From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Feb 6 11:52:44 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, February 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 714 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: bed lifted... fsj: test/ignore/sorry fsj: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:56:47 -0600 fsj: Gladiator info and pics wanted fsj: It's alive! alive! (long) fsj: Re: It's alive! alive! (long) fsj: Something (Else) to look for ....FYI Re: fsj: Something (Else) to look for ....FYI Re: fsj: It's alive! alive! fsj: slight problem... Re: fsj: Something (Else) to look for ....FYI Re: fsj: Gladiator info and pics wanted Re: fsj: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:56:47 -0600 Re: fsj: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:56:47 -0600 fsj: To: "'fsj-at-digest.net'" FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:02:58 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: bed lifted... so far, so good... the stepside bed is now 2" higher... the remaining bolts don't look right. gonna run up to the hardware store for some a little closer to what I'll need. what is really nice is that the fuel tank and filler was attached to the bed so I didn't have to fuss with all that. :) The cab looks pretty straight forward. Six more bolts... whoever is sitting on Murphy, thanx... please hold him just a bit longer. (I actually fixed a couple things on the little wagoneer too... :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:09:13 -0800 From: Joe Schaefer Subject: fsj: test/ignore/sorry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:03:25 -0500 From: "TLynn" Subject: fsj: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:56:47 -0600 New lister....is this thing working? Tim Lynn "ToolMan-JeepBum" "It's a Jeep Thing" ICQ 21916084 75' J-10(in restoration-unnamed) 96' XJ(Skinny) 74' Wag(parts) 77' J-10(Bull-Dawg) 401/TH400, QT, 4" lift, MSD6T & billet dist., 32x11.5 AT's, tlynn-at-sheltonbbs.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:30:05 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Gladiator info and pics wanted Email direct, because he isn't on this list FWD:=A0=A0 Message From: knirps-at-voyager.co.nz (Thomas=A0Nowacki) Hi James, Sorry about my reaction on languages, but the translation-programs can offer you mostly a very poor and Oxford-style English. They are good as an dictionary, but not to write letters. But enough about languages, if anybody on the list wont understand me, he should ask what I mean. Thanks for your great tip "wagoneers.com". I'll be busy the next couple of days to select all the pics. One of the worthfull series is Berts restauration. And to answer your question: I'll need detail-pics from all points and corners about the Gladiators pre-1970 to assamble mine. I bourght it 80 percent disassambled and I havn't an example to look for the details. Details mean - switch positions, component positions, trimming details and so on. Thanks Knirps ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:08:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jeep Wagoneer Subject: fsj: It's alive! alive! (long) Tonight we fired up my rebuilt engine!! Yes!! It runs! After we changed the starter and starter solenoid and then tracked down a wiring problem that I introduced, it started right up. Once it was running we oscillated the engine speed around 2000 RPM for about 20 minutes. It went through a few stages as it got going. First, it was blowing lots of white smoke and the lifters were rattling. I was nervous but we kept going. After about a minute the lifters quieted down and the smoke started to go away but then turned blue for a minute and then cleared up. After that, it ran smoothly with no smoke or rattles. At the end of the 20 minutes the engine was purring away, it was awesome. Tomorrow my friend is stopping by so that we can clean-up the wiring, hook up the vacuum to the TH400 so it'll shift, and run it a little more. Then I can start driving it and tuning in my fuel injection! Here's a list of today's issues: 1. The hot wire to the starter was arcing and put some nice scorch marks on my new starter. We wrapped some electrical tape on the end of the wire, it seems that a little too much wire was hanging from the end of the crimp and that it was close enough to the other metal that it was arcing. This was an interesting one because I am sure that it has been doing this since I bought it. (same wire) 2. I had a minor brain fart when wiring up the distributor and my ignition box. For some reason I hooked the negative wires to the ballast resistor, not the positive. After cranking for a while with no spark we looked over the electrical and found this one. 3. At the end of the break-in run, the ignition sense wire to the EFI ECU melted through because it was touching the exhaust manifold. We were just about to shut the engine down when the wire melted through and the EFI shut-down. I saw the wire melt and yanked the negative battery. I will cut and recrimp the connection, and we will wrap and tie the wiring for the long haul now that we know it works. Even with the issues, it was a great day. The engine is running strong, and there is plenty of throttle response. We will put the timing light on it to see how accurate I was when I put the distributor in, but it ran awesomely. For the amount of wiring rework that I did, I am happy for the low number of errors that I made. This was my first engine rebuild project. It was worth the effort. Here's the final specs on my engine: Engine short block rebuilt by Chuck's Engine Repair, cleaned and bored .030 over Standard rebuilt heads by Engine Parts Warehouse Edelbrock performer cam, lifters, and intake manifold (no EGR). Holley ProJection 4Di Jacobs Omni Magnum Team Mallory Unilite distributor Comp Cams rocker arms and push rods Rebuilt starter, radiator (new core), water pump New starter solenoid, battery cables All new hoses and belts, lots of new wiring Removed BID ignition system Removed all emissions equipment (air pump and egr, never had a cat) Removed rest of A/C system (was already mostly removed when I bought it) Lots of cleaning and painting ...and while I was at it, I put new BFG AT 31x10.5s on 15x7 white wagon wheels on, too. Next is a 3-4" suspension lift and new chain for my QuadraTrac. (already have the chain) ===== John Jacobs - jeep_wag_75-at-yahoo.com 1975 Jeep Wagoneer Royal Oak, Michigan http://members.home.net/jacobsj/index.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:21:48 -0600 From: "TLynn" Subject: fsj: Re: It's alive! alive! (long) If you don't mind me asking, what was your total cost on the rebuild of the engine...and congratulation BTW...I hopw whenever I get to mine it works half as well as yours. Tim Lynn "ToolMan-JeepBum" "It's a Jeep Thing" ICQ 21916084 75' J-10(in restoration-unnamed) 96' XJ(Skinny) 74' Wag(parts) 77' J-10(Bull-Dawg) 401/TH400, QT, 4" lift, MSD6T & billet dist., 32x11.5 AT's, tlynn-at-sheltonbbs.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeep Wagoneer" To: "FSJ List" Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 23:08 Subject: fsj: It's alive! alive! (long) Tonight we fired up my rebuilt engine!! Yes!! It runs! After we changed the starter and starter solenoid and then tracked down a wiring problem that I introduced, it started right up. Once it was running we oscillated the engine speed around 2000 RPM for about 20 minutes. It went through a few stages as it got going. First, it was blowing lots of white smoke and the lifters were rattling. I was nervous but we kept going. After about a minute the lifters quieted down and the smoke started to go away but then turned blue for a minute and then cleared up. After that, it ran smoothly with no smoke or rattles. At the end of the 20 minutes the engine was purring away, it was awesome. Tomorrow my friend is stopping by so that we can clean-up the wiring, hook up the vacuum to the TH400 so it'll shift, and run it a little more. Then I can start driving it and tuning in my fuel injection! Here's a list of today's issues: 1. The hot wire to the starter was arcing and put some nice scorch marks on my new starter. We wrapped some electrical tape on the end of the wire, it seems that a little too much wire was hanging from the end of the crimp and that it was close enough to the other metal that it was arcing. This was an interesting one because I am sure that it has been doing this since I bought it. (same wire) 2. I had a minor brain fart when wiring up the distributor and my ignition box. For some reason I hooked the negative wires to the ballast resistor, not the positive. After cranking for a while with no spark we looked over the electrical and found this one. 3. At the end of the break-in run, the ignition sense wire to the EFI ECU melted through because it was touching the exhaust manifold. We were just about to shut the engine down when the wire melted through and the EFI shut-down. I saw the wire melt and yanked the negative battery. I will cut and recrimp the connection, and we will wrap and tie the wiring for the long haul now that we know it works. Even with the issues, it was a great day. The engine is running strong, and there is plenty of throttle response. We will put the timing light on it to see how accurate I was when I put the distributor in, but it ran awesomely. For the amount of wiring rework that I did, I am happy for the low number of errors that I made. This was my first engine rebuild project. It was worth the effort. Here's the final specs on my engine: Engine short block rebuilt by Chuck's Engine Repair, cleaned and bored .030 over Standard rebuilt heads by Engine Parts Warehouse Edelbrock performer cam, lifters, and intake manifold (no EGR). Holley ProJection 4Di Jacobs Omni Magnum Team Mallory Unilite distributor Comp Cams rocker arms and push rods Rebuilt starter, radiator (new core), water pump New starter solenoid, battery cables All new hoses and belts, lots of new wiring Removed BID ignition system Removed all emissions equipment (air pump and egr, never had a cat) Removed rest of A/C system (was already mostly removed when I bought it) Lots of cleaning and painting ...and while I was at it, I put new BFG AT 31x10.5s on 15x7 white wagon wheels on, too. Next is a 3-4" suspension lift and new chain for my QuadraTrac. (already have the chain) ===== John Jacobs - jeep_wag_75-at-yahoo.com 1975 Jeep Wagoneer Royal Oak, Michigan http://members.home.net/jacobsj/index.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 01:19:03 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Something (Else) to look for ....FYI I've been dealing with "warm" starting problems lately and narrowed it down to the starter. You guy's were right on about the "missing" bolt, it was on the tranny side - what an ignoramus I was. Anyway, I took the starter "core" back for a refund and as I was leaving had similar warm starting probelems. To make a long story short, someone offered to help me test the battery under load and as he looked at the battery and I started the engine he waved his hands wildly. The starter "relay" or switch was shooting lightning, as he described it. VERY possible fire danger but for 18 bucks I replaced the switch and everythings fine. I feel real fortunate that someone was able to witness this cuz I never would have and would hate to see my GW go up in flames because of a 20 dollar part Just an FYI. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer w/ Recent Rebuild (Cuz of blocked cat back pressure and head gasket blow up) New Cat New Radiator New Starter New Headliner New Shocks (Monroe's) Does it ever end????????????? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 22:52:00 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Something (Else) to look for ....FYI A: I'd go back to the store, and scoop your old starter back. I bet nothing is wrong with it (should done an amp draw test like I suggested! You would have seen it then! The cables are probably shot too) Rob wrote: I've been dealing with "warm" starting problems lately and narrowed it down to the starter. You guy's were right on about the "missing" bolt, it was on the tranny side - what an ignoramus I was. Anyway, I took the starter "core" back for a refund and as I was leaving had similar warm starting probelems. To make a long story short, someone offered to help me test the battery under load and as he looked at the battery and I started the engine he waved his hands wildly. The starter "relay" or switch was shooting lightning, as he described it. VERY possible fire danger but for 18 bucks I replaced the switch and everythings fine. I feel real fortunate that someone was able to witness this cuz I never would have and would hate to see my GW go up in flames because of a 20 dollar part Just an FYI. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer w/ Recent Rebuild (Cuz of blocked cat back pressure and head gasket blow up) New Cat New Radiator New Starter New Headliner New Shocks (Monroe's) Does it ever end????????????? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:13:19 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: It's alive! alive! At 09:08 PM 2/5/00 -0800, Jeep Wagoneer wrote: >Tonight we fired up my rebuilt engine!! Yes!! It runs! congrats!!! I can hardly wait to finish the body lift and the TBI setup... (I'm making sure it's running and useable since the little wagoneer is having some problems... bearings... and the J10 is my ONLY working rig right now... scarey thought, a FSJ as a sole source of transportation! I have confidence in that 4.2L straight 6... :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:06:35 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: slight problem... RE: stepside 2" BODY lift on bed Seems that one fuel line, possibly the main one to the pump, got stretched a bit. Gave up on the cab bolts and went over to a friends house to help install a gate... noticed gas smell... :( loosened the one clamp and thought I'd fixed it... until I got home and it was leaking again... so I pryed off the original clamp and put on a new hose clamp... problem is I think the hose is bad... Not a serious problem, so long as no one throws a match my way. :) I'll be replacing the hose when I do the TBI anyway. later, john - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/J10s/johns-83-Stepside/ http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/J10s/marks-67-J3000/ (son's FSJ) http://wagoneers.com/john/JEEP/Vehicle-History.html http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:08:36 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Something (Else) to look for ....FYI >Rob wrote: >Does it ever end????????????? no. :) it doesn't... the trick is to balance the love of the FSJ with the hassles. That's why I decided on a 6 cylinder J10. I eliminated most of the hassles. Now I'm inducing my own. ;) john - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/J10s/johns-83-Stepside/ http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/J10s/marks-67-J3000/ (son's FSJ) http://wagoneers.com/john/JEEP/Vehicle-History.html http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:15:52 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Gladiator info and pics wanted Thomas, let me know what you need pictures of. I have a digital camera and two "Gladiators". :) My son has a 67 J3000 and I have an 83 J10 Stepside. BTW, what language is your native tongue? =20 john-at-wagoneers.com At 08:30 PM 2/5/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >Email direct, because he isn't on this list > >FWD:=A0=A0 Message From: knirps-at-voyager.co.nz (Thomas=A0Nowacki)=20 >Hi James,=20 >Sorry about my reaction on languages, but the translation-programs can >offer you mostly a very poor and Oxford-style English. They are good as >an dictionary, but not to write letters. But enough about languages, if >anybody on the list wont understand me, he should ask what I mean. >Thanks for your great tip "wagoneers.com". I'll be busy the next couple >of days to select all the pics. One of the worthfull series is Berts >restauration.=20 >And to answer your question: I'll need detail-pics from all points and >corners about the Gladiators pre-1970 to assamble mine. I bourght it 80 >percent disassambled and I havn't an example to look for the details. >Details mean - switch positions, component positions, trimming details >and so on.=20 >Thanks=20 >Knirps > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:36:29 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:56:47 -0600 roger wilco, over and out. ;) going 10-10 on the side, (probably my right side... ;) john At 10:03 PM 2/5/00 -0500, TLynn wrote: >New lister....is this thing working? > >Tim Lynn >"ToolMan-JeepBum" >"It's a Jeep Thing" >ICQ 21916084 >75' J-10(in restoration-unnamed) >96' XJ(Skinny) >74' Wag(parts) >77' J-10(Bull-Dawg) 401/TH400, QT, 4" lift, MSD6T & billet dist., 32x11.5 >AT's, >tlynn-at-sheltonbbs.com > > > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 00:09:04 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:56:47 -0600 Just a little quieter than the other list! (That's why this is in regular, and the other was digest, now indigestible format) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 06:47:22 -0700 From: "Berry, Bradley A" Subject: fsj: To: "'fsj-at-digest.net'" I seem to have gotten carried away here, but it sure beats work!!! Well, I finally bit the bullet, and went out and put some new tires on the Jeep. She's now wearing 31x10.5 LTXs. Not exactly the best off road tire, but probably the best choice to get me back and forth from work in Florida's rainstorms and still have the confidence to hit the dirt. They appear to fit fine up front, but look awful tight in the back. I hope Old Man EMU has started making springs for GWs! Do the soft-ride springs actually live up to their name? I'd use them, but I need clearance and ride quality much more than lift. I might need to put 1" blocks in the back until I do something. Anyway... The shop pointed out that I needed a brake job, immediately, because I was scraping the rotors. I found it hard to believe that I could let my brakes get to that condition without noticing, but I decided that as I've been busy doing everything else in my life, I'd better check. Well, all I had to do was pull the drivers wheel, and it became obvious that I haven't been paying attention. In fact, it made me stop and think that the only thing that I've done to the Jeep in the last two years was a complete fluids change. So, despite the fact that I needed to be to work at 6 this morning, I started pulling the Jeep apart last night. It turned out that the reason John got his work done this weekend, was because Murphy was with me. I decided to start with a new alternator, as I'd been planning on replacing mine since I bought the Jeep. It had a habit of just deciding not to work every so often. The voltmeter would sit at the bottom of the scale for a couple of minutes after start up, and the alternator would make all kinds of whirring noises, and then it would remember it's job, and go back to work. It would only do this about once every three months, but after 2 years, even someone as dense as me can get the point that one day, it will totally succumb to Alzheimer's. Of course the replacement had the wrong pulley, but thankfully I started on the brakes before I headed to the store to swap pulleys and cores, so I found out that I also needed a hex wrench for the calipers. (#%-at- internal bolts!) With the alternator swapped, I went to yank the rotors for a refinish. I popped the caps off of the hub, and pulled the drive gears, only to find that the bearing retainers didn't look anything like what I'm used to. Hmmm... I bet that those nuts use one of those funky 2"+\- diameter sockets with the tabs on the end to unlock them. So $15 and another wasted half hour later, it's pretty much too late to get the rotors turned tonight. So upon closer inspection, 1 side of each rotor has some light scoring. Way past the catch a fingernail stage, but I'd guess the rivets had scraped 1/32" into the rotor face. (1 1/4" wide groove only) I put the pads on and kept going. ***** So the first question is, should I yank the rotors back off and turn them, or is this going to be acceptable as is? ***** I went to bleed the brakes for good measure, and learned an important lesson. It is important to do things in the proper order. Do not start bleeding your brakes before you install BOTH calipers. I wondered where the brake fluid was going! Anyway, I also learned that my bleed screws were packed solid with rust. I cleaned them out and was able to bleed out most of the nasty fluid, but it didn't leave me with a warm fuzzy. as it was fast approaching midnight, I didn't try to pull out the dust boot of the caliper whose piston I'd spit half way out, but just slid the piston back in, installed that caliper, and bled it some as well. So onto the next question. ***** Given that I have nasty brake fluid, and bleed screws packed with rust, I'm worried about the calipers. But they don't leak, (At least they didn't until I worked on them :-) they don't pull, they wore evenly, and I never had any reason to think there is a problem. Is there any reason I NEED to pull these and replace/clean them? ***** I did plan to at least repack the bearings, but when I checked my manual for instructions, it had useful statements like "remove the rotor." OK, how? There's some kind of spring, and spring retainer, around the bearing retainers which appear to have an inner and outer nut. Unless I'm looking in the 88 factory manual in the wrong place, the instructions are pretty bad. There's a diagram in the "Front Axle" section, and some torque specs under "Steering" but it's still pretty vague. So I left that alone as well. By this time it had become painfully obvious to me that I haven't been taking good care of my baby. So... ***** Is there anything I need to be aware of to pull these rotors and get to the bearings? If I pull the bearing retaining nuts, with the rotor just slide off? Do I use standard axle bearing grease? Should my hubs smell like axle fluid? (Yikes!) Is there any trick to reinstalling the assembly? Do I really torque the inner bearing nut to 50 ft-lbs and back it off 1/6 of a turn, and then torque the outer bearing nut to 50 ft-lbs? If so, wouldn't it just turn the inner nut back in? ***** I think all of these items probably should be done, but I really don't have a lot of time to do it, so I'm leaning towards just repacking the bearings, turning the rotors based on recommendations here, and then just bleeding all of the fluid out and replacing it. My other obvious problem I've had with this Jeep has been a steering fluid leak. I swear that this car generates that fluid, as it seems to make stains faster than it goes down in the reservoir. Anyway, I searched all over the pump for a leak, and unfortunately, the pump and hoses are perfectly dry, but the same can't be said for the box. As it is soaked from the top to bottom, I'm assuming that the seal at the top/back where it connects to the steering column is shot. I didn't have time to really inspect it, but it looks like the column will unbolt. So the last ( I promise) question is: ***** What is involved in fixing the seals in the steering box? Is this a simple unbolt the column and replace the top seal job, or is it such a pain that I should consider just mounting another box? ***** If you've suffered through all of this, and actually have some suggestions, Thanks! Brad Berry 88 GW ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #714 *************************