From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Oct 13 20:46:31 1999 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, October 13 1999 Volume 01 : Number 577 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: another adventure... Re: fsj: Cherokee "S" fsj: Re: Top 10... Re: fsj: Re: Top 10... fsj: A message from the other side... fsj: FW: BRC Op-Ec on Clinton Road Policy fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] AE Top 10 Rebroadcast fsj: Re: Cherokee "S" Re: fsj: Re: Cherokee "S" FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:01:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: another adventure... Currently, I have plans to be in Detroit (going to watch a Michigan vs Northwestern football game) that weekend, but my wife may be in India on a business trip, so I actually may be in town...don't know yet. I'd love to have you stop in Portland so I could check it out. I'll get back to you... Greg - --- john wrote: > I'll be flying down to San Jose, CA on Nov 1st, picking up the > 80 J10 Honcho, taking an HP class in Mountain View, CA for three > days and then driving home... Probably will pull out of the bay > area late afternoon Thursday... Gonna see how far I can make it > so my drive on Friday isn't too long. :) > > According to MapQuest. 850 miles, 15 hrs 31 minutes... > > Anybody along the way? > > john > ------------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com > ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > Washington has laws prohibiting unsolicited commercial > email, aka: SPAM. $500 per message. I report abuse. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: Cherokee "S" The part time conversion kit is made by milemarker (www.milemaker.com). The kit costs ~$400 with the front hubs. It is usually installed because the center differential hub has failed...either because of the brake cones being worn or broken(mine were broken) resulting in essentially an open differential. Several part are no longer available for the Borg Warner 1339 QT TC...including the brake cones and the two bearings that either hold the center diff in place or are the output shaft bearings...can't remember which, but I think they are the output shaft bearings, because mine were worn a bit to the point that there is a little play in the output shaft that I couldn't fix (it's been a year since I did the switch). The milemarker kit replaces the center hub and one output shaft. So, to bring the TC back to full time, you would have to get a different QT TC (used), hope all the parts are good and replace the parts or install the new one and sell the old as complete. I have the installation instructions that I could copy for you...just do them in reverse. Not that bad of a job...an evening at most. I've seen salvage yards ask $450 for known good TCs. I've also seen used ones (of questionable quality) in the paper and from friends for $100 - 200. If you buy a used one, there are few things to look out for. #1 In the unlocked (full time 4wd) mode, there should be something like 125 FtLbs of torque required to rotate one output shaft while holding the other stationary. #2 Also in the unlocked mode (and maybe in the locked mode), there should be no rotational play in one output shaft when the other is held stationary. If there is, this indicates wear in the pinion shaft. Also, not replaceable. #3 Check for the side to side play in the two output shafts. Since these bearings are not available anymore, try to get a TC with good bearings. Of course, you would also have to get the solid axle to hub coupler to replace the hubs...as well as the chrome cap...those would be pretty cheap at the salvage yard... Good luck...talk to Michael Baxter (on this list). He has put together a millenium kit for his Cherokee...which includes essentially 2-3 spare QT TCs. He is planning on keeping it for a while! Greg - --- Pat Hines wrote: > > I'm taking Jim Blair's advice and posting the early, unretouched > photos > of my '78 Cherokee "S" to his web site as an album. > > As always, things are never quite what they appear to be. > > The vehicle code indicates that the original engine was a two barrel > 360 V8, not a 401. I've not checked the engine block code to see if > it > is a swapped in 401. This isn't important to me, just need to know > exactly what I'm have for wrench turning purposes since there are > differences. > > One unexpected bonus, and an important one, is the former owner had > a > complete 3 volume set of AMC factory maintenance manuals in > reasonable > condition that went with the truck. I don't know if these are still > available from Chrysler or not, but I'd guess not. > > Rust is in the expected places, the bad stuff mostly confined to the > metal fender flares, and a few spots here and there. None detectable > on > the lower edge of the tailgate, which has a functional electric > window > w/electric defrost, so I'll have to check on the interior of the > T'gate > to see if it's started. > > The radiator appears new and there is a new appearing add-on tranny > cooler. > > The aftermarket part time 4WD conversion kit is one with which I'm > not > familiar. There is a manual vacuum switch in the glove box that is > turned to send power to the front drive shaft. There are Warn manual > locking hubs installed. > > Does anyone know who built this kit? How hard would it be to return > to > the stock Quadratrac? I like full time 4WD. > > Enough for now, I'll be adding those photos tonight or tomorrow. > > > Pat Hines > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:46:35 -0700 From: Thunderbird Subject: fsj: Re: Top 10... You might be a four wheeler if- 10 -you think SPAM Shish-ka-bobs on a phillips screw driver taste good. 9 -you have ever had 2 wheels off the ground and said "We're in good shape". 8 -you have ever "nuked" a microwave burrito on an intke manifold. 7 -you favorite cologne is "Eau de Unleaded" (91 octane) 6 -you have ever heard a counselor say "no I dont think 38" Boggers will work well under your wifes Ford Fiesta" 5 -you like mud cause "its high in mnerals" 4 -every dent you put in your vehicle pops 2 dents out. 3 -you have to get the wheel barrow to clean your drive way off after you wash your vehicle. 2 -you think "protection from the elements"(ie a top) is for wussies And the 1 - you have driven a vehicle for 10 hours straight and never exceeded 3 mph. ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:18:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Top 10... Hey! I resemble that remark! If my wife hadn't traded in her '84 Nissan Maxima, I was going to graft it on the spare FSJ frame I will have, when I swap Elmo's body on the '84 GW frame! =A0=A0You might be a four wheeler if- =A0=A010 -you think SPAM Shish-ka-bobs on a phillips screw driver taste good. 9 -you have ever had 2 wheels off the ground and said "We're in good shape". 8 -you have ever "nuked" a microwave burrito on an intke manifold. 7 -you favorite cologne is "Eau de Unleaded" (91 octane) 6 - -you have ever heard a counselor say "no I dont think 38" Boggers will work well under your wifes Ford Fiesta" =A0=A0=A0=A05 -you like mud cause "its high in mnerals" 4 -every dent you put in your vehicle pops 2 dents out. 3 -you have to get the wheel barrow to clean your drive way off after you wash your vehicle. =A0=A0=A0=A02 -you think "protection from the elements"(ie a top) is for wussies And the 1 - you have driven a vehicle for 10 hours straight and never exceeded 3 mph. ____________ Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr 4.2L six, 999 AT, Manual hubs Stop the Chemtrails! My Homepage: http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html FREE Online Photo Album: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:18:13 -0700 From: Thunderbird Subject: fsj: A message from the other side... I got this from the seirra club... _______________________________________________________ 2) CLINTON SIGNS DIRTY TRANSPORTATION APPROPRIATIONS BILL Over the holiday weekend, in the dead of night, President Clinton signed the Transportation Appropriations bill with the infamous rider freezing CAFE standards. While we had a tremendous victory in the Senate on the Clean Car Resolution in September, the President failed to follow it up with strong leadership. By signing a dirty bill, the President continued to let Congress tie his hands on new miles per gallon standards for gas guzzling SUVs and other light trucks. This is particularly bad news, since the EPA's recently released Fuel Economy Trends Report shows that: *All of the fuel economy gains from technological improvements over the last twelve years have been more than offset by the proliferation of larger, heavier, gas-guzzling vehicles on the roads * The average fuel economy for new vehicles in the 1999 model year was only 23.8 miles per gallon, the lowest level since 1980 * The 1999 model year average represents the steepest annual decline in fuel economy since 1975, falling .6 mpg from 1998 to 1999 Note that the EPA conveniently held release of the Trends report until AFTER the September 15th vote in the Senate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~Isn't that ironic...Their beloved socialists, may have done something to hurt their cause...~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thanks to the help of activists across the country we successfully put gas guzzling SUVs and global warming front and center in the Senate. Forty Senators are now on record supporting action on fuel economy standards. We had a tremendous floor debate led by Senators Gorton, Bryan and Feinstein. We are disappointed that the President didn't veto the bill, but we are well poised for the fight next year!!!!! And, this is a great opportunity to educate your neighbors and elected officials about just how bad this dirty bill is -- so please write a letter to the editor of your local paper. Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 ThunderbirdLX 4.6 V8/Sport Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1) Those who fear and distrust the people 2) Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe...depository of the public interest. - -- Thomas Jefferson ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:44:02 -0700 From: Thunderbird Subject: fsj: FW: BRC Op-Ec on Clinton Road Policy "Doug Chartier" wrote: > Ths was sent to me by the guy who did the write up on my CBrack for > Off-Road.com. You need to read it. > Doug Chartier > > > > -----Original Message----- > >---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > > > >From: Donald C. Amador, 112531,1311 > >TO: AwiseUmedia, INTERNET:brdon_a-at-sharetrails.org > >DATE: 10/12/99 2:31 PM > > > >RE: Copy of: BRC Op-Ed on Clinton Road Policy > > > >Dear M/U Interests, > > > >Please feel free to FWD this op-ed to your own email networks and media > >contacts ASAP. > > > >CLINTON S FOREST ROAD DIRECTIVE TRIANGULATES GREEN > AGENDA > >Op-Ed/Guest Column > >By Don Amador > >Oct. 12, 1999 > > > >President Clinton s directive may close 51 million acres of forest lands to > >the American public and triangulates > >the green agenda for the socialization of our public lands. His proposal > >appears to be one side of a multi-phased > >effort by preservationist groups to enact the Wildlands 2000 project, > >circumvent Congress, and bypass the public > >process as codified in the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA). > > > >Wildlands 2000 is a national land lock-up program that has been endorsed by > >most green groups and apparently > >by vice president Al Gore. This effort seeks to ban humans and their > >activities from over 50 percent of this > >country s land-base. Clinton s directive could close over 50 million acres > >of lands that are currently open to the > >public. > > > >Clinton s directive also thwarts the will of Congress and the Wilderness > >Act of 1964 by redefining the legal > >requirements for what lands can be considered for designated Wilderness. > >The directive changes the concept > >for wildlands from lands untrammeled by modern man with no roads or > >trails of 5,000 acres or more to > >lands of 1,000 acres that often contain campgrounds, public roads and > >trails, and various recreational > >infrastructures. > > > >The third element of what appears to be the biggest proposed land heist in > >American history is the announcement > >of new Forest Service Planning Regulations. These new regulations gut > >NEPA, a law that was enacted decades ago > >to give environmental groups a voice in the management of our natural > >resources. Strangely, it is the green > >organizations who want to change NEPA because it is seen as a stumbling > >block for their land-lock up and road > >closing agenda. > > > >Trying to forward a 35 year old land prescription that closes our public > >lands to the disabled, hunters, fishermen, > >campers, mountain bikers, snow skiers, rock hounders, sightseers, and > >prevents emergency helicopter rescues > >is a concept that should be retired. The general public and our natural > >resources deserve better management than > > let s gate it closed and throw away the key. > > > >More Americans than ever are seeking release from their urban environments > >using various forms of recreational > >activities to enjoy the great outdoors. Clinton s plan may close 300,000 > >miles of forest roads and trails. > > > >Building a bridge to the 21st Century does not mean taking a step back in > >time to feudal Europe where kings and > >lords made decisions for the people. > > > >*Don Amador writes from his home in Oakley, CA on various land-use and > >environmental topic. He may be > >reached by email----- brdon_a-at-sharetrails.org > > > >Don Amador > >Western Regional Representative > >Blue Ribbon Coalition, Inc. > >555 Honey Lane > >Oakley, CA 94561 > >(925) 753-1687 Office > > > >*Please contact Mr. Amador if you would like a photo of Amador on a > >multiple-use trail in the Sierra that > >may be targeted by Clinton s directive for closure to OHVs and mountain > >bikes. > > > >========================================================== > = > >This mailing list is proudly sponsored by Off-Road.com, Inc. > >The Off Road Network, at "http://www.off-road.com" Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 ThunderbirdLX 4.6 V8/Sport Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1) Those who fear and distrust the people 2) Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe...depository of the public interest. - -- Thomas Jefferson ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:28:16 -0700 From: Thunderbird Subject: fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] AE Top 10 Rebroadcast This show includes a spot on the Jeep Wagoneer... Grab Glenn-A10029 wrote: > For those of us who missed it, A&E's Top 10 show will be re-broadcast on > Saturday, Oct. 16 11:00 pm (ET) -midnight, and Sunday, Oct 17 3:00 am-4:00 > am (ET). I assume this is the show. Here's the listing from their web > site: > > Listings for Saturday, October 16 > > 11:00 PM - Midnight > A&E Top 10 > > Cars That Changed the Automobile Industry. > Cruise back in time to discover the technological > innovations and sophisticated imports that changed > the way we traveled. Plus, a look at the collectors and > craftsmen who honor these treasures vehicles. (cc) > [TV G] Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird LX 4.6 V8/Sport Take a look at what happened in Australia one year after citizens were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, including semi-automatic .22 rifles and shotguns -- a program costing the government more than $500 million: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent; Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44 percent; In the state of Victoria, homicides-with ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:57:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: fsj: Re: Cherokee "S" Pat, In response to the bolt pattern of the TH400 to any AMC engine...the bolt pattern is neither chevy or any other GM...it's AMC. There has been a lot of discussion about swapping in other engines/trannys/TC into FSJs. I may not know everything, but I'll tell you what I know... The original TH400 used in the jeeps was the universal bolt pattern with an adaptor for the AMC block. When production levels increased, AMC had a TH400 recased to mate without adaptors. There may be adaptors to attach a chevy engine to an AMC tranny...don't know. Check with Advanced Adaptors. Greg - --- Pat Hines wrote: > Greg Loxtercamp wrote: > > > > The part time conversion kit is made by milemarker > (www.milemaker.com). > > Greg, > > Thanks for your time taken in answering my TCase question. Looks > like > I'll stay with the conversion for the foreseeable future. > > On further examination, my Cherokee does have a 401/4V cubic inch > engine, as most everyone on this list knows that the "401" indicator > is > cast into the side of the block below the exhaust ports. Apparently > one > of the previous owners decided to go for more power than a simple > 360/2V > could provide. If parts are too much a problem with this engine, > I'll > sell it to a diehard Jeep enthusiast that wants to stay all "Jeep" > and > I'll go with something that still has plenty of parts available. > Maybe > one of those 454 Chevy crate motors. It's nearly a bolt-in with the > Turbo400 tranny if the bolt pattern is compatible. > > Does anyone know what bolt pattern the Jeep Turbo400 used for its' > attachment to the Jeep/AMC engine, i.e. Chevy or other GM? > > Lot's of work to do. I'd like to get it running before I do many > of > the "nice things". I've ordered a new distributor drive gear, and of > course there are a myriad of other odds and ends to clean up. > > > Pat Hines > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:44:54 -0700 From: Pat Hines Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Cherokee "S" Greg Loxtercamp wrote: > --- Pat Hines wrote: > > Greg Loxtercamp wrote: > > > > > > The part time conversion kit is made by milemarker > > (www.milemaker.com). > > > > Greg, > > > > Thanks for your time taken in answering my TCase question. Looks > > like > > I'll stay with the conversion for the foreseeable future. > > > > On further examination, my Cherokee does have a 401/4V cubic inch > > engine, as most everyone on this list knows that the "401" indicator > > is > > cast into the side of the block below the exhaust ports. Apparently > > one > > of the previous owners decided to go for more power than a simple > > 360/2V > > could provide. If parts are too much a problem with this engine, > > I'll > > sell it to a diehard Jeep enthusiast that wants to stay all "Jeep" > > and > > I'll go with something that still has plenty of parts available. > > Maybe > > one of those 454 Chevy crate motors. It's nearly a bolt-in with the > > Turbo400 tranny if the bolt pattern is compatible. > > > > Does anyone know what bolt pattern the Jeep Turbo400 used for its' > > attachment to the Jeep/AMC engine, i.e. Chevy or other GM? > > > > Lot's of work to do. I'd like to get it running before I do many > > of > > the "nice things". I've ordered a new distributor drive gear, and of > > course there are a myriad of other odds and ends to clean up. > > > > > > Pat Hines > > Pat, In response to the bolt pattern of the TH400 to any AMC > engine...the bolt pattern is neither chevy or any other GM...it's AMC. > There has been a lot of discussion about swapping in other > engines/trannys/TC into FSJs. I may not know everything, but I'll tell > you what I know... The original TH400 used in the jeeps was the > universal bolt pattern with an adaptor for the AMC block. When > production levels increased, AMC had a TH400 recased to mate without > adaptors. There may be adaptors to attach a chevy engine to an AMC > tranny...don't know. Check with Advanced Adaptors. > > Greg Thanks for your answer, Greg. If I do decide to swap the 401 for something GM, I'll take the AMC pattern tranny out and install a Chevy pattern Tranny in its' place. I have strong feelings that I'll probably swap in a 383 (350 w/400 crank) that's oriented for high torque via cam and other tuning methods. I did some tuning like this for a 350 equipped 1/2 ton Chevy short bed I owned a few years ago. I installed a Competition Cams 252 with the 260 exhaust cam pattern, bronze valve guides, push rod guide plates, screw-in studs, roller-tipped rocker arms, Manly undercut exhaust valves, and TRW swirl polished intake valves. This engine made big torque, actually chirping 32 inch tires on the 1-2 upshift. It still makes me smile. On another subject. I made another discovery about the 401's "lack of running". As I'd known, the distributor driven gear had severely worn teeth, and I think I now know why. The distributor clamp screw boss has been helicoiled. The clamp screw is in fact an undersized cap screw that appears to be metric, it has "8.8" on the head, a metric strength designator. What appears to have happened is the original screw was over tightened to the point of striping the threads in the boss. This allowed the distributor to ride up, and eventually the driven gear teeth wore to the extent the timing was initially erratic, then the distributor jumped time completely. The boss is in housing the water pump bolts to, which appears to be aluminum (I didn't do the magnet test). Instead of installing a helicoil the proper way, the PO decided to simply run the metric helicoil into the old remaining threads and install an undersized screw. Bad karma to have done this. Now I have to decide whether to heli-arcweld the boss and redrill and tap it, or remove the "bad" helicoil and install the correct sized one and the proper bolt. Helicoils aren't inherently bad, in fact, properly done, the threads will last longer than the original ones did, much longer. I'll probably re-helicoil. For now, I'll put a washer under the small screw, and when the replacement driven gear arrives I should be in business as far as actually having a running engine. Then I can get started on that tranny leak! The list goes on. Pat Hines ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #577 *************************