From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Feb 18 13:26:31 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, February 18 2000 Volume 01 : Number 735 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: 360 stroker fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque fsj: RE: Re: Quadratrac Questions... Re: fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Re: fsj: RE: Re: Quadratrac Questions... fsj: 12.76 mpg fsj: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? Re: fsj: 360 stroker fsj: Re: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:42:09 -0700 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: 360 stroker OK, here is a question for you motor heads out there: is it possible to us a 401 crank and rods with 360 pistons and make a "383" AMC? Or since all the V8 blocks are the same, is there enough meat in the cylinder walls to bore a 360 block out to take 401 pistons, and use the whole 401 crank/rods/pistons set? kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:50:25 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... At 09:29 PM 2/17/00 PST, Neil Kapperman wrote: "Neil Kapperman" >Got a question for you... > >I heard once that one could use standard non-detergent 10W30 motor oil in >the Quadratrac cases... (1976 Cherokee SC w/360 TH400 and BW 1339) Is this >true or do I have to actually buy the high ($10 a quart) dealer stuff? > >My last Quadratrac I had I used motor oil, but I believe it had the part >time conversion in it. > >Talk atcha soon... >>Neil >______________________________________________________ > I know we've discussed this a number of times on several of the FSJ lists. :) I even looked into a synthetic solution to the problem. If memory serves me correctly the only answer is to buy the $9 a quart stuff made for the QT. I vaguely recall something that would work, or maybe it was a source for the stuff... Either way, your best bet is to use the stuff designed for it or you risk damaging the friction cones... I'm cc'ing the fsj list on digest.net just in case a cure has been found and my eyes glazed over as it passed before me on the screen... ;) Out of the 2 or 3 Borg Warner Quadratrac unit's I've had I never had to do anything with them... didn't keep 'em long enough. :) One of them did have the conversion... I prefer the 80 and up cases, or the Dana 20s. I would love to lay my hands on a NP242, have a friend holding an NP219 for me... Otherwise, I'm quite happy with my NP208 in my 83 J10 Stepside. My little wagoneer is sporting the NP242, which I really think is about the best xfr case a guy could have... especially if it had the 4:1 and SYE kits... ;) ttyl, john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:45:51 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque In a message dated 2/17/2000 8:16:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: > Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:00:11 -0500 > From: Michael Baxter (snip) > Yea the manufacturers have really sophisticated engine dynometers. They > can motor the engine with an really big electric motor and measure the > pumping losses and parasitic friction. The test 360 took 53.27 HP to turn= > at an unspecified RPM. Another way of putting it is the test 360 had to > make 53 HP just to overcome the internal losses before it could make even= > 1 > HP at the flywheel/flexplate. Wow. That seems like alot of intenal resistance. I wonder if the moving parts are that tight or is it just the weight of the parts? Does seem like it takes that much to turn the crank with a wrench, but I don't know how torque on the wrench relates to hp, if that's possible. Seems like it ought to be but it's been too long since I took Statics and Dynamics. (snip) > Yes, I calculated the LSA assuming symmetrical lobes. On the '71 cam > specs. above, the LSA would be way, way, out at 153 degrees or so. I'll t= > ry > to remember to model the '71 cam this weekend and we'll see what it does.= > > It may not be as bad as it looks thanks to the 360's decent rod to stroke= > > ratio which holds the piston dwell time up around TDC for a much longer > time than say a 401 or a SB Chevy 350 with 5.7" rods. It would be interesting to see how the '71 compares. I wish I had a better handle on the related dynamics as the cam does it's thing. It's hard to put it all together in my head. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:17:09 -0700 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: Re: Quadratrac Questions... Absolutely do not use anything other than the Chrysler Quadratrac Lube in a BW-1339 QT Transfer Case unless you want to be rebuilding your case (Don't ask me how I know). However, if you do a PT conversion on the case then you can use Auto Transmission Fluid. My opinion is that if you take care of your QT, it's a very good TC and I have been very happy with all the ones I have had. JC Jones :) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 10:50 PM To: Neil Kapperman Cc: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... At 09:29 PM 2/17/00 PST, Neil Kapperman wrote: "Neil Kapperman" >Got a question for you... > >I heard once that one could use standard non-detergent 10W30 motor oil in >the Quadratrac cases... (1976 Cherokee SC w/360 TH400 and BW 1339) Is this >true or do I have to actually buy the high ($10 a quart) dealer stuff? > >My last Quadratrac I had I used motor oil, but I believe it had the part >time conversion in it. > >Talk atcha soon... >>Neil >______________________________________________________ > I know we've discussed this a number of times on several of the FSJ lists. :) I even looked into a synthetic solution to the problem. If memory serves me correctly the only answer is to buy the $9 a quart stuff made for the QT. I vaguely recall something that would work, or maybe it was a source for the stuff... Either way, your best bet is to use the stuff designed for it or you risk damaging the friction cones... I'm cc'ing the fsj list on digest.net just in case a cure has been found and my eyes glazed over as it passed before me on the screen... ;) Out of the 2 or 3 Borg Warner Quadratrac unit's I've had I never had to do anything with them... didn't keep 'em long enough. :) One of them did have the conversion... I prefer the 80 and up cases, or the Dana 20s. I would love to lay my hands on a NP242, have a friend holding an NP219 for me... Otherwise, I'm quite happy with my NP208 in my 83 J10 Stepside. My little wagoneer is sporting the NP242, which I really think is about the best xfr case a guy could have... especially if it had the 4:1 and SYE kits... ;) ttyl, john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:15:54 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque >> pumping losses and parasitic friction. The test 360 took 53.27 HP to turn= >> at an unspecified RPM. Another way of putting it is the test 360 had to >> make 53 HP just to overcome the internal losses before it could make even 1 >> HP at the flywheel/flexplate. Wait a minute... Am I reading this right? It takes 53HP of a 360's output to make 1hp? What do comparable engines require? Say a Chevy 350, or a 4.2 or 4.0L jeep engine? john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:17:02 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Re: Quadratrac Questions... Neil, I think we have our answer... This just in from my friend, who I shipped a TH400 and Quadratrac to... ;) john At 11:17 PM 2/17/00 -0700, JC Jones wrote: >Absolutely do not use anything other than the Chrysler Quadratrac Lube in a >BW-1339 QT Transfer Case unless you want to be rebuilding your case (Don't >ask me how I know). However, if you do a PT conversion on the case then you >can use Auto Transmission Fluid. My opinion is that if you take care of >your QT, it's a very good TC and I have been very happy with all the ones I >have had. > >JC Jones :) > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of >john >Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 10:50 PM >To: Neil Kapperman >Cc: fsj-at-digest.net >Subject: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... > > >At 09:29 PM 2/17/00 PST, Neil Kapperman wrote: >"Neil Kapperman" >>Got a question for you... >> >>I heard once that one could use standard non-detergent 10W30 motor oil in >>the Quadratrac cases... (1976 Cherokee SC w/360 TH400 and BW 1339) Is this >>true or do I have to actually buy the high ($10 a quart) dealer stuff? >> >>My last Quadratrac I had I used motor oil, but I believe it had the part >>time conversion in it. >> >>Talk atcha soon... >>>Neil >>______________________________________________________ >> > > >I know we've discussed this a number of times on several of the FSJ lists. >:) >I even looked into a synthetic solution to the problem. If memory serves >me correctly the only answer is to buy the $9 a quart stuff made for the >QT. I vaguely recall something that would work, or maybe it was a source >for the stuff... Either way, your best bet is to use the stuff designed >for it or you risk damaging the friction cones... > >I'm cc'ing the fsj list on digest.net just in case a cure has been found >and my eyes glazed over as it passed before me on the screen... ;) > >Out of the 2 or 3 Borg Warner Quadratrac unit's I've had I never had >to do anything with them... didn't keep 'em long enough. :) One of them >did have the conversion... > >I prefer the 80 and up cases, or the Dana 20s. I would love to lay >my hands on a NP242, have a friend holding an NP219 for me... Otherwise, >I'm quite happy with my NP208 in my 83 J10 Stepside. My little wagoneer >is sporting the NP242, which I really think is about the best xfr case >a guy could have... especially if it had the 4:1 and SYE kits... ;) > >ttyl, >john > >----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com > ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >----------------------------------------------------- > > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:51:18 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: 12.76 mpg JC, feel better now? I estimated the delta in miles based on tire size change and calculated my running average... getting only 12.76 mpg... The Holley carb has to go. Need to measure the Clifford manifold to see if it'll accept the stock bbd, or consider buying a used weber. Also have another idea, stay tuned... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:00:43 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? Jim Blair just dropped by and we were running around with tape measure in hand measuring trannies and transfer cases and eventually popped the hood on Superdawg... Anyway, the crazy idea came up to use the head from my 4.0L on my 4.2L engine... I've got a complete 4.0L with computer, wiring harness, and all the manifolds... So, exactly how crazy is this idea? (No fair answering Jim, I already heard your input... ;) What's even crazier/better is I can eventually take the flywheel off and replace it with the flex plate from the 4.0L and use the Aisin Warner AT... actually, I'll need to do that right way unless I get that gizmo for the front of the engine for the Crank Position sensor... I'll also need to use the 4.0L distributer, right??? will it work? I'm thinking that my 4.2L engine might be a better base to do this. 1) it has lower mileage only 130,000 versus an guesstimated 140 ?? to 170k ?? on the 4.0L (not a problem as it was well cared for and mine has 198k on it and is going strong...) 2) it already has the correct motor mounts and plumbing setup for the radiator 3) I'm not sure but the 4.2L bottom end and pistons might be better than the 4.0L... heavier duty??? I'm guessing on this... please enlighten me. :) I'm after fuel economy... Maybe swapping everything out for the 4.0L aisin warner setup with an xj xfr case will be the simplest thing to do... Just thinking how swapping heads might be easier... I suppose I should get a better carb first... Just need to find a small one that'll bolt up to the Clifford manifold... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:41:07 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... A: You can use 10W30 in the PT converted QT, and the Jeep manual calls for it in the NP219 ('80-'81 QT) but the manuals were WRONG! Later manuals, and New Process put out a TSB saying that ATF was the right stuff! Check with Crown Automotive for the BW QT fish oil. Tonight, I measured the 998 (23 spline) and AW4 (John's 21 spline version. Anyone know how long the adapter sleeve housing is on a 23 spline one?) tonight, and they were 22 1/2" and 25" respectively. There has been a little chat on the Stroker list about building the AW4 to handle maximum stress for strokers (using parts from Lexus AW4 trannies and HD aftermarket stuff) so I will be taking the plunge and putting one in Elmo during the refurb. {Note to John: How far is it from the end of the adapter housing of the AW4 to the center of the tranny mount bolt holes? That was the one thing I forgot to measure because we were gabbing.} I forgot to take my pill this morning (which makes me more fuzzy headed than normal, and gabbier, if that's possible) and I forgot tons of other things today, but fortunately numbers [measurements] stick fairly well. A 21 spline NP231 was 17" to the slip yoke and a NP229 is 18" (plus the yoke to Ujoint). NP208 is how long? (I'll measure tomorrow) {Note to John again: Your T-5 is how long, taking into account for angles of the tape measure?} The 242HD from a Hummer is the one to have! 2.5" chain as opposed to the 1" wide XJ 242 chain! Neil Kapperman wrote: Got a question for you... I heard once that one could use standard non-detergent 10W30 motor oil in the Quadratrac cases... (1976 Cherokee SC w/360 TH400 and BW 1339) Is this true or do I have to actually buy the high ($10 a quart) dealer stuff? My last Quadratrac I had I used motor oil, but I believe it had the part time conversion in it. Talk atcha soon... Neil ______________________________________________ I know we've discussed this a number of times on several of the FSJ lists. :) I even looked into a synthetic solution to the problem. If memory serves me correctly the only answer is to buy the $9 a quart stuff made for the QT. I vaguely recall something that would work, or maybe it was a source for the stuff... Either way, your best bet is to use the stuff designed for it or you risk damaging the friction cones... I'm cc'ing the fsj list on digest.net just in case a cure has been found and my eyes glazed over as it passed before me on the screen... ;) Out of the 2 or 3 Borg Warner Quadratrac unit's I've had I never had to do anything with them... didn't keep 'em long enough. :) One of them did have the conversion... I prefer the 80 and up cases, or the Dana 20s. I would love to lay my hands on a NP242, have a friend holding an NP219 for me... =A0 Otherwise, I'm quite happy with my NP208 in my 83 J10 Stepside. My little wagoneer is sporting the NP242, which I really think is about the best xfr case a guy could have... especially if it had the 4:1 and SYE kits... ;) ttyl, john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:46:36 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg A: Shoot! Shoulda asked me while I was there! I could have told you if it was close enough to work! I have a spare intake if you want to swap, and a BBD carb (I'm going propane, because it's 28 cents a litre in Canada, and a stroker will be high enough compression to run just fine on it. I need to degrease Elmo's motor and double check the numbers, because someone put the bug in my ear that the reason the motor has so much jam is it may already be a stroker! Would sure explain outpulling a 401 QT Wagoneer! (he didn't have low range though! 8^P) John wrote: JC, feel better now? I estimated the delta in miles based on tire size change and calculated my running average... getting only 12.76 mpg... The Holley carb has to go. Need to measure the Clifford manifold to see if it'll accept the stock bbd, or consider buying a used weber. Also have another idea, stay tuned... john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:55:38 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? A: I was just going to suggest talking to Alan (built a stroker with Renix) and Frank Swygert of AIM (American Independent Muscle) magazine about their conversions. John wrote: Jim Blair just dropped by and we were running around with tape measure in hand measuring trannies and transfer cases and eventually popped the hood on Superdawg... Anyway, the crazy idea came up to use the head from my 4.0L on my 4.2L engine... I've got a complete 4.0L with computer, wiring harness, and all the manifolds... So, exactly how crazy is this idea? (No fair answering Jim, I already heard your input... ;) What's even crazier/better is I can eventually take the flywheel off and replace it with the flex plate from the 4.0L and use the Aisin Warner AT... actually, I'll need to do that right way unless I get that gizmo for the front of the engine for the Crank Position sensor... I'll also need to use the 4.0L distributer, right??? will it work? I'm thinking that my 4.2L engine might be a better base to do this. 1) it has lower mileage only 130,000 versus an guesstimated 140 ?? to 170k ?? on the 4.0L (not a problem as it was well cared for and mine has 198k on it and is going strong...) 2) it already has the correct motor mounts and plumbing setup for the radiator 3) I'm not sure but the 4.2L bottom end and pistons might be better than the 4.0L... heavier duty??? I'm guessing on this... please enlighten me. :) I'm after fuel economy... Maybe swapping everything out for the 4.0L aisin warner setup with an xj xfr case will be the simplest thing to do... Just thinking how swapping heads might be easier... I suppose I should get a better carb first... =A0 Just need to find a small one that'll bolt up to the Clifford manifold... john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:11:08 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 360 stroker A: The 360 CANNOT be bored enough to go 401 (401 block is special cast). People are putting 401 cranks in 360 blocks, and some other rods and pistons (I forgot that part, since I don't pay a lot of attention to the V8 stuff anymore) I do know where there is a 401 for only $300 (in a nearby wrecking yard) that was running but quit (I think it's the stupid Presto-no-lite distributor) Kim=A0Smith wrote: OK, here is a question for you motor heads out there: is it possible to us a 401 crank and rods with 360 pistons and make a "383" AMC? Or since all the V8 blocks are the same, is there enough meat in the cylinder walls to bore a 360 block out to take 401 pistons, and use the whole 401 crank/rods/pistons set? kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:14:09 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Dillon Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update Hi Tacoma, Good to see you are still kicking around. But what were you thinking when you stated "everything fits right, no adapters/welding/rewiring/" I love my jeeps but on all of mine nothing fits right and Jeep used more "stock" adapters than eveyone else combined ! Lets not go in to what I think of Jeeps stock wiring with factory duct tape. Later Mike D. Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:28:22 -0700 From: "Tacoma White" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update > A Chevy 350 wouldn't be a bad way of going if you can get one with fuel > injection. Gahhhhh! John, what's come over you!! AMC forever! I am stunned! The Jeepmeister RECOMMENDING a heart transplant for that most venerable of American motor vehicles! just kidding. IMO, a Chevy swap is more trouble than it's worth. Rebuild the AMC, so it DOESN'T leak, get some EFI on there and boom you're in like Flynn, everything fits right, no adapters/welding/rewiring/etc required. Unless you've got a built 350 w/harness sitting around, in which case it might be cheaper. But I doubt you do, right? and let it be said now that I am putting some GM product, either an EFI 350 crate motor, or a 6.2diesel w/6.5 turbo on it, into my Kaiser M725. But it's a lot harder to justify keeping (or in my case, reinstalling) an engine no one has used for 30 years that has no power at all (230 tornado). Not for a 6300#, 8ft green brick anyway. =) on the insurance front, my people are p***ed, the girl's phone is disconnected and she has no current insurance. They are considering suing her personally if I want to fix my bumper, which I could really care less about. It's only bent, and trucks are meant to be bent. Woulda happened in Moab sooner or later anyway. But I'm glad they don't want to pay. John, go wash your mouth out w/soap and never speak such an obscenity again! hahahh in UT Tacoma 78 Cherokee Chief 67 Kaiser M725 "Gigantor the Heep" icq 5058954 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #735 *************************