From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Feb 6 21:54:41 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, February 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 715 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: bed lifted... Re: fsj: It's alive! alive! (long) fsj: RE: To: "'fsj-at-digest.net'" fsj: faith tested Re: fsj: bed lifted... Re: fsj: faith tested Re: fsj: RE: To: "'fsj-at-digest.net'" Re: fsj: faith tested fsj: OK, I'm starting to get p*ssed. fsj: Re: Berry, Bradley- Brakes FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:40:22 From: Saltsgavers Subject: Re: fsj: bed lifted... I guess I've been on the road too much to have followed the project. If your lifting the body 2 inches, does that mean your still within the acceptable range of movement of the steering linkage between the column & box, or does this mean something has to be tweaked? Flatlander novice, Mike S. At 05:02 PM 2/5/00 -0800, john wrote: >so far, so good... the stepside bed is now 2" higher............. >john ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:47:24 From: Saltsgavers Subject: Re: fsj: It's alive! alive! (long) One thing to think about......whenever I rebuild an engine & put it thru it's initial trial runs, I change the spark plugs. Even thou you just put new ones in, they have been exposed to break in oil, blow by from the rings setting, & questionable gas mixtures as you tweak in the carb. Dont risk the mental stress of trouble shooting a rough running new engine that may only be a partially fouled plug. Mike S. At 09:08 PM 2/5/00 -0800, Jeep Wagoneer wrote: >Tonight we fired up my rebuilt engine!! Yes!! It runs! > >After we changed the starter and starter solenoid and >then tracked down a wiring problem that I introduced, >it started right up. Once it was running we oscillated >the engine speed around 2000 RPM for about 20 minutes.............. >John Jacobs - jeep_wag_75-at-yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:46:46 -0700 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: To: "'fsj-at-digest.net'" Ok, Lets start with the brakes. It is not terribly unusual to have the bleeders plugged up with crap if you do not still have the original rubber caps that cover them, and as for the calipers if you have even brake wear (both side to side, and inside to outside) and you have not been experiencing any pulling then they are most likely just fine. The only concern I would have is how far out did you accidentally push the piston? If it went past the seal and was cocked at an angle then you might have cut the seal o-ring and it might begin leaking. In the future, you can get line clamps that are specifically designed to clamp the brake hoses to prevent pushing pistons out (front and rear) while you are working on the brake system, they are about $8.00 each (you would need 3 if you are going to do all the brakes at the same time). If you spend any less than that, then you will be getting the cheap ones that can damage the brake hoses. Such as if you use 'vice grips' you can damage the hose internally in such a way that the hoses act like check valves and hold pressure on the calipers or wheel cylendars. As for the rotors, if they are actually scored that badly, then you might as well just wear out the pads you have on there now before you do anything with them because you will likely have to replace the rotors. After they are turned they might be below the minimum thickness spec (which is in place for purposes of making sure you have enough mass to dissipate the heat). As for the steering gear box, you probably have a leak at the pitman seal (bottom), and mayby the rear and lid seals as well. You should be able to rebuild the gear box if you have the correct tools, and particularly an inch-pound torque wrench for reassembly. You might find when you get it apart the the worm gear is badly worn, then in that case it might be cheaper to replace the gear box rather than replace the worn parts. As for the springs and clearance issue, you cannot gain clearance without adding lift. I don't know if the Old Man EMU springs are available for a Wagon or not, but my experience has been that if you add any lift at all, you are going to stiffen the ride at least a little bit. You will need a special 'wrench' that looks more like a very large socket made out of sheet metal to remove the hub nuts. Also, you do need to pre-load the bearings while re-installing. This is done by tourqing the nut to the specified tightness, loosening it, then tightening it to 'hand tightness'. This is standard for any type of preloaded wheel bearing. Hope this helps out a bit. JC Jones :) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Berry, Bradley A Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 6:47 AM Subject: fsj: To: "'fsj-at-digest.net'" I seem to have gotten carried away here, but it sure beats work!!! Well, I finally bit the bullet, and went out and put some new tires on the Jeep. She's now wearing 31x10.5 LTXs. Not exactly the best off road tire, but probably the best choice to get me back and forth from work in Florida's rainstorms and still have the confidence to hit the dirt. They appear to fit fine up front, but look awful tight in the back. I hope Old Man EMU has started making springs for GWs! Do the soft-ride springs actually live up to their name? I'd use them, but I need clearance and ride quality much more than lift. I might need to put 1" blocks in the back until I do something. Anyway... The shop pointed out that I needed a brake job, immediately, because I was scraping the rotors. I found it hard to believe that I could let my brakes get to that condition without noticing, but I decided that as I've been busy doing everything else in my life, I'd better check. Well, all I had to do was pull the drivers wheel, and it became obvious that I haven't been paying attention. In fact, it made me stop and think that the only thing that I've done to the Jeep in the last two years was a complete fluids change. So, despite the fact that I needed to be to work at 6 this morning, I started pulling the Jeep apart last night. It turned out that the reason John got his work done this weekend, was because Murphy was with me. I decided to start with a new alternator, as I'd been planning on replacing mine since I bought the Jeep. It had a habit of just deciding not to work every so often. The voltmeter would sit at the bottom of the scale for a couple of minutes after start up, and the alternator would make all kinds of whirring noises, and then it would remember it's job, and go back to work. It would only do this about once every three months, but after 2 years, even someone as dense as me can get the point that one day, it will totally succumb to Alzheimer's. Of course the replacement had the wrong pulley, but thankfully I started on the brakes before I headed to the store to swap pulleys and cores, so I found out that I also needed a hex wrench for the calipers. (#%-at- internal bolts!) With the alternator swapped, I went to yank the rotors for a refinish. I popped the caps off of the hub, and pulled the drive gears, only to find that the bearing retainers didn't look anything like what I'm used to. Hmmm... I bet that those nuts use one of those funky 2"+\- diameter sockets with the tabs on the end to unlock them. So $15 and another wasted half hour later, it's pretty much too late to get the rotors turned tonight. So upon closer inspection, 1 side of each rotor has some light scoring. Way past the catch a fingernail stage, but I'd guess the rivets had scraped 1/32" into the rotor face. (1 1/4" wide groove only) I put the pads on and kept going. ***** So the first question is, should I yank the rotors back off and turn them, or is this going to be acceptable as is? ***** I went to bleed the brakes for good measure, and learned an important lesson. It is important to do things in the proper order. Do not start bleeding your brakes before you install BOTH calipers. I wondered where the brake fluid was going! Anyway, I also learned that my bleed screws were packed solid with rust. I cleaned them out and was able to bleed out most of the nasty fluid, but it didn't leave me with a warm fuzzy. as it was fast approaching midnight, I didn't try to pull out the dust boot of the caliper whose piston I'd spit half way out, but just slid the piston back in, installed that caliper, and bled it some as well. So onto the next question. ***** Given that I have nasty brake fluid, and bleed screws packed with rust, I'm worried about the calipers. But they don't leak, (At least they didn't until I worked on them :-) they don't pull, they wore evenly, and I never had any reason to think there is a problem. Is there any reason I NEED to pull these and replace/clean them? ***** I did plan to at least repack the bearings, but when I checked my manual for instructions, it had useful statements like "remove the rotor." OK, how? There's some kind of spring, and spring retainer, around the bearing retainers which appear to have an inner and outer nut. Unless I'm looking in the 88 factory manual in the wrong place, the instructions are pretty bad. There's a diagram in the "Front Axle" section, and some torque specs under "Steering" but it's still pretty vague. So I left that alone as well. By this time it had become painfully obvious to me that I haven't been taking good care of my baby. So... ***** Is there anything I need to be aware of to pull these rotors and get to the bearings? If I pull the bearing retaining nuts, with the rotor just slide off? Do I use standard axle bearing grease? Should my hubs smell like axle fluid? (Yikes!) Is there any trick to reinstalling the assembly? Do I really torque the inner bearing nut to 50 ft-lbs and back it off 1/6 of a turn, and then torque the outer bearing nut to 50 ft-lbs? If so, wouldn't it just turn the inner nut back in? ***** I think all of these items probably should be done, but I really don't have a lot of time to do it, so I'm leaning towards just repacking the bearings, turning the rotors based on recommendations here, and then just bleeding all of the fluid out and replacing it. My other obvious problem I've had with this Jeep has been a steering fluid leak. I swear that this car generates that fluid, as it seems to make stains faster than it goes down in the reservoir. Anyway, I searched all over the pump for a leak, and unfortunately, the pump and hoses are perfectly dry, but the same can't be said for the box. As it is soaked from the top to bottom, I'm assuming that the seal at the top/back where it connects to the steering column is shot. I didn't have time to really inspect it, but it looks like the column will unbolt. So the last ( I promise) question is: ***** What is involved in fixing the seals in the steering box? Is this a simple unbolt the column and replace the top seal job, or is it such a pain that I should consider just mounting another box? ***** If you've suffered through all of this, and actually have some suggestions, Thanks! Brad Berry 88 GW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 10:15:40 From: Saltsgavers Subject: fsj: faith tested Since my truck's tranny has decided to lay down on me, I've been driving the wagoneer (which hadn't been driven in 3 months). The back window has been up & down 3 dozen times over the last few days (we're finally getting the move to the new house in gear). Last night I went to an auction house located about 45 minutes from home. Bought some odds & ends type junk (another old sterio w/ 8 track just so I could scrouge the needle from the phonograph). Had the window up & down 3 times during the evening, loading the treasures during the sale. When it finally got time to come home & I loaded the last items, the window wouldn't go back up. I piddled with it for over 30 minutes, even trying to run artifial 12 volts to it from a buddies car (using jumper cables & wire to inject voltage to the main wire & grounding the "up" wire). Finally resigned myself to driving home in below 20 degree weather with the window down. I had only driven about 4 blocks (still working the switch all the while) when it decided to go up. This must be some type of test the FSJ gods are putting me thru. MIke S. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:34:17 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: bed lifted... yep, there is enough slack in the steering column to take it up. the column can slide down a bit. I'm gonna have a shop do the rest to make sure. :) If you go more than 2" that's when you get into lowering columns and extending stuff... john At 09:40 AM 2/6/00, you wrote: >I guess I've been on the road too much to have followed the project. If >your lifting the body 2 inches, does that mean your still within the >acceptable range of movement of the steering linkage between the column & >box, or does this mean something has to be tweaked? > >Flatlander novice, >Mike S. > >At 05:02 PM 2/5/00 -0800, john wrote: >>so far, so good... the stepside bed is now 2" higher............. > >>john > > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:20:58 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: faith tested A: I guess you didn't try the slap the tailgat on the left side trick did you? Mike wrote: Since my truck's tranny has decided to lay down on me, I've been driving the wagoneer (which hadn't been driven in 3 months). The back window has been up & down 3 dozen times over the last few days (we're finally getting the move to the new house in gear). Last night I went to an auction house located about 45 minutes from home. Bought some odds & ends type junk (another old sterio w/ 8 track just so I could scrouge the needle from the phonograph). Had the window up & down 3 times during the evening, loading the treasures during the sale. When it finally got time to come home & I loaded the last items, the window wouldn't go back up. I piddled with it for over 30 minutes, even trying to run artifial 12 volts to it from a buddies car (using jumper cables & wire to inject voltage to the main wire & grounding the "up" wire). Finally resigned myself to driving home in below 20 degree weather with the window down. I had only driven about 4 blocks (still working the switch all the while) when it decided to go up. This must be some type of test the FSJ gods are putting me thru. MIke S. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:55:29 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: RE: To: "'fsj-at-digest.net'" A: JC gave you most of the stuff, and I'll add a bit here and there. Berry, Bradley wrote: >I seem to have gotten carried away here, but it sure beats work!!! Well, I finally bit the bullet, and went out and put some new tires on the Jeep. She's now wearing 31x10.5 LTXs. (snip) >I hope Old Man EMU has started making springs for GWs! Do the soft-ride springs actually live up to their name? I'd use them, but I need clearance and ride quality much more than lift. I might need to put 1" blocks in the back until I do something. A: You could put in a block, or get the main leaf from an old GW set (and 2 new aligning bolts) and cut the eyes off, and put it in #2 position. That will give you lift, and will stiffen the ride only a little. >Anyway... The shop pointed out that I needed a brake job, immediately, because I was scraping the rotors. (snip) >weekend, was because Murphy was with me. I decided to start with a new alternator, as I'd been planning on replacing mine since I bought the Jeep. It had a habit of just deciding not to work every so often. The voltmeter would sit at the bottom of the scale for a couple of minutes after start up, and the alternator would make all kinds of whirring noises, and then it would remember it's job, and go back to work. A: That usually means bad brushes on the Delco units. Got a mitsu on yours? >It would only do this about once every three months, but after 2 years, even someone as dense as me can get the point that one day, it will totally succumb to Alzheimer's. Of course the replacement had the wrong pulley, but thankfully I started on the brakes before I headed to the store to swap pulleys and cores, so I found out that I also needed a hex wrench for the calipers. (#%-at- internal bolts!) (snip) >So upon closer inspection, 1 side of each rotor has some light scoring. Way past the catch a fingernail stage, but I'd guess the rivets had scraped 1/32" into the rotor face. (1 1/4" wide groove only) I put the pads on and kept going. ***** So the first question is, should I yank the rotors back off and turn them, or is this going to be acceptable as is? ***** A: I just threw pads on mine when they were like that a year ago. One side disintegrated after a panic stop (driver ran the red light across in front of me, going so fast that he was airborn 1/2 way across the intersection) and since I'm changing axles, I threw another used set on. >I went to bleed the brakes for good measure, and learned an important lesson. It is important to do things in the proper order. Do not start bleeding your brakes before you install BOTH calipers. I wondered where the brake fluid was going! Anyway, I also learned that my bleed screws were packed solid with rust. I cleaned them out and was able to bleed out most of the nasty fluid, but it didn't leave me with a warm fuzzy. as it was fast approaching midnight, I didn't try to pull out the dust boot of the caliper whose piston I'd spit half way out, but just slid the piston back in, installed that caliper, and bled it some as well. So onto the next question. ***** Given that I have nasty brake fluid, and bleed screws packed with rust, I'm worried about the calipers. But they don't leak, (At least they didn't until I worked on them :-) they don't pull, they wore evenly, and I never had any reason to think there is a problem. Is there any reason I NEED to pull these and replace/clean them? ***** A: The calipers don't get rust from the bleeders into them (unless they are open while bleeding on the upstroke and suck stuff in!) If they closed fairly easy, and don't have any leaks, they should be okay for now. >I did plan to at least repack the bearings, but when I checked my manual for instructions, it had useful statements like "remove the rotor." OK, how? There's some kind of spring, and spring retainer, around the bearing retainers which appear to have an inner and outer nut. Unless I'm looking in the 88 factory manual in the wrong place, the instructions are pretty bad. There's a diagram in the "Front Axle" section, and some torque specs under "Steering" but it's still pretty vague. So I left that alone as well. By this time it had become painfully obvious to me that I haven't been taking good care of my baby. So... ***** Is there anything I need to be aware of to pull these rotors and get to the bearings? If I pull the bearing retaining nuts, with the rotor just slide off? Do I use standard axle bearing grease? Should my hubs smell like axle fluid? (Yikes!) Is there any trick to reinstalling the assembly? Do I really torque the inner bearing nut to 50 ft-lbs and back it off 1/6 of a turn, and then torque the outer bearing nut to 50 ft-lbs? If so, wouldn't it just turn the inner nut back in? ***** A: There is a washer between with a notch into the hub that keeps them from spinning each other. I thought it was 50 inch pounds? (which is a little over 4 foot pounds) >I think all of these items probably should be done, but I really don't have a lot of time to do it, so I'm leaning towards just repacking the bearings, turning the rotors based on recommendations here, and then just bleeding all of the fluid out and replacing it. A: New rotors are $85 each here for my '83 (My book stops at '79) >My other obvious problem I've had with this Jeep has been a steering fluid leak. I swear that this car generates that fluid, as it seems to make stains faster than it goes down in the reservoir. Anyway, I searched all over the pump for a leak, and unfortunately, the pump and hoses are perfectly dry, but the same can't be said for the box. As it is soaked from the top to bottom, I'm assuming that the seal at the top/back where it connects to the steering column is shot. I didn't have time to really inspect it, but it looks like the column will unbolt. So the last ( I promise) question is: ***** What is involved in fixing the seals in the steering box? Is this a simple unbolt the column and replace the top seal job, or is it such a pain that I should consider just mounting another box? ***** A: If you can get another box quick, slap it in, otherwise they are expen$ive for rebuilts. I usually have a spare on hand, and put new seals in before swapping. (haven't had to do that a lot though. I've been pretty lucky so far. Knock on wood {thonk thonk on my head}) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 19:24:16 From: Saltsgavers Subject: Re: fsj: faith tested I've been thru the tailgate before. I'd already cut out the safety switch circuit, & I was too lazy to re-connect the defroster. I just didn't have enough light or tools (voltmeter) last night to get the job done. I was just lucky that a bump fixed it, or it would have been a chilly ride home. MIke S. The mechanizms & guides are in decent shape too. I figure it's a intermittant power connection that will require some attention whenever I can get around to it. At 10:20 AM 2/6/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: I guess you didn't try the slap the tailgat on the left side trick >did you? > >Mike wrote: >Since my truck's tranny has decided to lay down on me, I've been driving >the wagoneer (which hadn't been driven in 3 months). The back window has >been up & down 3 dozen times over the last few days (we're finally >getting the move to the new house in gear). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:39:17 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: OK, I'm starting to get p*ssed. I've been having warm starting problems, I mean nothing at start up when warm. I replaced the starter thaen found that the starter motor was a lil nuclear shell waiting to ignite any gas fumes and after replacing that I'm still having abit of trouble. After all has been replaced, The ammometer goes way right when I can get it started - sounds as if the battery was dying (But its not). What's next on the list? Is it the Alternater? This is driving me batty and I can't afford emotionally to deal with these constant problems!! I have rebuilt the engine (Twice now), replaced the cat, replaced the starter, replaced the starter switch and it still doesn't end - It's like my marriage right now. Whew, sorry for the rant but I'm getting drained. can any one help? Also, if any one can guess, i'm hearing a "chick,Chick,chick" when I drive. It's gotta be in the axles cuz I fixed the brakes not too long ago. Bearings maybe? Sorry for the ranting guys and gals, I'm going through a lot of *shit right now and really need my SJ to work for me. Let me know where I should start (again) with my rig. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 03:33:59 GMT From: Robert Barry Subject: fsj: Re: Berry, Bradley- Brakes >So the first question is, should I yank the rotors back off and turn them, >or is this going to be acceptable as is? If they're scored, get them cut (IMHO). They'll work with the grooves (my GW is that way now), but it's not optimal. I'll be replacing the rotor and the pads as soon as I get the opportunity. >Given that I have nasty brake fluid, and bleed screws packed with rust, I'm >worried about the calipers. But they don't leak, (At least they didn't >until I worked on them :-) they don't pull, they wore evenly, and I never >had any reason to think there is a problem. Is there any reason I NEED to >pull these and replace/clean them? They are $13/each at Autozone. They're not going to get any better, and they can freeze up slowly, so even though they may work now, they can be freezing up as we speak and lock up at the least-convenient moment. If you've already got them unbolted, and are changing the pads, you may as well replace them. ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #715 *************************