From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Feb 17 20:17:26 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, February 17 2000 Volume 01 : Number 734 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: orc Re: fsj: Re: Hard Parts for FJS Re: fsj: Re: Hard Parts for FJS fsj: Re: OME Springs Re: fsj: axles and swaps... Re: fsj: Re: OME Springs fsj: yahoo mail problem... fsj: J-4600 Re: fsj: axles and swaps... fsj: Re: J-4600 Re: fsj: J-4600 Re: fsj: axles and swaps... fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Elmo the wonder jeep does it again! fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Elmo the wonder jeep does it again! Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Elmo the wonder jeep does it again! fsj: Re: J10's, beds and parts fsj: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Re: fsj: RE: loving the FSJ commute... fsj: Re: Oil and Water pump Advice Re: fsj: RE: loving the FSJ commute... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:48:34 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: orc >I haven't been to CA in a long time... I've had too many friends and associates >get burned by the head cheeses at ORC, so I don't go there anymore. (Their >[ORC] policies and treatment of people are mostly responsible for this list's >existance, you know.) That at this latest BS over the rental SUV, just >reinforces what I already believe/feel about the people who actually get to put >money in their pocket from that site. > >Paul W >(didn't learn about ORC as quickly as John... sometimes it takes me a while ;) The sad part is there are a lot of great folks volunteering their time, effort and knowledge. It was pretty cool being part of something so visible. It was a rush, a head trip... On the other hand, when you stepped back and looked at the time and effort involved, and then the moral/personality issues of the owners... it became apparent that eventually you would become cannon fodder, the bad guy... the "evil" malcontent. For months I'd read staff email about this "evil" customer, or some "evil" malcontent that had left orc... you really had no idea that the problem really wasn't the "evil" person, but the head cheese... you don't pick up on little quirks about others right off, especially when dealing via email... It's a pretty cool concept, it's just too bad there are so many victims. :( The head cheese held a carrot out, stock, pay, etc. he'd string us along for months like that... I was there 11 months... I think I got some orc decals from them though... :) When I left I told 'em what I thought about them. Others, like Marc bowers, left quietly, not venting like I did... My only regret is moving the FSJ list there... starting the xj list on orc wasn't a bad thing, especially in conjunction with ca. problem was the head cheese got involved in what was happening on the lists, something he really had no right to do... anyways, the lists are here on digest.net now. I'm free and happy. It was just one of those experiences of life... :) I wish the best for those who have or are volunteering their skill/efforts... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:00:30 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Hard Parts for FJS At 11:33 AM 2/17/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: Don't forget, it requires a changed front axle as well! Y >JaredJeepers-at-gateway.net wrote: >I own a 83 Jeep J-10 and am having trouble finding anything or anyone to Say what??? Why would you need to change the front axle???? We're talking 80 and up, driver's side pumpkin... GM has the same setup, any NP is that way... ????? john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:59:23 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Hard Parts for FJS A: I was thinking switching to TH400 and Quadratrack. It's RH front axle. I wrote: Don't forget, it requires a changed front axle as well! Y JaredJeepers-at-gateway.net wrote: I own a 83 Jeep J-10 and am having trouble finding anything or anyone to Say what??? =A0 Why would you need to change the front axle???? We're talking 80 and up, driver's side pumpkin... GM has the same setup, any NP is that way... ????? john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:07:40 -0500 From: Robert Barry Subject: fsj: Re: OME Springs >Thanks but, the main difference between the J-10/WT and the J-20 is the >hubs are a different. Starting with they're 8 lug. The housings are the >same width out to the ball joints. Then the differences start. Here's a question: Will the J20 hubs bolt on to a NT D44 front end? Or would the spindle bolt on to the steering knuckle? Or would the steering knuckle from the J20 bolt onto the NT D44 housing? I may be coming across the front of an '80 J20, and I would like to upgrade my '78 NT 4-dr Cherokee to 8-lug rims all around. Since the pumpkin is on the "wrong" side of the truck, I was wondering if I could just swap hubs, spindles or knuckles to get 8-lugs up front. Of course, this is all just planning, as I'd need to swap the rear axle to get the 8-lugs out back; since I'm not stuck with working out the steering geometry out back, I might even go with an axle from another kind of truck, like a Ford or Chevy 3/4 or 1-ton van, as long as it had a ratio compatible with the 3.54:1 gearset up front (I don't want to swap front gears). >Anyone want to measure a Wag/Chero rear brake cable? I need that data to >be able to tell Inline, I think is the one who makes custom brake cables,= E-mail me direct tonight; the cable for my '78 Cherokee just happens to be sitting in its cargo area, so it won't be too much to measure it out. ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:13:22 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: axles and swaps... Quadratrac/th400... (recased th400 remember...) oh, my mind typically doesn't work in reverse. :) When we talk about converting to a GM engine, I'm almost automatically assuming a TH700R4 setup. Once you've had an overdrive, it's hard to go back. :) =20 A Jeep 4.0L out of an xj, wj, or zj, or yj or tj even, with the Aisin Warner 30-40LE is also a very good option, might have to change the sun gear on the xfr case to make it work, and do some wiring... :) With gas prices predicted to hit $2 a gallon by July in Washington State the 6.5L Turbo Diesel doesn't sound too bad... ;) john At 11:59 AM 2/17/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: I was thinking switching to TH400 and Quadratrack. It's RH front >axle. > >I wrote: >Don't forget, it requires a changed front axle as well! Y=20 > >JaredJeepers-at-gateway.net wrote:=20 >I own a 83 Jeep J-10 and am having trouble finding anything or anyone to=20 >Say what??? =A0 Why would you need to change the front axle???? We're >talking 80 and up, driver's side pumpkin... GM has the same setup, any >NP is that way...=20 >?????=20 >john=20 > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr >http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: >http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:17:59 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: OME Springs A: I watched someone with a Chev swap his, and he undid the ball joints and changed the whole knuckle. Robert=A0Barry wrote: Thanks but, the main difference between the J-10/WT and the J-20 is the hubs are a different. Starting with they're 8 lug. The housings are the same width out to the ball joints. Then the differences start. Here's a question: Will the J20 hubs bolt on to a NT D44 front end? Or would the spindle bolt on to the steering knuckle? Or would the steering knuckle from the J20 bolt onto the NT D44 housing? I may be coming across the front of an '80 J20, and I would like to upgrade my '78 NT 4-dr Cherokee to 8-lug rims all around. Since the pumpkin is on the "wrong" side of the truck, I was wondering if I could just swap hubs, spindles or knuckles to get 8-lugs up front. Of course, this is all just planning, as I'd need to swap the rear axle to get the 8-lugs out back; since I'm not stuck with working out the steering geometry out back, I might even go with an axle from another kind of truck, like a Ford or Chevy 3/4 or 1-ton van, as long as it had a ratio compatible with the 3.54:1 gearset up front (I don't want to swap front gears). Anyone want to measure a Wag/Chero rear brake cable? I need that data to be able to tell Inline, I think is the one who makes custom brake cables,=3D E-mail me direct tonight; the cable for my '78 Cherokee just happens to be sitting in its cargo area, so it won't be too much to measure it out. ______________________________________________ Bob Barry =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:23:41 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: yahoo mail problem... FYI: seems yahoo introduced an email bug that affected email, empty or garbled messages... http://news.cnet.com/category/0-1005-200-1545407.html john ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:26:15 -0600 From: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com Subject: fsj: J-4600 Well, I'm still not having any luck finding brake drums for my '73 J-4600. (12" x 2", 5 lug) Joe Schaefer had mentioned NAPA for the other brake parts so I thought I would go and talk to them again. I decided to go for the drums again first. (Without them, I am dead in the water anyway.) After not being able to locate them on the computer, and not being able to locate them in the book. And putting up with his attitude that I don't know what I am talking about, I just left. I'll have to cool down before I even think about going to that shop again. Anyway, I am going to start hunting for axles to swap on my truck. My truck does have Quadra Trac. My question is, what vehicles should I look for for the best/easiest axle swap? What should I avoid? What will or wont work? Thanks, Jamie "looking for drums in all the wrong places" Phillips '73 J4600 '77 F250 home email: jphil78888-at-aol.com work email: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:26:50 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: axles and swaps... A: I agree on going 6 cyl, but to put in an AW4 would require some more changes too! The tranny (AW4) needs to be set back further for a 6 cyl, plus the extra 5 or so inches of tranny, AND the AW4 needs to come from a '95 or newer to be 23 spline (IIRC) and bolt to the existing transfercase. The new system they came out with should make the gas price boost a little easier to take. They are getting up to 50 MPG from a rig like ours! Instead of 14:1 gas/fuel mix, they are getting 50:1 and making it run! Elmo is getting this setup, with a NP208. If gas jumps that much, food will also jump to double, and we will see the economy hit the crapper, due to out of controll inflation, just like it did in Canada! John wrote: Quadratrac/th400... (recased th400 remember...) oh, my mind typically doesn't work in reverse. :) When we talk about converting to a GM engine, I'm almost automatically assuming a TH700R4 setup. Once you've had an overdrive, it's hard to go back. :) A Jeep 4.0L out of an xj, wj, or zj, or yj or tj even, with the Aisin Warner 30-40LE is also a very good option, might have to change the sun gear on the xfr case to make it work, and do some wiring... :) With gas prices predicted to hit $2 a gallon by July in Washington State the 6.5L Turbo Diesel doesn't sound too bad... ;) john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:34:03 -0700 From: "Tacoma White" Subject: fsj: Re: J-4600 at least for late 60's M-series, the 14bolt rear axle is almost a direct swap. Spring perches need to be moved... out a bit if I remember. I'll be doing this swap in the next year. That's not going to help you for the front, but a 14bolt rearend is about bulletproof. Bigger axleshafts, etc etc. They are also plentiful in yards, as they were under most 3/4t and 1t GM trucks and vans..... - --Tacoma - ---------- > > My question is, what vehicles should I look for for the best/easiest axle > swap? What should I avoid? What will or wont work? > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:31:43 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: J-4600 A: Go for '76 to '79 Jtruck, unless you want to swap to a 727 tranny and NP series case. I have 2 3.31 ratio axles for that swap, with posi and new gears for $1000 for the pair, brakes included (not new, but still good) Jamie.L.Phillips wrote: Well, I'm still not having any luck finding brake drums for my '73 J-4600. (12" x 2", 5 lug) Joe Schaefer had mentioned NAPA for the other brake parts so I thought I would go and talk to them again. I decided to go for the drums again first. (Without them, I am dead in the water anyway.) After not being able to locate them on the computer, and not being able to locate them in the book. And putting up with his attitude that I don't know what I am talking about, I just left. I'll have to cool down before I even think about going to that shop again. Anyway, I am going to start hunting for axles to swap on my truck. My truck does have Quadra Trac. My question is, what vehicles should I look for for the best/easiest axle swap? What should I avoid? What will or wont work? Thanks, Jamie "looking for drums in all the wrong places" Phillips '73 J4600 '77 F250 home email: jphil78888-at-aol.com work email: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:39:30 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: axles and swaps... At 12:26 PM 2/17/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: I agree on going 6 cyl, but to put in an AW4 would require some more >changes too! The tranny (AW4) needs to be set back further for a 6 cyl, >plus the extra 5 or so inches of tranny, AND the AW4 needs to come from >a '95 or newer to be 23 spline (IIRC) and bolt to the existing I'd probably grab an older NP242 out of an xj, do the SYE kit, and modify my driveshafts... easy stuff... I have a 4.0L/aw and the wiring harness with computer, only need a TCU to make it happen. :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:01:59 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Elmo the wonder jeep does it again! Here's the url if you couldn't see it. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=13998&a=52261&p=16560321&Sequence=0 Hmm? Maybe works too! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:04:06 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Elmo the wonder jeep does it again! Darn! I forgot the html! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:06:08 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Elmo the wonder jeep does it again! Darn! I forgot the html! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:23:47 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: J10's, beds and parts At 04:18 PM 2/17/00 EST, you wrote: >John, it is actually a modified flatbed on which I plan to install a winch >assembly cradle capable of relocating to the front bumper when needed. I >just wish I could find a place that sells FS Jeep parts, if you know of any >let me know. olympic jeep is the only place I can think of besides local wrecking yards, jc whitney and the dealer... flatbed, cool... I was gonna do that if I couldn't find a stepside. I looked at one 74 J10 that had a Ford box on it... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:00:11 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque writes: nope....Brazzadog-at-aol.com writes: (better) >> It also shows something called "taxable horsepower"(whatever that is) of 53.27. << Yea the manufacturers have really sophisticated engine dynometers. They can motor the engine with an really big electric motor and measure the pumping losses and parasitic friction. The test 360 took 53.27 HP to turn= at an unspecified RPM. Another way of putting it is the test 360 had to make 53 HP just to overcome the internal losses before it could make even= 1 HP at the flywheel/flexplate. >> = IVO 14* 74' BTDC IVC 68* 75' ABDC Duration 263* 49' EVO 56* 77' BBDC EVO 56* 75' ATDC Duration 293* 52' Overlap 71* 49' I don't see anything about Lobe Seperation Angle and don't know how to calculate it. I'll bet Mr. Vizard's book I just bought would tell me though. = << Yes, I calculated the LSA assuming symmetrical lobes. On the '71 cam specs. above, the LSA would be way, way, out at 153 degrees or so. I'll t= ry to remember to model the '71 cam this weekend and we'll see what it does.= It may not be as bad as it looks thanks to the 360's decent rod to stroke= ratio which holds the piston dwell time up around TDC for a much longer time than say a 401 or a SB Chevy 350 with 5.7" rods. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 17-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:02:08 EST From: UrbFarmer-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: RE: loving the FSJ commute... A guy at work today asked me how my FSJ is doing - he figures I should be driving some new Expedition or something........So.....I told him that it worried me lately that every now and then the Rez Runner wants to pull over to the right or left when I'm going down the street..... He said, "Really? Now why do you suppose it does that?" I said, "I dunno, but it always happens when I'm passing a gas station!" - --Vince '81 Wag In a message dated 2/16/00 9:09:59 AM Central Standard Time, jcjones-at-goldencomputerservice.com writes: > Wow, I wish I could get even close to 13mpg.. > > JC Jones :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of > john > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 12:42 AM > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: loving the FSJ commute... > > > I'm really enjoying the ride to and from work... It just > keeps getting better and better... ;) I really liked my > Mercedes, great ride, excellent handling, good fuel economy... but > the silly thing was pretty close to the ground... Funny, I'm > afraid of heights, but I love driving my FSJ... :) > > The ride isn't as good, but the view is so much better. It's > nice having the fuel gauge move at a slow rate in an FSJ... I'm > not sure what my mileage is, it's probably in the 13 to 14mpg range, > not as good as it should be, but the timing still isn't correct and > the carb is too rich... > > > later, > john ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:02:12 EST From: UrbFarmer-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Oil and Water pump Advice Answers from Vince to a message dated 2/16/00 8:38:38 PM Central Standard Time, mbalea-at-hotmail.com writes: > What is wrong with the water pump? Noisy! *No noise at this time, still quiet, no leaks, pumps good, just old and the pully moved when I tightened the alternator belt. > Make sure that the clutch fan is still sound.... after 7-10 years i would > replace it, so the fan does not kiss the radiator and in the process stab a > few rows.... you can always get that radiator epoxy. * Fan clutch seem to be good, very tight and works well. > The noisy water pump can last some times... but then you do not hear the > other noises! If you have no a/c it takes 45-60 min to replace. > > As for the oil pressure.... it is the usual disease, the voltage regulator > in the gas gauge, the oil sender or the oil gauge or the main bearings. *Putting a new sender on this weekend. > Been there done it. But at 40 psi -which speed what gearing do you have, > which oil grade ? Can you shake yur crank... *This is 40 psi at any speed greater than an idle. I've got a new oil pump kit and thinking about putting it in. Not sure though. Running 20W50 right now (in the chicago winter) and that seems to help. Haven't tried shaking the crank.......Do you mean just grab it and try to move it around? - ---Vince > Michel > 74 wag ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:22:46 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: RE: loving the FSJ commute... At 10:02 PM 2/17/00 EST, UrbFarmer-at-aol.com wrote: >A guy at work today asked me how my FSJ is doing - he figures I should be >driving some new Expedition or something........So.....I told him that it >worried me lately that every now and then the Rez Runner wants to pull over >to the right or left when I'm going down the street..... He said, "Really? >Now why do you suppose it does that?" I said, "I dunno, but it always >happens when I'm passing a gas station!" >--Vince >'81 Wag ROFL... you had me going... I was waiting for the punchline... and it was there... bravo! I read today that gas will be hitting $2/gal for regular unleaded by July in Washington State. My last tank (or should that be bowl full) for superdawg was at $1.38/gal. I've got no car payments, two reliable jeeps and figure gas is still cheaper than car payments... I'd have to spend an awful lot on gas to pay $40,000 in 5 or 6 years... Although I've heard of 7 year payment plans!!! My goodness, home mortgages aren't much longer than that. :) I'm convinced, after 11 FSJ's and 5 xj's, that the 6 cylinders are absolutely the best, and very reliable... :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #734 *************************