From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Feb 12 11:09:44 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, February 12 2000 Volume 01 : Number 723 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: Unlurk fsj: Need TAC temp sensor for '78 Cherokee Re: fsj: Re: Re: tailgate woes fsj: tailgate woes and lists fsj: Another Wagoneer Re: fsj: Another Wagoneer Re: fsj: tailgate woes and lists fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque fsj: Stock Intake? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:24:48 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Unlurk Welcome back from the self-imposed exile. : ) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 05:17:46 GMT From: Robert Barry Subject: fsj: Need TAC temp sensor for '78 Cherokee OK, who has one they can spare? Or are these available new? I need the temperature sensor that mounts in the base of the air-cleaner housing, and controls vacuum to the trap-door in the snorkel based on ambient temperature. It's a disc, with two nipples that go through the housing to connect to the vacuum lines, and one short stack that protrudes upward. If you have one, or know a source for them new, e-mail me direct. Thanks! ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:52:18 -0500 From: "Raymond Drouillard" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: tailgate woes I have yet to get slammed by a virus. I wiped out a few at work, though. In the past ten years, I can remember one serious virus infestation at work. It didn't cause any permanent damage, but we had to shut down and debug the machines one at a time. That thing spread across our network like wildfire. I remember McAffee finding one on my computer right after I installed Win98, but it was easy to wipe out. I also get very little spam. It must be clean living and a pure heart :-) Ray Drouillard - -----Original Message----- From: john To: Raymond Drouillard Cc: Brazzadog-at-aol.com ; fsj-at-digest.net Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 12:12 AM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: tailgate woes >At 07:00 PM 2/10/00 -0500, Raymond Drouillard wrote: >>Anyhow, I am using outlook express. It has an "inbox assistant" that drops >>my email to the appropriate folders based on which account I used to >>download it, subject line, "to" line, "from" line, or whatever I can dream >>up. That makes it MUCH easier to sort through my mail. >>Ray > >Eudora does the same thing and is MUCH more secure then outlook. I'm >forced to use outlook at work. I disabled IE 5 so I don't get slammed >with the myriad of macro viruses aimed at microsoft tools... > >john >----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com > ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >----------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:01:12 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: tailgate woes and lists john writes: >> :) three lists ain't a problem... << Four :-). But I can't find the subscription info. for #3...technically. There have been three periods of disquiet on the "original" FSJ list on ORC. Commonly referred to as the "other" list here. The 1st period result= ed in this list. The 2nd resulted in a 3rd FSJ List (the one I can't find the subscription info. for). And now RJ's start-up. The thing which keeps me off of the two latter lists above is I'm afraid they're being hosted (for free) by companies who are harvesting personal information for sale. They have to pay for the overhead somehow.= And it's probably a good idea that I don't attempt to juggle 4 FSJ Lists anyway. Heck, I have a hard enough time with two FSJ Lists. There's plent= y of evidence of that recently :-). Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 11-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:01:21 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Another Wagoneer Brazzadog-at-aol.com writes: >> Easily convertable to discs due to the open knuckle design. << Ben, '73 used the Dana 30 front-end. Where do you find the donor? CJ? I h= ad a local guy asking me these kinds of questions recently. = >> I'm pretty sure every Q-trac had 6 lug wheels. << '73 was 5 lug. Plus, the Q-T was in short supply in '73. Much more likely= to find the TH-400/D20 combo. >> I think the best years were in the late '70s. For the same money I'd choose one of those - if I could find one. << I'll agree...more in a minute. john writes: >> Each year has it's advantages and character. I really believe they ju= st got better and better. There are distinct ranges of good years. My first recommendation is 88 and up, then 86 and up, then 81 and up. Then 74 and up. In 88 a lot of the electrical issues related to wiring were resolved. In 86 they integrated the heating / ac system controls and added headrest= s. In 81 they did a few things to modernize for economy. In 74 they went to 6 lugs, and disc brakes... << I've been thinking about this recently. All started with the most recent heater in an '80s FSJ doesn't work very well thread on the "other= " list. AFter being on the lists now for a total 4 1/2 years and making man= y mental notes, I agree with Ben. And I'm being objective despite owning tw= o '79s. The following is based on gut feeling after reading who knows how many FSJ Posts. Late 70's advantages and disadvantages: TH-400 seems to be many times more reliable than the TF-727. Which doesn't make any sense because the TF-727 has a very good reputation everywhere except in a FSJ. Some of this may be attributable to some TF-727s not being rebuilt by someone like James who knows it inside and o= ut but, that doesn't cover why they fail the 1st time. You rarely hear of a TH-400 problem. Both my TH-400s have never been rebuilt after a combined 267,000 miles now. There seem to be less reliability problems with the Dana 20 and BW Q-T than with the NP cases. But this is no were near as one sided as the TH-4= 00 vs. TF-727 above. Right now I'd say having a BW Q-T would be a disadvantage because some key parts are no longer available. That may change if Crown begins to manufacture them. The '80s are supposed to be more fuel efficient but, there seems to be no significant difference in the mileage #s reported on the lists between= the two. Heaters that work very well but, I know of no differences between the two groups. Not sure why so many report poor heater performance in the '80s. I think the '80s owners with poor heaters should check the air flap= cable for full travel...a new thought. Gauges that work and are reasonably accurate including the gas gauge. '80s FSJs often have gauges which don't work at all and if they do, they'= re not accurate. They're for "entertainment value only" as is often said on the lists. 70's FSJs seem to have less trouble with low warm idle V-8 engine oil pressure. Although someone just reported relatively low oil pressure = on a '79 on the other list. But overall, the guys/gals driving '80s FSJs are= usually the ones asking about low V-8 oil pressure. '78 and '79 Ignition systems are bullet-proof. I was at the junk yard yesterday and found two Duraspark equip'd '78s with original modules= still installed. Both of my original modules still work too. '80's FSJs seem to require never ending Duraspark ignition module replacements and many owner's carry a spare. Wiring is much better secured, sealed against corrosion and thought-out i= n the late '70s. The only problem ever with mine was galvanic corrosion on the ammeter terminals in the Chero. A lot of '80s FSJs have burned to the= ground from wiring problems including one that lived in my neighborhood. But we don't know how much of that is attributable to stupid wiring trick= s. All 70s emission systems much more simple but, equally effective. Meaning= less "spaghetti" as John says. Electric tailgate windows are a problem on all FSJs no matter what year. But the electric side windows on the '78 & 79 (maybe '80 as well) Wagoneer Limiteds are of the steel gear type. Much better than the later model ratchet strap types (or whatever they're called) that require replacing the straps on a regular basis. Otherwise, all FSJs before '80 have manual side windows. IN '78, Jeep changed the front floor pan and added 3" of front seat leg room. Any '77-'79 FSJ has the beefiest Dana 44 front and rear axles versions ever made. All with the thick tubes, 30 spline rear axles, HD spindles an= d 30 spline inner-19 spline outers up front. This is more of a late '70s advantage over the previous FSJs. The Dana 44 rear axle is only a minor advantage over '80s FSJs with the Dana 20 and the '80s FSJs also retained= the thick tube front housings. The '79-'80 Wags and '78-'80 Cherokees & J-Trucks were delivered with the highest factory ride = height of any FSJs ever produced. The springs on these models/years are less susceptible to = sagging than other year FSJs. Especially the rear springs. '80 and up Wags and Cherokees with the skid plate have trouble with left frame rail rot-out along side the gas tank. '79s and before don't have th= is problem at all. I'd say the biggest problem with the '77-79s is the build quality on the body. The fit and = finish is terrible which allows for plenty of air and water leaks inside.= The '79s are = especially bad since Jeep built so many of them that year. If a late '70s= FSJ still has floorboards at this point, it was either put together better than most or= kept inside all this time. My '79 Wag. falls into the put together better than most column while the '79 Chero wouldn't have floorboards if I hadn't systematically hunted down every body leak and fixed them all. Only took me 6 years to find every last one of them. Body build quality on previous and subsequent year FSJs seems to be progressively better. Especially in the direction of the '80s and '90s. For the most part rust doesn't affect day to day, turn the key and it does what it's supposed to do, reliability. It becomes a pain when= you put your foot through the floor like I did yesterday in the back seat= of a '71 Wag. while pulling the engine out though. If you find a late '70s FSJ which still has rear quarter panels and floorboards, it'll be a good one. Just put some Q-T parts on a shelf.= Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 11-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:45:54 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Another Wagoneer A: D30? I thought they were still D27? I know CJ and IH Scouts had interchangeable stuff then, and the XJs run D30 as well. (solid axle in newer ones) Michael=A0Baxter wrote: Ben, '73 used the Dana 30 front-end. Where do you find the donor? CJ? I had a local guy asking me these kinds of questions recently. Brazzadog-at-aol.com writes: Easily convertable to discs due to the open knuckle design. << I'm pretty sure every Q-trac had 6 lug wheels. << '73 was 5 lug. Plus, the Q-T was in short supply in '73. Much more likely to find the TH-400/D20 combo. (snip) Mike wrote: I've been thinking about this recently. All started with the most recent heater in an '80s FSJ doesn't work very well thread on the "other" list. A: I fixed mine by putting a tee in the vacuum line and having heat top and bottom at the same time. >M: AFter being on the lists now for a total 4 1/2 years and making many mental notes, I agree with Ben. And I'm being objective despite owning two '79s. The following is based on gut feeling after reading who knows how many FSJ Posts. Late 70's advantages and disadvantages: TH-400 seems to be many times more reliable than the TF-727. Which doesn't make any sense because the TF-727 has a very good reputation everywhere except in a FSJ. Some of this may be attributable to some TF-727s not being rebuilt by someone like James who knows it inside and out but, that doesn't cover why they fail the 1st time. A: As I've mentioned on all the lists from time to time, what kills them is lack of maintenance, heat (over 180 =3D quicker death the higher it goes), passing gear linkage set to upshift too low (too low of pressure to keep clutches engaged. That's why the spring is on my passing gear linkage {pic on photopoint} as I haul a 3 ton trailer, and just about everything else under the sun with Elmo, with a 999 lockup, the weaker brother of the 727) >M: You rarely hear of a TH-400 problem. Both my TH-400s have never been rebuilt after a combined 267,000 miles now. There seem to be less reliability problems with the Dana 20 and BW Q-T than with the NP cases. But this is no were near as one sided as the TH-400 vs. TF-727 above. Right now I'd say having a BW Q-T would be a disadvantage because some key parts are no longer available. That may change if Crown begins to manufacture them. A: I agree. The VC is nice and all, but my NP208 out pulled a FSJ with 401 and QT in Edrive last summer on dry pavement (he didn't have low range, and I have 3:1) >M: The '80s are supposed to be more fuel efficient but, there seems to be no significant difference in the mileage #s reported on the lists between the two. A: Unless you count Elmo's 20 mpg with a BBD carb and no emission junk! I'd put a built 999 lockup behind a stock 360 anyday! >M: Heaters that work very well but, I know of no differences between the two groups. Not sure why so many report poor heater performance in the '80s. I think the '80s owners with poor heaters should check the air flap cable for full travel...a new thought. A: That and the door felt is glued on rather than riveted, and it falls across the heater core. >M: Gauges that work and are reasonably accurate including the gas gauge. '80s FSJs often have gauges which don't work at all and if they do, they're not accurate. They're for "entertainment value only" as is often said on the lists. 70's FSJs seem to have less trouble with low warm idle V-8 engine oil pressure. Although someone just reported relatively low oil pressure on a '79 on the other list. But overall, the guys/gals driving '80s FSJs are usually the ones asking about low V-8 oil pressure. A: I think the gauges are also suspect here. >M: '78 and '79 Ignition systems are bullet-proof. I was at the junk yard yesterday and found two Duraspark equip'd '78s with original modules still installed. Both of my original modules still work too. '80's FSJs seem to require never ending Duraspark ignition module replacements and many owner's carry a spare. A: I do too, but leave it home most of the time. I think it's caused by a change in the wiring from ground inside the dist to body ground only. Elmo's was shot when I got it, and the DSPO gave up on it, not knowing what it was (after a ring gear, and 4 starters, because it kept snapping starter noses) >M: Wiring is much better secured, sealed against corrosion and thought-out in the late '70s. The only problem ever with mine was galvanic corrosion on the ammeter terminals in the Chero. A lot of '80s FSJs have burned to the ground from wiring problems including one that lived in my neighborhood. But we don't know how much of that is attributable to stupid wiring tricks. A: Added wiring for emmisions adds to the problem too. >M: All 70s emission systems much more simple but, equally effective. Meaning less "spaghetti" as John says. A: I passed '83 Emissions with nothing attached, clean enough to pass '95 as well! >M: Electric tailgate windows are a problem on all FSJs no matter what year. But the electric side windows on the '78 & 79 (maybe '80 as well) Wagoneer Limiteds are of the steel gear type. Much better than the later model ratchet strap types (or whatever they're called) that require replacing the straps on a regular basis. Otherwise, all FSJs before '80 have manual side windows. A: ALL my windows are manual, and I like it just fine! >M: IN '78, Jeep changed the front floor pan and added 3" of front seat leg room. A: If I decide to get one of those W/O '76 Chero bodies to put on my '84 frame, will I have mounting trouble? >M: Any '77-'79 FSJ has the beefiest Dana 44 front and rear axles versions ever made. All with the thick tubes, 30 spline rear axles, HD spindles and 30 spline inner-19 spline outers up front. This is more of a late '70s advantage over the previous FSJs. The Dana 44 rear axle is only a minor advantage over '80s FSJs with the Dana 20 and the '80s FSJs also retained the thick tube front housings. The '79-'80 Wags and '78-'80 Cherokees & J-Trucks were delivered with the highest factory ride height of any FSJs ever produced. The springs on these models/years are less susceptible to sagging than other year FSJs. Especially the rear springs. A: I think Elmo had the plough spring package. I still sit level, and only had to air up the rear shocks to rise up under load. >M: '80 and up Wags and Cherokees with the skid plate have trouble with left frame rail rot-out along side the gas tank. '79s and before don't have this problem at all. A: Wish I hadn't found out the hard way! There are at least 2 spots on Elmo's frame that need welding. If I get the other body, I'll put it on the '84 frame, and patch up Elmo's frame (probably just keep him the way he is) >M: I'd say the biggest problem with the '77-79s is the build quality on the body. The fit and finish is terrible which allows for plenty of air and water leaks inside. The '79s are especially bad since Jeep built so many of them that year. If a late '70s FSJ still has floorboards at this point, it was either put together better than most or kept inside all this time. A: I intend to seal the whole body underside on Elmo with kevlar resin when I do the swap (or the new body!) >M: My '79 Wag. falls into the put together better than most column while the '79 Chero wouldn't have floorboards if I hadn't systematically hunted down every body leak and fixed them all. Only took me 6 years to find every last one of them. Body build quality on previous and subsequent year FSJs seems to be progressively better. Especially in the direction of the '80s and '90s. For the most part rust doesn't affect day to day, turn the key and it does what it's supposed to do, reliability. It becomes a pain when you put your foot through the floor like I did yesterday in the back seat of a '71 Wag. while pulling the engine out though. If you find a late '70s FSJ which still has rear quarter panels and floorboards, it'll be a good one. Just put some Q-T parts on a shelf. A: I have the rear 1/4s from the '84 I will be chopping to fit Elmo. I'm trying to make room to bring all the '82 WT goodies home so I can flog off what I don't need. I still have full length '84 rockers for only $20 each, with the door post included. I may be looking to get another fill line for the '84 frame's setup. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:08:47 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: tailgate woes and lists A: The Non-PCfsj list? All you had to do was ask me! Michael=A0Baxter wrote: Four :-). But I can't find the subscription info. for #3...technically. There have been three periods of disquiet on the "original" FSJ list on ORC. Commonly referred to as the "other" list here. The 1st period resulted in this list. The 2nd resulted in a 3rd FSJ List (the one I can't find the subscription info. for). And now RJ's start-up. The thing which keeps me off of the two latter lists above is I'm afraid they're being hosted (for free) by companies who are harvesting personal information for sale. They have to pay for the overhead somehow. And it's probably a good idea that I don't attempt to juggle 4 FSJ Lists anyway. Heck, I have a hard enough time with two FSJ Lists. There's plenty of evidence of that recently :-). =A0=A0Michael Baxter, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:09:35 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com writes: >> Early models with the higher outputs had the valve timing set for maximum engine output. Unfortunately, this resulted in unburned fuel escaping out the exhaust. This in turn caused poor fuel economy and more= pollution. << The valve event timing for the 360 never changed from '71 to '91. The compression ratio was a little bit more for '71-'73ish at 8.4 to 1. 8.25 to 1 after that. The 2150 is a slightly bigger carb. than the 2100 f= or the 2bbls. Other than that, there is no rhyme or reason for Jeep's power specs. being all over the graph. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 11-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:09:38 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Stock Intake? I'm not even going to make any excuses this time :-). At this point, ther= e are no excuses. I'm on a roll this week I tell yea. Kind of started on Tu= e. when I agreed to help out Robert MacLay (Mac) by looking at that '69 J-Truck part-out I posted on the lists. ONly time the guy (Greg) had to meet was after work. As in after dark. Mac really needed a Buick 350 for his '70 bad but, he would settle for having the whole truck as a parts truck if it was fairly decent. My mission was to ascertain whether or not= the truck is in good enough shape to warrant getting the whole thing. So = I meet the guy and he has already pulled the engine. It's sitting 15 ft. in= front of the truck. He says the previous guy said it runs strong. I look over the truck carefully and it really isn't too bad except it is obvious= it has been rode hard and put away wet. Sheet metal cracks all over the place. The DSPO was turning 38s and all he had to help him was the Ross c= am and lever manual steering box. = So Greg and I stand there between the engine and the truck and discuss Jeep drivetrains. Even talking about whether or not Greg could use the fl= y wheel from the engine on his 225 V-6 in his '48 Willy's. Internal and external balance and all that. Through-out this whole thing, I fail to notice the distributor is on the back of the engine...as in Chevy SB and not Buick 350. Mac arrives and we simultaneously realize it's a Chevy. Oops... Making a long story short, I save face but, not before we do find a Buick 350, remove a valve cover, find a broken rocker, inspect a little more closely= and find a rod sticking though the oil pan. Luckily, there was another Buick 350 in the yard and this one turns-out to be worth the $125 risk fr= om Pick-N-Pull. Under the valve covers was clean, the plugs looked good, no carbon down the intake manifold, exhaust ports showed #8 burning a little= oil, acceptable though. Sent Mac home with what we hope will be a good runner. However, I make no promises that I'll actually be able to post replies to the correct list next week :-). Oh...did I mention it was raining the whole time we were pulling the second Buick engine. You'd think I lived in the PNW or something. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ FORWARDED MESSAGE - Orig: 11-Feb-00 22:00:39 Subject: Stock Intake? From: Michael Baxter MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com To: FSJ-List (Posts) INTERNET:fsj-list-at-lists.off-road.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------ "TLynn" writes: >> As far as I can tell the intake is stock yet it has the 4-hole(almost identical size) for the carb and not the spead bore. Is th= is not stock? << Jeep made the switch to the 4350 in the mid-70s someplace. Your's sounds like the true square-bore 4300 intake. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 11-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #723 *************************