From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Feb 9 16:19:16 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, February 9 2000 Volume 01 : Number 718 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: driveshaft vibes and phasing fsj: TOOLS Re: fsj: TOOLS Re: fsj: TOOLS fsj: R12 AC equipment for sale fsj: driveshaft vibes and phasing fsj: tailgate woes fsj: TBI not gonna work... fsj: rim update Re: fsj: TBI not gonna work... fsj: Replacing tumblers in door-lock cylinder? fsj: Re: [1FSJ] tapping, from engine Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] tapping, from engine Re: fsj: Replacing tumblers in door-lock cylinder? Re: fsj: TBI not gonna work... Re: fsj: TBI not gonna work... fsj: progress... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:57:19 EST From: OrigamiTB-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: driveshaft vibes and phasing In a message dated 2/8/00 9:29:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, JimBlair wrote: > One piece SYDs don't matter, because they can go together only one way > (well, 2 if you count removing the front Ujoint from the slip yoke). > FYD is a different story. If you split them in the middle, they have to go > together mirror imaged Ujoints, or the vibration will rattle the teeth > from your head! Hmmm... I wonder whether that could be why my '73 Wag has a persistent vibe that's worst at just above 30mph and gets less severe at higher speeds. The rear DS was shot when I bought it, and the vibe was worse after I had it rebuilt than before. I'll have a crawl underneath today and take a look... ++ Cornel "bad vibes" Ormsby ++ not leaving Las Vegas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:02:44 -0500 From: "Borowski, Paul" Subject: fsj: TOOLS Need to get a timing light and tachometer to tune my red beast(88 Grand Wagoner), any recommendations on what and where to get them? Thanks Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:52:16 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: TOOLS At 06:02 PM 2/8/00 -0500, Borowski, Paul wrote: >Need to get a timing light and tachometer to tune my red beast(88 Grand >Wagoner), any recommendations on what and where to get them? > >Thanks >Paul buying the cheapest isn't always the best. Craftsman stuff is usually pretty good. I don't even know what brand of timing light I've got, it's a pretty decent one, inductive pickup. Spend a little more for quality... I've learned the hard way about "saving" money. ;) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:04:52 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: TOOLS A: Can't help you with a timing light, but I have a couple dwell/tachs kicking around yet. (Sears, Schucks and others sell the lights still AFAIK) Paul Borowski wrote: Need to get a timing light and tachometer to tune my red beast(88 Grand Wagoner), any recommendations on what and where to get them? Thanks Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:32:02 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: R12 AC equipment for sale Al, I don't know who might be interested, but I'll forward the info on the R12 AC equipment to the FSJ, XJ and DieselBenz list. NOTE: please respond directly to Al Wong at alwong-at-asaaw.com thanx! (see below.) I'm still kicking myself that I didn't buy that large cylinder of R12 at Costco before they restricted it... I've had a few pounds of R12 given to me by friends, so I'm fixed up on my Jeeps. I sold my 300D a while back, but it had been converted quite nicely to R134. Sorry to hear about your terminally ill Benz... ttyl, john At 08:09 PM 2/8/00 -0500, Al Wong wrote: >Thanks John! > >Use to have a 83 300SD turbo, finally gave it up after it was diagnosed >with terminal illness. > >Do you know if any of the guys on the news group do AC work? The MB was >the last car I have that was r12, and now that it is gone, I'm selling >my ac svc equipment. > >Here is what I have to sell and their asking price. I purchased all but >the ge pump NEW less than 2 summers ago, and have serivced maybe 10 cars >only. All the equipment still looks brand new, no signs of wear and >tear (just a bit dirty), ge pump shows some wear and tear. > > >Robinair r12/R134 leak detector $150.00 >Timco Recycle/Recovery unit $600.00 >EPA certified/approved recovery tank $120.00 >R12 gauge set $35.00 >GE Vacuum pump $100.00 > >Will sell individually or as a set. Set price for all components: >$950.00 > >Thanks, >Al Wong - ---------------------------------------------------- ************************************************ >Al Wong alwong-at-asaaw.com - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:32:20 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: driveshaft vibes and phasing john writes: >> In theory if the driveshaft is balanced correctly it shouldn't matter which way the driveshaft is phased. Although I've heard this advice befo= re and would love to hear others input and comments on it. I know it is an= issue, but I haven't seen it as a problem on any of my rigs. = It is in fact in several shop manuals!!! One of the first steps is to mark the yoke and the driveshaft with chalk or paint! Has anyone experienced a vibe because they didn't phase it? << This applies to a FSJ rear driveshaft...two u-joints, one on each end. With any operating angle through a single u-joint, it operates in an elliptical pattern which imparts a vibration because the u-joint speeds-u= p, slows-down, speeds-up, etc. The size of the elliptical pattern increases = as the operating angle of the u-joint increases. The vib. frequency increase= s with driveline speed increase. Now install another u-joint operating at the same angle (it's really a complimentary angle...more in a minute) as the 1st u-joint, but 180 degrees out of phase. Meaning when u-joint #1 is increasing in speed, u-joint #2 is at the same time decreasing in speed. The two will cancel each other out. This is the reason why it is important that the two u-joints operate at the same compound angles. I said complimentary angle because the front u-joint operates at a down angle while the rear u-joint operates at an up angle. The reason why the trunnions themselves are not physically out of phase with each other when= you look at a driveline. If one end is operating at 7 degrees down, then the other end needs to be at or very near 7 degrees up. The front drive shafts, since they have the double-cardan, have three u-joints. The two u-joints in the double-cardan joint are phased to= cancel each others vibes out. That means the front third u-joint needs to= operate at zero or very near zero degrees. This is all statically of course. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 08-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 19:51:54 From: Saltsgavers Subject: fsj: tailgate woes Had time to crawl under the wag tonight long enough to see that I've got 12 volts going into the tailgate. After the thing went up while driving home, it hasn't worked since. Paid some attention to how the rear switch "felt". Clock wise doesn't feel as good as counterclockwise (especially compared against the switch in the '84). Something tells me I'm looking at pulling the cover off again.......arrrgggghhhhh. Still puzzled why the gods of tailgates allowed the window to go up the other night, saving me from a freezing drive home. I must have been a good boy lately. Mike S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:47:31 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: TBI not gonna work... I emailed Holley. They said stock manifold. I talked to a speed shop, I could make my own adapter... he also mentioned someone was building a 258. So I think I've got it sold for what I paid for it. phew... john - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/83stepside/ http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Jx000s/marks-67-J3000/ (son's FSJ) http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:49:47 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: rim update I took my J10 back to Discount tires and got my Michelins mounted on the stock alloys (slotted discs). WHen they balanced the tires they used tape weights inside... oops. I'd forgotten that doesn't always work... I got almost back to work and noticed a sound similar to a card in bicycle spokes... I pulled a u -e (how do you spell the slang version of a u-turn??? ;) and headed back... they rebalanced and put the weights closer to the center to avoid the caliper. I went through this with Old blue too... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:34:30 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: TBI not gonna work... A: I have a spare stock manifold (aluminum) if that's what it takes. Whatcha want for it? John wrote: I emailed Holley. They said stock manifold. I talked to a speed shop, I could make my own adapter... he also mentioned someone was building a 258. So I think I've got it sold for what I paid for it. phew... john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 03:44:26 GMT From: Robert Barry Subject: fsj: Replacing tumblers in door-lock cylinder? Here's the situation. One of the door-lock cylinders on my '78 Cherokee is flaky, falling-apart, etc.. I've got another better cylinder from another truck into which the key fits, but which obviously uses different tumblers. How do I disassemble these things to transfer the tumblers from the bad cylinder to the good one? AFAICT, the only way anything is coming out of there is by prying off the round stainless cap on the outside. Is there some secret I'm missing? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 22:48:22 -0600 From: poolcues-at-bellsouth.net Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] tapping, from engine I am not sure it is loud when the hood is down, and more noticeable when it's a idle. I had a guy look at it, and told me it was threes hours of labor, to take the California emission stuff off to get to the spot, , coming from under the valve cover. It has plenty of power, , if a push rod or rocker are was bad , would not the power be affected? If it is a rocker or push rod.. how hard is it to fix myself ? I don't have one of the special do hickeys for the springs on the rockers, just the basic stuff. I do however have a 80 Factory manual, but it a little confusing. Does this kind of the just happen all of a sudden like? any the only thing the guy could say was to get a oil change. not a lot of help! Is there anybody in Huntsville or nearby that could help me? I would put this on the other list, but you know why I can't.. I will CC to John's list , for any possible help. Also , there is a loud clunk, off my right front tire every time I go in and out of a driveway, in a shopping center, is that a bad shock? Thanks! R.J. 80 J-10 Honcho Don Hansen wrote: > From: "Don Hansen" > > If it doesn't sound "too metallic" it might be a small exhaust leak. If > it sounds "more metallic" and makes you think, "Uh-oh..." it might be a > rocker arm: the pushrods like to work their way through them every so often. > You say the timing changed? Could be the timing chain slipped a cog?? > Ouch! > > --Don Hansen > Braintree, MA. USA > 1987 J-20 "Walter J." (Work) > 1988 GW "Edna" (Play) > 1990 GW "Max" (Hers) > fixxa-at-beld.net > One of the 5 Stooges/Moderators: > http://www.onelist.com/community/1FSJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: <1FSJ-at-onelist.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 12:13 AM > Subject: [1FSJ] tapping, from engine > > > From: poolcues-at-bellsouth.net > > > > Okay, the other day I was hitting the gas pedal a little hard , and the > engine > > went suddenly out of time.. well I had the valves tighten and replaced, > on the # > > 4, of the 360, ( in a 80 J-10 Honcho) that only has 15,000 on it. so I > pulled the > > plugs and sure enough ,one of the plugs was fouled, and some others looked > rough. > > So I got new plugs and replaced the rotor, ( the cap was fine ,and better > quality > > then the one I had bought) It sounded great and had a lot more power, But, > the I > > noticed a distinct tapping that , when you put in drive from park was a > little > > louder. I put it back in park, it goes up and down with the engine. > > Could it be valves , loosened? I was real careful trying to get the Jacob > ignition > > wires back on right, I think.. could that be it? > > > > Thanks .. > > R.J. > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > > > Want To Be Showered With Kisses? > > Visit eGroups Valentine Gift Guide > > Click Here > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Subscribe: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/1FSJ > > UnSubscribe: http://www.onelist.com/unsubscribe/1FSJ > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > Body Paint, Chocolates, & Roses Oh My. > Click Here > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subscribe: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/1FSJ > UnSubscribe: http://www.onelist.com/unsubscribe/1FSJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:40:19 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] tapping, from engine sounds very much like an exhaust leak. California emissions??? IT's got the same garbage that any other 360 has. What's he been smoking? ;) It's real easy to change out the rockers if they are bad, not likely. That's a fresh engine built with quality parts. Exhaust leak sounds most likely. What kind of oil are you using? Could be too thin for that Alabama heat ya know. :) john On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 poolcues-at-bellsouth.net wrote: >-->I am not sure it is loud when the hood is down, and more noticeable when it's a >-->idle. >-->I had a guy look at it, and told me it was threes hours of labor, to take the >-->California >-->emission stuff off to get to the spot, , coming from under the valve cover. It has >-->plenty of power, , if a push rod or rocker are was bad , would not the power be >-->affected? >-->If it is a rocker or push rod.. how hard is it to fix myself ? I don't have one of >-->the special do hickeys for the springs on the rockers, just the basic stuff. I do >-->however have a 80 Factory manual, but it a little confusing. Does this kind of the >-->just happen all of a sudden like? >-->any the only thing the guy could say was to get a oil change. >-->not a lot of help! >-->Is there anybody in Huntsville or nearby that could help me? >-->I would put this on the other list, but you know why I can't.. >-->I will CC to John's list , for any possible help. >-->Also , there is a loud clunk, off my right front tire every time I go in and out >-->of a driveway, in a shopping center, is that a bad shock? >-->Thanks! >--> >-->R.J. >--> >-->80 J-10 >-->Honcho >--> >-->Don Hansen wrote: >--> >-->> From: "Don Hansen" >-->> >-->> If it doesn't sound "too metallic" it might be a small exhaust leak. If >-->> it sounds "more metallic" and makes you think, "Uh-oh..." it might be a >-->> rocker arm: the pushrods like to work their way through them every so often. >-->> You say the timing changed? Could be the timing chain slipped a cog?? >-->> Ouch! >-->> >-->> --Don Hansen >-->> Braintree, MA. USA >-->> 1987 J-20 "Walter J." (Work) >-->> 1988 GW "Edna" (Play) >-->> 1990 GW "Max" (Hers) >-->> fixxa-at-beld.net >-->> One of the 5 Stooges/Moderators: >-->> http://www.onelist.com/community/1FSJ >-->> >-->> ----- Original Message ----- >-->> From: >-->> To: <1FSJ-at-onelist.com> >-->> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 12:13 AM >-->> Subject: [1FSJ] tapping, from engine >-->> >-->> > From: poolcues-at-bellsouth.net >-->> > >-->> > Okay, the other day I was hitting the gas pedal a little hard , and the >-->> engine >-->> > went suddenly out of time.. well I had the valves tighten and replaced, >-->> on the # >-->> > 4, of the 360, ( in a 80 J-10 Honcho) that only has 15,000 on it. so I >-->> pulled the >-->> > plugs and sure enough ,one of the plugs was fouled, and some others looked >-->> rough. >-->> > So I got new plugs and replaced the rotor, ( the cap was fine ,and better >-->> quality >-->> > then the one I had bought) It sounded great and had a lot more power, But, >-->> the I >-->> > noticed a distinct tapping that , when you put in drive from park was a >-->> little >-->> > louder. I put it back in park, it goes up and down with the engine. >-->> > Could it be valves , loosened? I was real careful trying to get the Jacob >-->> ignition >-->> > wires back on right, I think.. could that be it? >-->> > >-->> > Thanks .. >-->> > R.J. >-->> > >-->> > >-->> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- >-->> > >-->> > Want To Be Showered With Kisses? >-->> > Visit eGroups Valentine Gift Guide >-->> > Click Here >-->> > >-->> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-->> > >-->> > Subscribe: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/1FSJ >-->> > UnSubscribe: http://www.onelist.com/unsubscribe/1FSJ >-->> > >-->> > >-->> >-->> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- >-->> >-->> Body Paint, Chocolates, & Roses Oh My. >-->> Click Here >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-->> >-->> Subscribe: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/1FSJ >-->> UnSubscribe: http://www.onelist.com/unsubscribe/1FSJ >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:49:15 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Replacing tumblers in door-lock cylinder? On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Robert Barry wrote: >-->Here's the situation. One of the door-lock cylinders on my '78 Cherokee is >-->flaky, falling-apart, etc.. >--> >-->I've got another better cylinder from another truck into which the key fits, >-->but which obviously uses different tumblers. >--> >-->How do I disassemble these things to transfer the tumblers from the bad >-->cylinder to the good one? AFAICT, the only way anything is coming out of >-->there is by prying off the round stainless cap on the outside. Is there some >-->secret I'm missing? it's no secret... just take all the pieces to a locksmith and let him/her solve the riddle. It won't cost much and you won't be seen crawling around looking for little springs... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:59:45 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: TBI not gonna work... On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, James Blair wrote: >-->A: I have a spare stock manifold (aluminum) if that's what it takes. >-->Whatcha want for it? I've got it sold to a wrench at the Jeep dealer for what I paid, $360. any offers above that? :) going once, going twice... ;) Taking it over at lunch time tomorrow and the dealer will cut me a check. It's going on a CJ7 they're building up for somebody in Alaska, and they didn't want a carb. I'm just happy to get my money back without having to sell it. :) I ain't swappin' manifolds thank you... I am looking for a Clifford valve cover though... need to ditch the plastic silliness... I see what everyone has been talking about now. ;) I'm thinking of using my spare Motorcraft 2100... My mechanic seems to think they're better than the Holley. WE're not sure but the Holley is probably a 500CFM 2v... I'm gonna get rid of it... NOt sure what to ask for it, it starts good cold, and has plenty of power... It's just too much carb for my setup... john >--> >-->John wrote: >-->I emailed Holley. They said stock manifold. I talked to a speed shop, I ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:38:54 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: TBI not gonna work... A: Bit much for now :^( I'll have to wait and get the HO system later! :^) I wrote: I have a spare stock manifold (aluminum) if that's what it takes. Whatcha want for it? I've got it sold to a wrench at the Jeep dealer for what I paid, $360. any offers above that? :) going once, going twice... ;) Taking it over at lunch time tomorrow and the dealer will cut me a check. It's going on a CJ7 they're building up for somebody in Alaska, and they didn't want a carb. I'm just happy to get my money back without having to sell it. :) I ain't swappin' manifolds thank you... I am looking for a Clifford valve cover though... need to ditch the plastic silliness... I see what everyone has been talking about now. ;) I'm thinking of using my spare Motorcraft 2100... My mechanic seems to think they're better than the Holley. WE're not sure but the Holley is probably a 500CFM 2v... I'm gonna get rid of it... NOt sure what to ask for it, it starts good cold, and has plenty of power... It's just too much carb for my setup... john John wrote: I emailed Holley. They said stock manifold. I talked to a speed shop, I =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0---- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:06:45 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: progress... Things are going well in FSJ land. :) I figured out the TBI won't work, sold it basically on the same phone call. I found out that one of the carbs I got from Wes may work really well on my engine in place of the Holley. (the other one from Old Blue was given to RJ with the Honcho... I know that was a good one. :) This one is an older 2100, no altitude compensator. I'm gonna bring it over to Jim Startups, he actually had much nicer things to say about it than he did my current (or any other ) Holley. Jim also suggested an old AFB... Either way we're looking for a small carb for the 4.2L so it'll get decent mileage, but want to stay away from returning to the stock manifold setup... I think I just sold my electric door lock kit so I can get the 2dr version. Actually, I think I'm gonna go and have the alarm system and remote electric lock setup installed by that stereo shop that quoted me $270 for the whole sheebang! And they'll install my "new" speakers in the doors at the same time! (young guy, maybe he was giving me the senior discount not realizing that I'm not that old just because the top of my head is shiny... ;) I'm halfway done with my 2" body lift... the cab remains... I may just pay to have someone do it... if I have any money left over after getting the little wagoneer out of sick bay... :( I had discount tires remount my Michelins on the Alloys I got from Jim Blair, they look fantastic! Had the white spokes mounted up with my old BFG 30x9.5s for the trailer so I can swap my other set of Alloy Slotted rims with Allan's Turbine style... They be ready Allan. All four have tires on 'em too. Decent tread even. :) If you make it over before I get 'em off the trailer you'll have to use the jack and wrench... ;) And the little wagoneer should be out of sick bay in another day or two and the wife will have wheels... and we'll all be able to ride to church in one vehicle! What a concept. :) I quit ushering so I don't have to show up early even! Wow. Two functional Jeeps, a family Jeep and time to enjoy both! Someone pinch me... I can see light at the end of the tunnel and I'm not hearing that funny locomotive sound... Who ever is sitting on Murphy you can let him up for a while... I'm not going to be operating a wrench for a few hours... ;) Thanx! You know if things keep going like this I might even be able to get the wife's projects done too... wait, what am I saying??? I'm totally out of control... ;) later, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #718 *************************