From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Jan 31 11:15:00 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, January 30 2000 Volume 01 : Number 704 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] BIG gas tank suggestions needed fsj: 1981 Wagoneer fsj: Re: Snohomish Fest Re: fsj: Re: Snohomish Fest fsj: stainlesssteel rear disc brake conversion... fsj: Snohomish Fest fsj: hot starts and carb flooding tips (from fsj: Tires fsj: Catalytic Converter Clogged?!?! fsj: Re: Re: Pump Me Up fsj: Re: Wagoneer fsj: Re: Pump Me Up Re: fsj: Re: Wagoneer FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:34:44 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] BIG gas tank suggestions needed Brad Feick wrote: One of few remaining things I need to get to complete my J20 is to find a large gas tank to install where the spare tire mount currently resides. I'm not talking Aero tank-I'm talking about a common yard item. It would also be nice if the float worked with my stock AMC guage. Talking about 30 gal or so. Any suggestions like a certain year Bronco or Dodge van or... It would also make it easier if it weren't a funky shape, and just a big rectangle. Otherwise I'll need a map of gas stations and plan my trips accordingly!! A: Well you can scratch full size Dodge vans off the list! I checked the '84 and '86 I have, and both are 3" too wide, and over a foot deep! AMC Eagles are off sized as well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:09:06 EST From: Grtdaneguy-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: 1981 Wagoneer O.K., This is just a question at this point. I may and I stress may have to sell my Wagoneer. Its an 81 V-8, manuel locking hubs, body in good condition but does need a little work and a paint job. Engine runs well and the transfer case and transmission are good. It has a rear mount for the tire and a big OLE honking brush guard/push bumper on it. The interior is in tact with all original seats. It is tan with the brown interior. If I was to sell it What are the feelings on what would be a fair price. I have an idea but I just want to make sure. It is garage kept in Delaware. any feed back would help a lot in the event that I am forced with a gun to my head to sell her. Thanks Joe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:19:20 -0800 From: "Horn" Subject: fsj: Re: Snohomish Fest Re: Snohomish Fest, what day, tomorrow, January 30th? What time? I will try to be there, all I need to know is when. What can I bring? Jerry Horn 77 Cherokee ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:55:11 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Snohomish Fest A: Actually, it was supposed to be today, but I'll be likely at John's tomorrow too! LOL! I was unavoidably detained (truck load of rubbish, and I needed parts for the Dodge van I got) Anyone out there got a points dist for a 225 slant six I can borrow? The wiring harness in the parts truck caught fire before I got it (Damn Ammeters!) Even my '86 B150 van had the same problem, but the DSPO bypassed the ignition when it burnt out. Jerry wrote; Re: Snohomish Fest, what day, tomorrow, January 30th? What time? I will try to be there, all I need to know is when. What can I bring? Jerry Horn 77 Cherokee ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:14:58 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: stainlesssteel rear disc brake conversion... Anyone ever done a Rear Disc conversion on their XJ or other rigs? ( http://www.stainlesssteelbrakes.com/jeep.htm ) TWO PROBLEMS: 1) studs 2) brake lines I'm trying to figure out what to do with the brake line... the bracket seems to point the flex line at a 90 degree angle from the rigid line... The instructions are in english, but certainly aren't much use... they have about 5 pictures, black and white, and pretty useless... I bought mine used from a friend and didn't see how it was setup, except for one picture, and that's confusing because the one bracket looks almost like it's tie wrapped... :) The studs that came with the original kit weren't with it... anyone got a set handy they could measure the height of the gnurl shank? The stock studs stick up and interfere with the rotor... the drums actually ride on top of the original ones... Argggghhh.... Need to know the specs so I can get 10 of 'em real quick... thanx in advance. The little wagoneer is up on stands and not going anywhere, unless I reinstall all the drum crap on the left side... :( Two steps backward for every step forward, eh? I can hardly wait to start my TBI project on my J10! I wonder what pieces I'm missing on that one... Buying used stuff might save you some money, and it may even make it easier to setup and install knowing that it really did work... but sometimes I wonder if I really should start some of these projects, new or used... ;) The problem is that if I buy a nice "new" or "newer" rig, I'll want to do the same things to it... that's where I get into trouble... There is no hope for idiots like us... We always want it to be better... Remember, Jeeps aren't bought, they're built... Guess I need a bigger hammer tonight... I'm in hot water now... I just killed the only family car... :) I'm sure my daughter won't mind providing us with transportation for a few days... good to have grown kids to bail you out. :) It's that or they get to ride in the back of an open pickup... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:38:11 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Snohomish Fest Sunny day in Snohomish... Dan and Alan made it out in their XJ's. Of course Mark and I were here with our 67 J3000 and 83 J10 stepside and the 88 xj wagoneer... (pictures are in the digital, will post 'em later) Afterwards I started on the disc conversion project... found out the studs I'd picked up this morning weren't the right kind... went back to town and went to several places trying to find the right one... no luck... Dan has been helping me on line with ideas... Tomorrow I'm gonna pull the axle, grab a wheel, a rotor and find a stud that will work. :) I don't believe it has to be exactly two inches long, and I haven't a clue as to the correct lenght of the gnurl shank... so rather than waiting another week with the little wagoneer's hind legs dangling in the breeze, I'm gonna figure it out... Praise the Lord there's sunshine forecast for tomorrow, and 50 degrees... :) Funny story: my wife was talking to my mother in law on the phone about how nice the weather has been in South Dakota... yep, she said that they've hardly had any days below zero this year... rofl... actually I'm sitting here in my office freezing my pasty white backside since my little space heater broke... my goodness, it's only 55 degrees in here... hypothermia and frostbite!!!! :) later, john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:52:22 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: hot starts and carb flooding tips (from Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) writes: >> From October '64 Popular Science, Smokey Yunick wrote regarding a hot start problem on a '59 Plymouth Savoy, and a '51 Caddy: Commonest cause o= f your troubles is wet manifolds from expanding fuel. The needle valve and it's seat in the carburetor were designed for 7 to 9 psi. When the fuel between the pump and carb gets warm, pressure goes to as high as 14 pound= s. << I've had the privilege of listening to Mr. Yunick before. If fact, I just= saw him at the PRI (Performance Racing Industry) show I went to in Sacramento a couple of months back. Anyway, what he wrote applies to vehicles that don't have a fuel return line. Most FSJs do have a return line which would bleed the pressure from= expansion off. I think Jeep added the return line somewhere in the early '70s? Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 29-Jan-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:52:23 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Tires SelecTrac-at-aol.com writes: >> I just installed a set of 31x 10.5 "AP's" on my 83. No lift. 15x7 fac. rims. If you go to that Wagonmaster site (www.wagonmaster.com) and peek through his inventory you will see a GW with 31" michelins on it. Further proof they will fit (with the right rims) without a lift. << 31x10.5x15s on a Wag. will normally not rub as long as you don't take it off-road and cross-up the suspension real good. The largest tire size = no one has ever reported tire rub on is the 30x9.5x15. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 29-Jan-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:52:20 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Catalytic Converter Clogged?!?! "Bednarik, Nathan" writes: >> The only thing that could have clogged it would have been the carb running way to rich, right? << Yes, running a little rich or incorrectly sized catalytic converter. You can't use a cat. intended for a 4.2L on a 5.9L for example. = Once the substate starts to melt it sets-up a death spiral. As more and more substate melts, the cat. becomes more and more restrictive which enrichens the mixture (on a carbureted engine) more and more. Lead in the fuel can cause this too. The substate starts to melt around 1800 F I believe. A correctly sized cat. operates around 1300-1400 F. However, your engine should start once the restriction was removed. I'd start looking elsewhere for the primary problem. I think you just discovered a problem which is the result of the real problem. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 29-Jan-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:48:16 -0700 From: "Chuck Scappaticci" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Pump Me Up Anyone have experience with the Carter or Holley electric fuel pumps? I'm looking for something under $100.00 so I can bypass my mechanical (solve the dreaded vapor lock problem). I already have a fuel pressure regulator in the system (my Edelbrock 1405 demanded it). My 88 GW already has an electric pump (previous owner?) that runs in series with the mechanical and is wired to a switch. It lives on the inside of the frame on the driver side a few feet forward of the gas tank. I'm afraid its a bit tired and would like to replace it before I bypass the mechanical. Also will a big block Chevy fuel pump block off plate work with the AMC 360? Thanks - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:25 PM Subject: fsj: Re: Pump Me Up > In a message dated 1/27/2000 10:37:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, > owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: > > > Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:58:39 -0500 > > From: "B. COLUCCI" > > > > Greetings To The FSJ World! > > > > The USS GW is ready to be attacked with a wrench. The factory fuel pump > > sometimes pumps, and sometimes it does not. > (snip) > > I'm thinking about converting to an electric unit. I know that they > > make them for carb equipped motors; but I have questions. > > > > - Did I dream that somebody in the group said that you should remove > > the unused factory pump; and if so was there some sort of problem about > > a part that would fall into the motor and cause grief and trauma? > > If you keep the old pump in place, the diaphram could eventually rupture. > This might already be the case since the pump isn't working or is at least > very old. The problem with this is that the hole in the diaphram will allow > fuel into the engine cavity. I suppose you could by-pass the old pump and > then worry about letting engine oil into the pump and then eventually onto > the ground. > > > - Did somebody say that you actually get more engine power with the > > old pump gone? > > Seems doubtful. > > > - Somebody must have said something about the installation of a > > dummy plate; and what plate to use. > > I was told big block Chevy, but I scrounged one and it seems way too large to > be useful. I think a saw a pic of a small block Chevy block off plate > somewhere and it looked much closer. > > > - Will I need some sort of regulator and or auto shutdown device to > > control the flow of fuel if the engine stalls or fails to start? I know > > that these are built into the circuits of EFI controls. > > If you want to reduce the risk barbecuing yourself while the fuel pump does > it's thing all over your wrecked FSJ, it would be a good idea. You can get a > switch that will shut off the electric pump when the oil pressure drops way > low. It replaces the stock oil pressure switch and is available from Summit > - among others. The other option is to switch the pump independently with a > toggle on the dash. Not as good a solution because it depends on the driver > having the presence of mind to shut off the switch while the driver may not > be concious. > > > - How much pressure should I put into that standard rubber hose and > > a regular carb. > > Not as much as most discount auto parts store pumps can provide. For some > reason, the places around here stock a bunch of pumps that are way too high > for a carb and too low for fuel injection. Carburated fuel pressures should > be 3 psi to 5.5 psi. I believe Michael Baxter has said it will run fine on 1 > or 2 psi. A cheap $20 fuel pressure regulator (JC Whitney if not locally) > and a fuel pressure gauge (both mounted as close to the carb as possible) > would be a good idea. I have found that low fuel pressures work fine and > don't seem to make vapor lock any more of a problem. > > In all honesty, I'm pretty sure I've never actually had vapor lock problems. > I thought I did when it was 110 once but it probably was a disintegrating > fuel sock. > > > - Anybody have a thoughts on a specific good or bad brand of > > electric pump? > > I think many electric pumps rely on the fuel to keep them cool. If you get > one that pumps way more than the carb will use then it may overheat. If you > put a return line to the tank in after the pump then you wouldn't have a > problem. > > I have a square bodied Purolator (seems to very common) mounted near my > auxillary tank. It's independently switched and I only used it when I > thought I was having vapor lock problems. The neat thing about it is that I > can leave it in-line and fuel flows through it even though it is switched > off. When the weather warms up I'll move it up close to the carb or do away > with it altogether. > > Ben Williams > '71 Wagoneer > '78 F-250 > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:09:04 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Wagoneer At 10:45 AM 1/30/00 -0500, you wrote: >>>> John, I have an opportunity to buy a nice 85 Grand Wagoneer but it does not have a transmission in it nor the transfer case. Body is fair. What should I be looking at to pay for it? How much would a junkyard tranny and transfer case run, used or new? I am close to a junkyard and think they have many jeeps....Just looking for some information Rob "Robert Baker" <<<< A tranny can typically run $300 to $500, a transfer case about $350 to $750 depending on which one you get. It probably had a Selectrac NP229, in which case the higher figure is more likely. Sometimes you can get lucky and find them both mated together and get 'em for $350 to $700 for a set... Do you have the drivelines? Hard to say what you should offer for a tranny less GW... One way is to place a value on it in good running order and deduct the cost of bringing it back from the brink... If you add labor costs into it the guy will end up having to pay you! ;) So, for grins lets say the rig is very nice and would sell for about $2,500 to $4,500 depending on where you are and so on... for math, lets use $3,000 as a fair price, don't know if it's fair for that one without looking at it and knowing the history of the engine. Anyway, $3,000 - $1,500 for trans/xfr case would place it around $1,500.... However, you can buy working GW's in that price range... With the rig being dismembered as it is I'd start with an offer in the $500 range, probably wouldn't offer more than $1,000, unless it came with a good tranny/xfr case... And I'm not sure I'd buy it even then. I paid $650 for a 77 Wagoneer that was running, just not very well... put a carb on it, tuned it and voila. I paid $100 for another 77 with no engine, and $1,000 for an 81 Wagoneer that had mechanical problems... but was otherwise complete... If the thing were perfect except for the trans/xfr case... I might go a grand... it's so hard to tell though... It's not terribly hard to install a tranny/xfr case, but it's not a picnic either. Are you up to the task or will you need to hire it out? Figure the costs... have a pro give you some realistic estimates, locate the parts... total it all up... then look at what is running and available locally... After about 15 Jeeps, more than half of those projects, I'd say look for a running, complete and nice rig that needs minor repairs, if any... you'll be saving money in the long run... I have several T-shirts (all oily) to prove that I've been there before. ;) Best wishes, john - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com 67 J3000 (SJ) / 88 wagoneer ltd (xj) / 83 J10 stepside (SJ) http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:35:26 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Pump Me Up In a message dated 1/30/2000 7:41:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, cscappaticci-at-uswest.net writes: > Anyone have experience with the Carter or Holley electric fuel pumps? I'm I removed a couple of ancient, bulky, Carter electric pumps from my Wag when I first got it. They worked okay but were loud and leaked a little. The noise at least let me know they were actually running. I don't know how new ones would be. I'm currently using a Carter high volume mechanical pump that I'm very happy with. It was around $45 from Summit. I have a small Purolator electric pump in-line back by the aux. tank that cost about $15 at the local discount auto parts store. > looking for something under $100.00 so I can bypass my mechanical (solve the > dreaded vapor lock problem). I already have a fuel pressure regulator in > the system (my Edelbrock 1405 demanded it). I live in the desert and have found the Carter mechanical pump does fine with regard to vapor lock. After a year and a half of fooling around with different combinations of pumps, I've concluded that electric pumps needlessly complicate things and don't solve vapor lock problems very elegantly. My electric pump is coming out (for the last time) this spring when I run all new fuel lines from the tanks to the tank selector switch. I made sure the line from the mechanical pump to the carb was spaced well away from heat sources and that seems to have taken care of the problem. Also, I have no insulation under my hood. I think it helps keep the engine bay cool in extreme heat. I know others say a lack of insulation ruins the paint, but I haven't had that problem. I do notice the wax on the hood doesn't last as long though. > My 88 GW already has an electric pump (previous owner?) that runs in series > with the mechanical and is wired to a switch. It lives on the inside of the > frame on the driver side a few feet forward of the gas tank. I'm afraid its > a bit tired and would like to replace it before I bypass the mechanical. This is a good location for an electric pump - actually ideal for the pump. The problem is that the ideal location for it with regard to vapor lock is as close to the carb as possible. Electric pumps usually can't do their best work that high above the fuel tank. Generally speaking, running the electric in series with the mechanical is not a good idea. If the electric pump is nearer the tank then it puts pressure on the mechanical pumps diaphram that could lead to premature failure. If the mechanical pump is nearer the tank then the electric pump may not get sufficient cooling from the fuel and this could lead to premature failure. If the electric pump is independently switched (as yours is) and only used intermittently (when vapor lock problems occur) then all these problems can be minimized. > Also will a big block Chevy fuel pump block off plate work with the AMC 360? No, you need one for a small block Chevy and it will probably need minor modification. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:21:53 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Wagoneer A: I bought an '84 GW last year that had been in an accident (hood was gone, rad saddle was damaged, and right fender was ripped off, and front springs were bent) for $1000. It ran beautiful and otherwise looked good (John got the seats and interior) and I parted it for things I needed for my '83. There was a complete running '87 in Oregon last year for $1000 too that just needed a tranny. I have a NP229 from it that I may be selling (depending on whether all the parts from the 242 HD will fit in an XJ 242) for $300. I look for a good body first, and the drivetrain can be done after. Heck, why not pull the V8 and go for a 4.0L with 4 speed auto and all the goodies? I may be doing that soon! (since I'm doing a frame swap anyway!) At 10:45 AM 1/30/00 -0500, you wrote: John, =A0=A0I have an opportunity to buy a nice 85 Grand Wagoneer but it does not have a transmission in it nor the transfer case. Body is fair. What should I be looking at to pay for it? How much would a junkyard tranny and transfer case run, used or new? I am close to a junkyard and think they have many jeeps....Just looking for some information Rob "Robert Baker" <<<< A tranny can typically run $300 to $500, a transfer case about $350 to $750 depending on which one you get. It probably had a Selectrac NP229, in which case the higher figure is more likely. Sometimes you can get lucky and find them both mated together and get 'em for $350 to $700 for a set... Do you have the drivelines? Hard to say what you should offer for a tranny less GW... =A0 One way is to place a value on it in good running order and deduct the cost of bringing it back from the brink... =A0 If you add labor costs into it the guy will end up having to pay you! ;) So, for grins lets say the rig is very nice and would sell for about $2,500 to $4,500 depending on where you are and so on... for math, lets use $3,000 as a fair price, don't know if it's fair for that one without looking at it and knowing the history of the engine. Anyway, $3,000 - $1,500 for trans/xfr case would place it around $1,500.... However, you can buy working GW's in that price range... =A0 With the rig being dismembered as it is I'd start with an offer in the $500 range, probably wouldn't offer more than $1,000, unless it came with a good tranny/xfr case... And I'm not sure I'd buy it even then. I paid $650 for a 77 Wagoneer that was running, just not very well... put a carb on it, tuned it and voila. =A0 I paid $100 for another 77 with no engine, and $1,000 for an 81 Wagoneer that had mechanical problems... but was otherwise complete... If the thing were perfect except for the trans/xfr case... I might go a grand... it's so hard to tell though... It's not terribly hard to install a tranny/xfr case, but it's not a picnic either. Are you up to the task or will you need to hire it out? Figure the costs... have a pro give you some realistic estimates, locate the parts... total it all up... then look at what is running and available locally... After about 15 Jeeps, more than half of those projects, I'd say look for a running, complete and nice rig that needs minor repairs, if any... you'll be saving money in the long run... I have several T-shirts (all oily) to prove that I've been there before. ;) Best wishes, john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #704 *************************