From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Feb 17 13:02:37 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, February 17 2000 Volume 01 : Number 733 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Re: fsj: OME Springs Re: fsj: Re: naming rigs... Re: fsj: 0.9ohms between (+) and ground = Major Short? fsj: Re: Re: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque fsj: Re: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Re: fsj: 0.9ohms between (+) and ground = Major Short? fsj: OME Springs fsj: Re: xj: Re: How to determine which axle you have fsj: Fw: AMC 360 Flywheel cast # info wanted fsj: Re: Hard Parts for FJS fsj: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update Re: fsj: Re: Hard Parts for FJS fsj: outdoorwire.com FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:06:11 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque A: AMC and GM did that, but were sneaky about it. Only Ford advertised it much. We used to get the earlier timing kits (which aren't available anymore) and put them in the newer vehicles for a major bump in performance! The retarding was to knock down the NOX, BTW. At 4 degrees, everything picks up. I ground the keyway in a Ford 2300 to do that. Some people also reversed the crank gear to get advanced rather than retarded timing! Michael Baxter wrote: (snip) Of course, If AMC just changed the keyway as James pointed out the possibility and left the grind the same, it would still affect performance. Valve event timing is in crankshaft degrees and if you advance or retard it relative the to the crankshaft, the performance will change. However 4 degrees retarded is only moderate and we could easily achieve '71 cam specs. with an aftermarket gear with 4 degree either way and straight-up keyholes if this turns-out to be what the AMC engineers did. I've theorized on the list before (with John mainly) that what someone really ought to do was advance the stock cam at least 8 degrees. I believe that'll pick-up the bottom-end, flatten the torque curve and increase mileage. At the expense o ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:09:02 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: OME Springs A: I could give you the measurements off my brand new Paccar springs I got from Gitt spring for my '83 Cherokee. They are 3" lift, with Snowplough front boost (to compensate for the winch and Scotty's bumper I plan to put on) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:33:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jeep Wagoneer Subject: Re: fsj: Re: naming rigs... I'm thinking of naming my Wagoneer "Kludge" It is how I originally paid for it (lots of overtime kludging up software) and that is how I often fix problems.. but.. it seems that everybody in my family and circle of friends simply calls it "the Wag". It would be hard to break the name at this point (nearly 3 years!, anniversary in March!) ===== John Jacobs - jeep_wag_75-at-yahoo.com 1975 Jeep Wagoneer Royal Oak, Michigan http://members.home.net/jacobsj/index.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:01:28 -0600 From: poolcues-at-bellsouth.net Subject: Re: fsj: 0.9ohms between (+) and ground = Major Short? My Dad always said once you get it started,, take off the neg. battery wire, off while it is running, if the engine shuts off, then it's more then likely the alternator.. new cars have the newer computers, for those it's a bit more risky.. But on old Jeeps you can.. R.J. john wrote: > you mentioned the alternator... duh... disconnect the lead > going to the alternater and test again... if you have a bad regulator > or a shorted diode it'll do the same thing... > > remove the red lead going to the stud on the back, and disconnect > the plug... test again and see... > > If you pegged the needle at 10A with everything off it points to > the alternator... > > john > > At 05:31 PM 2/16/00 -0500, Robert Barry wrote: > >At 02:06 PM 2/16/2000 -0800, john wrote: > >>make sure everything is turned off... > >>as James pointed out, pull the fuse to the clock, and the > >> memory to the radio... > > > >The wire feeding the clock is pulled from the fusebox, and there is no > >radio. And, of course, the door was closed, so the domelights did not have > >a completed circuit. > > > >>everything else should be off... pulling the fuses out might > >>be a good idea. Then plug 'em in one by one and check. > > > >That's part of what I'll be doing. > > > >>Look for wires that are rubbing too. > >> > >>what might be a better test is to get an amp meter and put it > >>in line with the cables, with everything turned off and see if > >>there is any leakage current, if so, how much? > > > >My multimeter only goes up to 10A; it pegged that meter when I had it > in-line. > > > >Actually, a bad short will be easier to trace than a minor short; the > >damage should be pretty evident. I'm betting on either the alternator or > >the tailgate components; we'll find out this weekend! > >________________________________________________ > >Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu > >http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com > ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:28:26 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Re: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque In a message dated 2/16/2000 5:55:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:19:25 -0800 (PST) > From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) > > A: What's the '76 Jeep 401 torque and HP? I have someone on the other > list saying a Buick 455 makes more out of the box! According to Chilton's it's 215 hp at 4200 and 320 at 2800. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:28:14 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Chilton's strikes again. I checked mine and it also says 18.5* in '71 and 14.75* in '72. So... I got out my '71 TSM and it indicates 14* 74'. I've used different notations here 'cause I can't remember(for sure) how many minutes are in a degree (60?) and I want to accurately represent what I found in the books. The TSM otherwise seems to confirm the numbers Cornel provided for '71. It also shows something called "taxable horsepower"(whatever that is) of 53.27. However, my 360 will never see 4400 rpm let alone 5000! Also bear in mind that the 4 barrel was not an option for FSJ's in '71. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:40:48 EST > From: OrigamiTB-at-aol.com > > In a message dated 2/15/00 12:29:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com wrote about valve-timing: > > > In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had its intake valves opening at 18 1/2 degrees. > > In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had its intake valves opening at 14 3/4 degrees. > > That doesn't jibe with what I found in Chilton's "AMX and Javelin" and > Petersen's "Complete Book of Engines": > > 1970 360 V-8 (both 2-bbl and 4-bbl): > lift int/exh: 0.425/0.425 > intake open/close/duration: 18.50 / 67.50 / 266 > exhaust open/close/duration: 60.50 / 25.50 / 266 > overlap: 44 > (2-bbl) hp-at-rpm/torque-at-rpm: 245-at-4400 / 365-at-2400 > (4-bbl) hp-at-rpm/torque-at-rpm: 290-at-4800 / 395-at-3200 > > 1971 360 V-8 (both 2-bbl and 4-bbl): > lift int/exh: 0.425/0.425 > intake open/close/duration: 14.74 / 68.75 / 263.49 > exhaust open/close/duration: 56.77 / 56.75 / 293.52 > overlap: 71.49 > (2-bbl) hp-at-rpm/torque-at-rpm: 245-at-4400 / 365-at-2600 > (4-bbl) hp-at-rpm/torque-at-rpm: 285-at-4800 / 330-at-5000(?!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:53:05 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque In a message dated 2/16/2000 5:55:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: > From: Michael Baxter (snip) > AMC also bumped the exhaust valve from 1.625" to 1.68" in '71 and they > dumped the log type exhaust manifolds for the much better flowing ones we= > have today. Actually I have one of each on my Wagoneer. I'm getting ready to swap the log out if anybody wants it. > And it looks like I missed the cam change by 1 year. I have the following= > > for '72, '76, '79 and '91. But please post the full '71 cam specs. becaus= > e > I'd love to see what they were doing back then. I'm rounding the event > timing to the nearest degree BTW. Heres what my '71 TSM says about cams (I'm anal so I didn't round) Cam Lobe Lift .266" (6.756mm) Camshaft End Play .000" Engine operating Camshaft Bearing Clearance .001" - .003" (0.025 - 0.076mm) IVO 14* 74' BTDC IVC 68* 75' ABDC Duration 263* 49' EVO 56* 77' BBDC EVO 56* 75' ATDC Duration 293* 52' Overlap 71* 49' I don't see anything about Lobe Seperation Angle and don't know how to calculate it. I'll bet Mr. Vizard's book I just bought would tell me though. Gotta finish reading my TH400 book first though : ) Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 04:13:46 GMT From: Robert Barry Subject: Re: fsj: 0.9ohms between (+) and ground = Major Short? At 02:51 PM 2/16/00 -0800, you wrote: >you mentioned the alternator... duh... disconnect the lead >going to the alternater and test again... if you have a bad regulator >or a shorted diode it'll do the same thing... > >remove the red lead going to the stud on the back, and disconnect >the plug... test again and see... I'm hoping it would be the alternator; I've got a good rebuilt one sitting in my basement just waiting to go on, and it has a higher output as well. That's not a problem, now that I have an additional 10gauge wire as a bypass to the ammeter. (I had been saving the alternator for an upgrade to an internally-regulated alternator for my Cutlass Supreme SX, but this is more pressing) >If you pegged the needle at 10A with everything off it points to >the alternator... Like I said, I'd rather have a blatant short than a slow drain; the damage should be more obvious, and the repair easier. It will have to wait for the weekend, as work is swamping me at the moment... :( ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:27:35 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: OME Springs "TLynn" writes: >> I've got a 75' J-10 in the air...would the distance on the frant be the same as the j_20? << Thanks but, the main difference between the J-10/WT and the J-20 is the hubs are a different. Starting with they're 8 lug. The housings are the same width out to the ball joints. Then the differences start. YOu know, I have a brand new set of J-20 hubs/rotors. I could probably compare the caliper mounts between my WT and the J-20's to see if the J-20's discs are positioned in the same plane, inboard or outboard of the= WT's discs. And then measure from the outside face of each's disc to the wheel mounting flange....I think that would work. I'd have to make sure t= he spindles are the same too...hmmm, I have a Parts Book. I think it'll stil= l work. In the mean time, if any one happens to have a disc brake J-20 on jack stands... :-) The purpose of all this is I'm once again starting to move forward with my axle retrofit. I need the data to make sure I don't cut-down the rear D-60's housing too much and make it look more eccentric than it already does with 3 3/8" more front track than rear track. The plan is to narrow that by about an inch. But if the front J-20 is wider wheel flange to whe= el flange than my WT's front axle is now, I'll be out of the running for DIY= engineering of the year :-). Other than small, easily obtainable, parts; I have all the small parts I need except the rear parking brake cables and rear brake lines. For the lines, I could bend them-up myself and double-flare the ends but, if I ca= n buy them prebent from someplace like Classic Tube or Inline Tube, I'll do= it to save time. For the big parts; I'm a couple of ARBs short :-) and tw= o 4340 front axle shafts, front stub shafts and two 1510H alloy custom leng= th full floater axle shafts for the D-60. I'm saving my lunch money. Plus th= e onboard air system to engage the ARBs and probably an AGR steering box bu= t, I'll probably run the stock pump. So to make a long story short, I need the measurement so I know how much to cut-down the rear D-60 so I know how much to tell Inline/Classic tube I'm cutting-down the the D-60 so they can make the brake tubes the correc= t length. Confused? I am. Anyone want to measure a Wag/Chero rear brake cable? I need that data to be able to tell Inline, I think is the one who makes custom brake cables,= how long my WT's are now. Then they can make the same length cables with the D-60 ends, I hope, and I'll have a parking brake. This is sort of a T= om Sawyer thing in case you didn't notice :-). Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 16-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:45:59 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: xj: Re: How to determine which axle you have A: I'm pretty good at spotting them too. BTW, I have a Eaton rear end in that '65 GMC P25 with duals! It's (hopefully) going to be hauled off for FREE tomorrow! (I should hope so! 7 good 8x19.5" tires, the rear end and a pile of metal in that frame! I almost made a trailer out of it) Anyone got an '84 or '85 Dana 35 axle I can borrow to match a Model 15? We're looking for 1 piece replacements for the AMC Eagles and Concords on the AMC-list. A bigger demand for aftermarket axles will mean a lower price for XJs too! Paul W. wrote: Hmmm... I can tell the difference between a D35, D44 and 8.25 in an XJ when I follow it down the freeway -at-70mph at a safe following distance by the shapes I described - that's LONG before I'm close enough to tell if their diff cover has a raised ridge or not... (good tip for the geometrically impaired though) 6-sided shape = D44 (similar to D60, 70, 80... but smaller) plain oval = D35 barely oval with the "pointy ears" forming a flat spot on the bottom = 8.25" Now if it's lifted 12" and 44" Swampers on it, that may be (sure hope it is!) a bigger Dana, Eaton, Rockwell, Sterling or a GM 14 bolt under there instead (and I can tell those apart, too - well, admittedly, I'm not real sharp on the BIG Eatons and Rockwells, but I can ID _some_ of them... ;) Paul W ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 01:50:59 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Fw: AMC 360 Flywheel cast # info wanted >From the AMC-list: "Kenny Schaneville" Wrote on Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:19:29 - -0600 I recently contacted Joe Lazur for help in my search for a flywheel for an AMC 360. He didn't have any information to help me, but refered me to you. First, do you have one or know where I can get one? And If not, I found an AMC flywheel for sale that the seller thinks is for a 360, but he's not sure, so I got the casting # from him and was wondering if you knew how I could find out for sure what it's for. The # is 3197219. I'd REALLY appreciate any information you could give me. Thank you very much for your time. Kenny - ---------------------------------------------- Listers and Kenny, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0I wrote a List article about this subject back in June of last year. I am re-posting it for those with an interest. Being in the parts business, I get to see many things that are more than just confusing, they're downright frustrating! I have in stock now, and have seen in the past, THREE distinctly different versions of the flywheel with part #3197219. If you have one of these flywheels, and you want to follow along with the description that follows, place your flywheel flat on the bench with the casting number facing up and at 12:00. (like you're reading a clock) Version #1: #3197219-C Crankshaft flange recess measurement: 4.500" Counterweight position: at 7:30 Known to be out of a dead stock 1970 390 4-speed car. Version #2: #3197219-C Crankshaft flange recess measurement: 4.500" Counterweight position: at 4:30 Known to be out of a dead stock 1970 360 4-speed car. Version #3: #3197219 =A0 Does not have the "-C" after the casting number, but does have "E-25" (or other letter/number combo) cast in just above the counterweight. Crankshaft flange recess measurement: 4.650 (approx. 5/32" larger than the above two versions) Counterweight position: 9:30 Exact application: unknown. Believed to be out of a 72/up 360 or 401 (304's do not have a counterweight) All cast-in counterweights are one square inch, with the exception of version #3 which is 1/4" shorter. (length 1", width 1", depth 3/4") For more info on this, or any other AMC related topic, give me a call. "The Voice Of Experience" Tony Zamisch California Classic AMC, Inc. Aerolite Mfg. Co. (619) 423-0364 www.amx-perience.com www.AMCWC.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:07:48 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Hard Parts for FJS At 12:54 AM 2/17/00 EST, JaredJeepers-at-gateway.net wrote: >I own a 83 Jeep J-10 and am having trouble finding anything or anyone to deal >with them. I was thinking of swapping the 360 engine for a chevy 350, can >you tell me what problems I might encounter and or what is needed. If >possible send me some links to help me out with my rather rare Jeep. >Adios, Jared Cool, another 83 j10 owner!! Is yours a stepside or the standard bed? You have a 360? sorry to hear that... I love my 258. If it dies I'm gonna either put a 4.0L out of an xj in it, or take the plunge and do a 6.5L Turbo Diesel. A Chevy 350 wouldn't be a bad way of going if you can get one with fuel injection. You'll have to change tranny / xfr case... You might rather consider the 4.0L... of course then you also have to do wiring... The 360 isn't a terrible motor, but I don't care for it. it leaks, is sensitive to vacuum and isn't very fuel efficient. Plenty of torque though... :) john - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/83stepside/ (Superdawg) http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Jx000s/marks-67-J3000/ (son's FSJ) http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:28:22 -0700 From: "Tacoma White" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update > A Chevy 350 wouldn't be a bad way of going if you can get one with fuel > injection. Gahhhhh! John, what's come over you!! AMC forever! I am stunned! The Jeepmeister RECOMMENDING a heart transplant for that most venerable of American motor vehicles! just kidding. IMO, a Chevy swap is more trouble than it's worth. Rebuild the AMC, so it DOESN'T leak, get some EFI on there and boom you're in like Flynn, everything fits right, no adapters/welding/rewiring/etc required. Unless you've got a built 350 w/harness sitting around, in which case it might be cheaper. But I doubt you do, right? and let it be said now that I am putting some GM product, either an EFI 350 crate motor, or a 6.2diesel w/6.5 turbo on it, into my Kaiser M725. But it's a lot harder to justify keeping (or in my case, reinstalling) an engine no one has used for 30 years that has no power at all (230 tornado). Not for a 6300#, 8ft green brick anyway. =) on the insurance front, my people are p***ed, the girl's phone is disconnected and she has no current insurance. They are considering suing her personally if I want to fix my bumper, which I could really care less about. It's only bent, and trucks are meant to be bent. Woulda happened in Moab sooner or later anyway. But I'm glad they don't want to pay. John, go wash your mouth out w/soap and never speak such an obscenity again! hahahh in UT Tacoma 78 Cherokee Chief 67 Kaiser M725 "Gigantor the Heep" icq 5058954 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:33:38 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Hard Parts for FJS A: Don't forget, it requires a changed front axle as well! You would be better off exchanging the transmission for a Dodge patterned 727 (since the tranny is already Dodge inside) and putting a 340 or 426 hemi in! WOO HOO! Or at least a 318. I have a core 727 case from a 5.2L Dodge that had EFI for $20 and UPS! (no internals, but everything from the Jeep on will fit) JaredJeepers-at-gateway.net wrote: I own a 83 Jeep J-10 and am having trouble finding anything or anyone to deal with them. I was thinking of swapping the 360 engine for a chevy 350, can you tell me what problems I might encounter and or what is needed. If possible send me some links to help me out with my rather rare Jeep. Adios, Jared Cool, another 83 j10 owner!! Is yours a stepside or the standard bed? You have a 360? sorry to hear that... I love my 258. If it dies I'm gonna either put a 4.0L out of an xj in it, or take the plunge and do a 6.5L Turbo Diesel. A Chevy 350 wouldn't be a bad way of going if you can get one with fuel injection. You'll have to change tranny / xfr case... You might rather consider the 4.0L... of course then you also have to do wiring... The 360 isn't a terrible motor, but I don't care for it. it leaks, is sensitive to vacuum and isn't very fuel efficient. Plenty of torque though... :) john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:52:52 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: outdoorwire.com >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 100 22:18:05 -1000 (HST) >From: Alan Chung >Subject: Re: xj: Been on CA lately?Jeep-L too > remember the Jeep-L too?! Yeah a lot of us came from that >list and or met on that list too...ahh the memories of it being >jeep-l-at-knuth.mtsu.edu...they are at ORC as well, but because of the >troubles, they are moving to the outdoorwire.com site. Yep the list >proctor is saying the move is because or ORC policies as well. Good >for them! Im glad thye are moving to somewhere else. And look at all >the other XJ emulated sites...more updates and all! Im glad I see >lots of people on these list and got to meet them personally. Dave Gray is involved with outdoorwire.com... Dave is pretty decent people... He was my superior at orc and buffered a lot of the crap that came down from the headcheese. Since he was actually earning his living from orc he couldn't say as much, or do as much as he wanted to do... it took him a while to escape... I know some of you had bad experiences with him on orc, I'm 95% certain that he was forced to do that by pjc and not on his own. john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #733 *************************