direction. If you're whining that it will take most of your > storage away, how about under the hood? Thoughts? Anyone, anyone, > Bueller? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: 112.5 inches... Hey, now here is the sweet part! IH used the TF727 in scouts. I'm 99% sure it was available with the Nissan diesel in Scouts. So this looks like the easy way to put a diesel in an FSJ. Take the Scout Nissan diesel and the scout TF727. Get the jeep tf727 tailsection/tc adaptor and output shaft, swap them into the scout TF727. It would then bolt right up to the FSJ t-case for 80 and newer FSJs! - -brad Jim writes: > Ever see any with auto trannies? > > Brad wrote: > The Nissan 6 cyl diesel can also be found in IH Scouts. I can't remember > if they had the turbo or not (or if some had the turbo). > -brad > Jim writes: > A: Don't forget the veteran Nissan 6 cyl turbo diesel! With a 4 speed > auto, it would have plenty of jam to push around an FSJ! They came > factory (from S America) in the non-turbo CJ10s, which are only slightly > smaller than an FSJ. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:10:39 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: vehicle tabs If the money we paid for vehicle tabs went to support the roads we wouldn't be nearly as upset. :) The politicians use the money from this and other taxes to throw stuff into a general fund... Check out what they're saying about our $30 vehicle tab referendum. :) http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/newc_19990923.html john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA NOTE: Washington State has anti-spam laws: $500 per occurrence. (spam is unsolicitied commercial email.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:45:22 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: vehicle tabs yeah, but that 17% income tax and property taxes more than make up for it. When I left Portland in 1985 I was saving $1600 a year in taxes, all totaled. I looked at buying some land out by Hillsboro and going back to Intel in 94 or 95... analyzed the taxes, and now I'm ONLY saving about $300 a year. :) Our gas taxes are higher, we have sales tax, our property taxes have a lower cost/thousand, but our values are higher... and so on... I did compare apples to apples. Did the full meal deal, still saving money living in Taxington, er, Washington... ;) I still like coming down to portland though... will be coming down soon to pick up my "new" 79 300SD... it doesn't run though... but that's ok, it's cheap. :) ttyl, john On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Brad Seevers wrote: >-->You know, here in Oregon, tags are only $10 a year! No sales tax either! >--> >-->-brad >--> >-->John writes: >--> >-->> If the money we paid for vehicle tabs went to support the roads >-->> we wouldn't be nearly as upset. :) >-->> >-->> The politicians use the money from this and other taxes to >-->> throw stuff into a general fund... >-->> >-->> Check out what they're saying about our $30 vehicle tab referendum. :) >-->> >-->> http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/newc_19990923.html >-->> >-->> john >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA NOTE: Washington State has anti-spam laws: $500 per occurrence. (spam is unsolicitied commercial email.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 01:40:47 -0400 From: Raymond C Drouillard Subject: Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 What's the point? It sounds like a lot of work and engineering to accomplish nothing more than a teenie bit of manouverability at high speeds. Actually, it would make it more prone to spin out. I LIKE the safety of a stable FSJ when I'm driving my family around in the winter. Ray On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) writes: >I just finished chatting with some AMC psychos, and we were talking >about a 401 powered Mid engine FSJ! Rear facing motor, short drive >shaft >in the back, switched front and rear diff center sections so it goes >the >right direction. If you're whining that it will take most of your >storage away, how about under the hood? Thoughts? Anyone, anyone, >Bueller? > >Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs >Stop the Chemtrails! My Homepage: >http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: >http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:06:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 A: This isn't a grocery getter! This is a serious offroad dragmobile! What's the point? It sounds like a lot of work and engineering to accomplish nothing more than a teenie bit of manouverability at high speeds. Actually, it would make it more prone to spin out. I LIKE the safety of a stable FSJ when I'm driving my family around in the winter. Ray On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) writes: I just finished chatting with some AMC psychos, and we were talking about a 401 powered Mid engine FSJ! Rear facing motor, short drive shaft in the back, switched front and rear diff center sections so it goes the right direction. If you're whining that it will take most of your storage away, how about under the hood? Thoughts? Anyone, anyone, Bueller? Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Stop the Chemtrails! My Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:50:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 A: Not so JOJO! If you use the front center section in the rear, you reverse the rotation. Same thing goes if you flip your diff upside down (I did that on a '66 Nova, trying to jack it up) it rotates backwards! Reverse cut gears don't turn the opposite way. They are just designed to ride on the top of the diff so the driveshaft has more clearance. Brad wrote: Well, my first thoughts are this. There is nothing special about the front and rear diff center sections. If you take one out of the front and put it in the back the direction of tire rotation doesn't change. What you want to do is put a reverse cut ring and pinion in a normal diff. That would change the direction of tire rotation, but I don't think a reverse cut ring and pinion will fit in a normal housing for a forward cut diff. (Possible oiling problems also.) If you turn the diffs over though the tires will spin the oppisite dirction they normally do. But this causes oiling problems in most diffs. - -brad Jim writes: I just finished chatting with some AMC psychos, and we were talking about a 401 powered Mid engine FSJ! Rear facing motor, short drive shaft in the back, switched front and rear diff center sections so it goes the right direction. If you're whining that it will take most of your storage away, how about under the hood? Thoughts? Anyone, anyone, Bueller? Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Stop the Chemtrails! My Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:03:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 There is no difference between the front and rear center sections. They use all the same parts. Swapping them will not change the rotation direction. You are right about the reverse rotation not working though. You would need a custom ring and pinion. - -JOJO (brad) Jim writes: > A: Not so JOJO! If you use the front center section in the rear, you > reverse the rotation. Same thing goes if you flip your diff upside down > (I did that on a '66 Nova, trying to jack it up) it rotates backwards! > Reverse cut gears don't turn the opposite way. They are just designed to > ride on the top of the diff so the driveshaft has more clearance. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:13:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 A: I messed up! I reversed the diffs, but not the engine rotation! The fever I got from the flu finaly broke, and I was able to see my error! It would take a modified Transfercase to work then! Brad wrote: There is no difference between the front and rear center sections. They use all the same parts. Swapping them will not change the rotation direction. You are right about the reverse rotation not working though. You would need a custom ring and pinion. - -JOJO (brad) Jim writes: A: Not so JOJO! If you use the front center section in the rear, you reverse the rotation. Same thing goes if you flip your diff upside down (I did that on a '66 Nova, trying to jack it up) it rotates backwards! Reverse cut gears don't turn the opposite way. They are just designed to ride on the top of the diff so the driveshaft has more clearance. Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Stop the Chemtrails! My Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:11:56 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Bad ideas #1 - JOJO??? On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Brad Seevers wrote: >-->-JOJO (brad) >-->Jim writes: >-->> A: Not so JOJO! If you use the front center section in the rear, you huh? JOJO ???? wazzthis??? :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA NOTE: Washington State has anti-spam laws: $500 per occurrence. (spam is unsolicitied commercial email.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:19:45 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: 74 J20, brian's 86 GW and so on... I looked at a 74 J20 last night... 360, 4spd, dana20? with a ramsey 8,000lb PTO winch, a front bumper you could ball room dance on, and a F**D box on the back... It sticks out a bit on the sides, but covers the axle nicely... the guy welded the bumper to frame... there are other signs of hackery... I'm not sure I want 8 lug rims though... the cab is pretty nice... the bed might have to go... I dunno... do I want a 4speed? The pto winch is very, very, very tempting though... :) still have to sell the bike... BTW, got to see Brian's 86 GW last night, and of course meet brian... :) I took some digital pix of the 86 GW... came out nice, also took some digital shots of the 74 J20... if my win98 system will let me, I'll upload 'em tonight... win98 is about the best thing I've seen out of microsoft... I switched my laptop from NT4.0 to win98 rel2, only locks up every now and then instead of 3 to 4 times a day... I have to agree with Brian that Linux isn't quite there yet... Setting up the disks and the hardware is still a bit more than the average user can handle... I'd say within a year or two Linux will be as easy, or easier to install and setup than microsoft systems. I'd very much like to see Office coded for Linux, HP-UX and Solaris... I'm working on an HP right now... I'm dialed into a Linux system. I'm having some of my programmers complile the GNU s/w like gnumeric for my HP system. Once I've got a spreadsheet and PPP for my HP I'm gonna just use my HP system. I've got a nice 715/100 at home, and at work. Oh well... I digress... back to thinking about J10s/J20s and nice looking GW's like Brian's... :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA NOTE: Washington State has anti-spam laws: $500 per occurrence. (spam is unsolicitied commercial email.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #559 *************************