From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Feb 12 12:11:06 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, February 12 2000 Volume 01 : Number 724 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: xj: naming rigs... fsj: Re: xj: Driveshaft Phasing... fsj: Re: Another Wagoneer Re: fsj: Re: Another Wagoneer Re: fsj: Another Wagoneer fsj: Jeep Flambe Re: fsj: Another Wagoneer fsj: Re: Another Wagoneer fsj: Re: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Re: fsj: lists fsj: '82 Cherokee Wide Track parts Re: fsj: trans / edelbrock fsj: Re: naming rigs... Re: fsj: Re: naming rigs... Re: fsj: Re: Another Wagoneer fsj: Another Wagoneer fsj: Re: J-10, J4000 question FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:47:12 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: xj: naming rigs... A: Livingston I presume? I wouldn't call it Stanley, unless you want a steam kettle! (Stanley Steamer was a steam car for those too young to remember, hmm or too old! LOL!) How about Grindel? John wrote: So, that brings me to the current issue of what to call my 83 J10 Stepside. It's copper brown metallic, but if I have my druthers I'll probably paint it the same color as the little wagoneer (light ivory creme or buff yellow). My wife absolutely, and unequivocably, hates it. She says it's a redneck vehicle. I asked her if I should get another Wagoneer rather, she said yes. I think she thinks it should serve as a family rig or something... But my kids are both driving and very soon to leave the nest... well..., I hope... ;) But I LIKE my truck. I don't want to mess around with that stupid rear window no mo'. Besides, the stepside is about the coolest FSJ I've ever owned. I've never seen a Wagoneer the way I want it (fully loaded) with a 6 cylinder... So, let's join our collective heads together and name the Stepside... :) Stanley comes to mind... but it's blank otherwise... :) I'm also thinking of custom plates: FSJ, 83 J10, 83 JEEP... suggestions? And yes, I saw the Seinfeld rerun... ;) john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:56:30 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: xj: Driveshaft Phasing... A: I discovered today that some older rigs have a driveshaft with an uneven number of splines! The one from the '65 P20 bus has 9 teeth! Dave Kamp wrote: Well, some center-expanding shafts and transmission tailshafts don't have a 'master' spline to enforce phasing. If it's a center-expander, and you goof the phase, then you can get some pretty dramatic rumble, because the imbalance caused by manufacturing weldments or slight imbalance in yoke forgings was originally offset by weights in the dynamic balance operation. =A0=A0Get it all swapped around, and the phasing WILL be noticable. As far as tailshaft and expander splines are concerned, anytime you have parts doing regular contact with a 'fixed' other part, they'll develop a 'mating pattern' of wear. If you switch it around so that the splines aren't in their original positions, the wear patterns won't match, and you'll have the probability of a malignment which will make even a balanced shaft run un-true. How 'noticeable' of a vibe is really dependant upon several factors: length of shaft, amount of imbalance, point of imbalance, how far the imbalance point is displaced from the shaft's axis, how fast you're spinning it, how much play is in the pinion and tranny points, that kinda stuff. An agricultural 540rpm PTO shaft hast'a be pretty darned imbalanced before you'll notice it from the seat of an Allis-Chalmers D-17, however, that tractor runs so loose, you probably wouldn't notice it any more than the hay-baler clunking along behind. If you replaced that shaft with a really good (or really bad) XJ driveshaft, you probably wouldn't notice a difference there either. Now, if you took that same shaft and planted it under your XJ, put on highway tires, and went on an interstate blast to Cheyenne, you'd notice it... matter of fact, you'd probably be replacing bearings and seals in both ends. Centrifugal force is a phenominal thing. John said: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:10:55 PST From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: Another Wagoneer I guess it is a good time to thank John for accepting me on this list. I have been on the lurking mode since last monday or tuesday, this is good to see familiar signatures. Mike B., this was quite a piece. To add to the heater probs, for some reason it can cake / plug pretty well. After it started to leak, i replaced it with a new one... i was amazed at how hot it could be, you can fry your foot! I have the same probs with all those lists, everything is a bit diluted. I totally quit the other list. On the technical side, i fixed my primary voltage and i am reading 8.9v now.... it was close to 6.9v. I put a ballast resistor from a bypass off the throttle solenoid -same circuit as the coil feed wire- at least on the 74. michel 74 wag ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:22:49 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Another Wagoneer A: Is that the correct voltage for the point replacer thing? (Brain Fart keeps me from presently remembering. Guess it's time for bed!) I stuck a Dodge electronic ignition coil on my buddy's '70 Ford pickup today, and what a difference! He had to replace 2 plugs every 6,000 miles from fouling (It was due for one today, but I changed the coil first) It self cleaned the plug! michel=A0balea wrote: I guess it is a good time to thank John for accepting me on this list. I have been on the lurking mode since last monday or tuesday, this is good to see familiar signatures. Mike B., this was quite a piece. To add to the heater probs, for some reason it can cake / plug pretty well. After it started to leak, i replaced it with a new one... i was amazed at how hot it could be, you can fry your foot! I have the same probs with all those lists, everything is a bit diluted. I totally quit the other list. On the technical side, i fixed my primary voltage and i am reading 8.9v now.... it was close to 6.9v. I put a ballast resistor from a bypass off the throttle solenoid -same circuit as the coil feed wire- at least on the 74. michel 74 wag ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 06:35:20 -0800 From: Joe Schaefer Subject: Re: fsj: Another Wagoneer At 22:45 2/11/00 -0800, you wrote: >A: D30? I thought they were still D27? I know CJ and IH Scouts had >interchangeable stuff then, and the XJs run D30 as well. (solid axle in >newer ones) > > Jim, the 71-73 Wags ran the D30 front Regards, joe schaefer, nordland wa, usa, oldiron-at-waypt.com 63 wag, 73 j-4000, 82 cj-8 "we doan need no steenkin power windows..." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:29:31 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Jeep Flambe Fortunately not an SJ, but still pretty nasty! http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=133453&a=1769770 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:49:52 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Another Wagoneer A: Ah! That's why the '70 I looked at had a blown D27 and a buick 350! I wrote: D30? I thought they were still D27? I know CJ and IH Scouts had interchangeable stuff then, and the XJs run D30 as well. (solid axle in newer ones) Joe=A0Schaefer wrote: Jim, the 71-73 Wags ran the D30 front Regards, joe schaefer, nordland wa, usa, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:37:06 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Another Wagoneer Whew. Another impressive piece of brain-work from MB : ) That belongs on a web page somewhere. Thanks for backing up my "late 70s are best" assertion. It makes me feel better about my mental mastication of the '73 front axle/t-case issue. : ) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:30:41 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque At 01:01 AM 2/12/00 -0500, Michael Baxter wrote: >>> 1984 V-8 360 (5.9L) borexstroke = 3.88x3.19 ><< > >Did you type that or copy/paste? If it was the latter, better go fix >the source. 360 = 4.08 x 3.44. oops... that's right... I copied (visually) the wrong line... :] That's the b x s for the 4 cylinder... :} Which just goes to show that I SHOULD wear my bifocals when working on the computer... :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:37:21 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: lists well, at least Michael doesn't post to lists he doesn't even know about like I did... remember that fiasco with some Jeep list and Eudora? :) It takes special computer skills to do that. john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:12:02 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: '82 Cherokee Wide Track parts The deal has gone through! I now have a D44 WT 3.31 front axle with new gears and new lockright? LSD plus a D44 WT rear with new gears AND new LSD (he thinks it's trac loc) for $500 each (Randy's Ring and Pinion did them). 360 motor parts: (redone heads with Crane roller rockers) $250 the pair, 2 Edelbrock intakes $100 each, Edelbrock tubular headers (lightly used) $50, WT and NT brushguards $75 each, 2 rads $50 each and some other spare bits and pieces. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:15:44 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: trans / edelbrock At 08:58 AM 2/12/00 EST, you wrote: >My Grand Wag is up and running but I still have a pesky trans leak. >Barry > >PS The Edelbrock performer pakage (cam,intake, and carb) is incridibal I just >can't wait until I can afford a set of ceramic coated headers for it. Check the o-ring by the dipstick. :) I have to agree on the Edelbrock... smooth as silk... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:02:41 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: naming rigs... At 11:47 PM 2/11/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: Livingston I presume? I wouldn't call it Stanley, unless you want >a steam kettle! (Stanley Steamer was a steam car for those too young to >remember, hmm or too old! LOL!) How about Grindel? Grindel? Elmo? Livingston? Family Truckster? Copper King? Ole Yeller? Imagine yourself talking to your rig driving down the road encouraging him to make it home, or up that hill... and using one of those names... :) It was natural to encourage "Fritz" or "Old Blue". I could even cuss Fritz out in German... it was a natural. It just fit. Maybe I should read some more Granville King to get some inspiration. BTW, no one answered about the naming of his dawgs, er, dogs... "Superdawg". Hey, now there's an idea! In memory of the grouchiest old four wheeler with a heart for critters and Wagoneers, and a way of butchering the english with such elegance... "Superdawg". I was just rummaging through a pile of "old" magazines and found my March 92 issue of Four Wheeler (while looking for the Sept 92 issue that has an article on beefing up a 258!!! I done found the mother lode of literature lurking under the counter!!! yee haw!). In the Mar 92 issue there is a piece called "The gospel according to Granville". I am going to try to get permission to include this piece in my book. It's a nice summary of several of his pieces. It also mentioned that it's been more than two years since his death... :( I remember when I got the issue talking of his accident in Baja... Man, I didn't realize it was that long ago... I will see if I can get permission to post a copy on my web site of this article, it's a classic. It's the March 1992 issue of Four Wheeler, pp 114 ff. I'm gonna read it again... Then I'm gonna go out and work on Superdawg... (and give just a little more thought to actually using that name... ;) ttyl, john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:53:44 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: naming rigs... A: How about King? (seems obvious to me!) I wrote: Livingston I presume? I wouldn't call it Stanley, unless you want a steam kettle! (Stanley Steamer was a steam car for those too young to remember, hmm or too old! LOL!) How about Grindel? Grindel? Elmo? Livingston? Family Truckster? Copper King? Ole Yeller? Imagine yourself talking to your rig driving down the road encouraging him to make it home, or up that hill... and using one of those names... :) It was natural to encourage "Fritz" or "Old Blue". =A0 I could even cuss Fritz out in German... it was a natural. It just fit. Maybe I should read some more Granville King to get some inspiration. BTW, no one answered about the naming of his dawgs, er, dogs... "Superdawg". Hey, now there's an idea! In memory of the grouchiest old four wheeler with a heart for critters and Wagoneers, and a way of butchering the english with such elegance... =A0 "Superdawg". I was just rummaging through a pile of "old" magazines and found my March 92 issue of Four Wheeler (while looking for the Sept 92 issue that has an article on beefing up a 258!!! I done found the mother lode of literature lurking under the counter!!! yee haw!). In the Mar 92 issue there is a piece called "The gospel according to Granville". =A0 I am going to try to get permission to include this piece in my book. It's a nice summary of several of his pieces. It also mentioned that it's been more than two years since his death... :( =A0 I remember when I got the issue talking of his accident in Baja... Man, I didn't realize it was that long ago... I will see if I can get permission to post a copy on my web site of this article, it's a classic. It's the March 1992 issue of Four Wheeler, pp 114 ff. I'm gonna read it again... Then I'm gonna go out and work on Superdawg... (and give just a little more thought to actually using that name... ;) ttyl, john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:12:38 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Another Wagoneer At 01:37 PM 2/12/00 EST, Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >Whew. Another impressive piece of brain-work from MB : ) That belongs on a >web page somewhere. Thanks for backing up my "late 70s are best" assertion. >It makes me feel better about my mental mastication of the '73 front >axle/t-case issue. : ) >Ben Funny, that was my thought too... that's why you'll find it at: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/late70s.txt I agree with Michael on the TH400s. For years I'd heard of Elephant power... Figured the Chrysler trannies were indestructable... but after Old Blue ate more than three of 'em... I'm not so sure about the infallibilty of the Torqueflite any more... Unless of course Chrysler sold Jeep weaker units so they would eventually ruin Jeep and then buy them out later, and then switch over to the Aisin Warner trannies so their reputation would be fantastic and then Mercedes would want to buy them... ;) Ok, so the "ideal" Grand Wagoneer would be something like this: a 69 Buick 350 with an edelbrock setup a 78 or 79 TH400 an 88 or up electrical system an 86 or up heat/ac system a 78 or up floor pan a 66 or earlier grille an 80 or up axle setup using Dana 44s fore and aft and a set of rear doors from a Suburban... :) no, wait, from a 67 Panel... painted Light Ivory Creme with a Beige interior, rolling on BFG AT kos or michelin LTX's... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:08:01 GMT From: Robert Barry Subject: fsj: Another Wagoneer >I've been thinking about this recently. All started with the most [snip] >'79s. The following is based on gut feeling after reading who knows how >many FSJ Posts. > >Late 70's advantages and disadvantages: > >TH-400 seems to be many times more reliable than the TF-727. Which On the whole, I'd have to say that's a draw. I've got 170,000 on the TF727 of unknown maintenance history in my '88 GW, and it shifts like new. I don't know if there are 89,000 or 189,000 on the TH400 in my '78 Cherokee (its only flaw is that it takes a three-count to engage "D", though "R" engages immediately), but the original TH400 in my Buick Electra lasted for 225,000 miles. So you're probably doing something wrong if you're not getting 200,000 miles out of either tranny. >The '80s are supposed to be more fuel efficient but, there seems to be >no significant difference in the mileage #s reported on the lists between= >the two. I think the difference between the various 360's is the difference between bad and worse. It's really a matter of the individual truck and its history, not fundamental design. >Gauges that work and are reasonably accurate including the gas gauge. >'80s FSJs often have gauges which don't work at all and if they do, they'= OTC, the gauges in my '88 are much more responsive than the ones in my '78. Plus I prefer the voltmeter to the ammeter. I'd vote for the later versions being superior, on a day-to-day basis. >70's FSJs seem to have less trouble with low warm idle V-8 engine >oil pressure. Although someone just reported relatively low oil pressure = I've experienced the opposite; again, maybe the early owners presume a max of 30psi to be about par for a 22-year old truck, while a '91 GW owners is worried that he sees *only* 60psi on the highway when warm... >'78 and '79 Ignition systems are bullet-proof. I was at the junk >yard yesterday and found two Duraspark equip'd '78s with original modules= My '78 has the original; the newer models call for a different part #, though I'm not sure what the difference is. >Wiring is much better secured, sealed against corrosion and thought-out >in the late '70s. True; many connectors on my '88 were green... >The only problem ever with mine was galvanic corrosion on >the ammeter terminals in the Chero. A lot of '80s FSJs have burned to the= >ground from wiring problems including one that lived in my neighborhood. Yes, nearly catching fire is one complaint I do have about my '78... ;) >Any '77-'79 FSJ has the beefiest Dana 44 front and rear axles versions >ever made. All with the thick tubes, 30 spline rear axles, HD spindles an= >d >30 spline inner-19 spline outers up front. This is more of a late '70s >advantage over the previous FSJs. The Dana 44 rear axle is only a minor >advantage over '80s FSJs with the Dana 20 and the '80s FSJs also retained= >the thick tube front housings. Of course, in late '86 and up Jeep went with D44's in back again (without any inner grease seals, which makes things simpler), so the only advantage of the earlier ones is the gear ratios available. >The '79-'80 Wags and '78-'80 Cherokees & J-Trucks were delivered with >the highest factory ride = >height of any FSJs ever produced. The springs on these models/years are Hmmm, my '78 Cherokee with the HD springs and a near-gutted rear compartment has an *identical* ride-height to our fully-loaded '88 GW (I backed them together just the other night to check, as the bobbed quarters on my Cherokee make it *look* like it rides higher; and I wasn't measuring at the bumper (the '78 mounts a little higher), but at the body-lines.). >'80 and up Wags and Cherokees with the skid plate have trouble with left >frame rail rot-out along side the gas tank. '79s and before don't have th= >is problem at all. Definite advantage to the earlier models (I spent in frame-repair on the '88 what I originally spent to buy my '78!) >especially bad since Jeep built so many of them that year. If a late '70s= >FSJ still has >floorboards at this point, it was either put together better than most or= No question on this; I just think of the oil-canning "pops" from my riveted-in floor patches as an audio "flex-o-meter"... :) ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:18:29 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: J-10, J4000 question At 02:32 PM 2/12/00 EST, SMTNR1-at-aol.com wrote: >My cousin needs to change the rear differential in a 1977 J-10 PU. How do you >determine the gear ratio without disassembling the differential? Is there a >manual or workbook available. there is usually a tag, or markings somewhere on the pumpkin... of course if anyone has swapped stuff... the other trick is to rotate the wheel and count the driveshaft revolutions. > >Also I have a 1970 J-4000 PU that we can't decide what the size is of the PU >suspension 1/2 ton-3/4ton or ton. there will be a model number on the data plate. the standard catalog of 4x4's has a breakdown... > >I also have a 1979 Jeep Cherokee Chief I use for my business & a 1976 >Wagoneer used for parts. I think that is called jeep overload. I'm down to three jeeps... my 88 xj wagoneer ltd, my 83 j10 stepside and my son's 67 J3000 (model 3406W, 1/2t) :) > >Thanks for any information, >>Dale Harris Owner/Broker >Stone Mountain Realty >143 John P. Frank Parkway >Traphill, North Carolina 28685 >336-957-4351 > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #724 *************************