From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Feb 18 13:26:20 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, February 18 2000 Volume 01 : Number 736 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re:fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg fsj: RE: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... fsj: RE:Quadratrack questions Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg fsj: the touch Re: fsj: NP xfr cases and ATF FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:39:05 -0500 From: Robert Barry Subject: Re:fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque >> Yea the manufacturers have really sophisticated engine dynometers. They >> can motor the engine with an really big electric motor and measure the >> pumping losses and parasitic friction. The test 360 took 53.27 HP to turn= >> at an unspecified RPM. Another way of putting it is the test 360 had to >> make 53 HP just to overcome the internal losses before it could make even= [snip] >Wow. That seems like alot of intenal resistance. I wonder if the moving >parts are that tight or is it just the weight of the parts? Does seem like >it takes that much to turn the crank with a wrench, but I don't know how >torque on the wrench relates to hp, if that's possible. Seems like it ought >to be but it's been too long since I took Statics and Dynamics. Taxable horsepower doesn't actually have anything to do with the power output or friction losses of an engine; it is a figure calculated from the bore size and number of cylinders of the engine, originally for taxation purposes in England. You can find more information about it at the following site: http://www.singercars.com/racrate.html I have no idea why US auto manufacturers included this figure in their owners manuals, but my '69-'71 owner's manuals all show this rating. As for the hp losses from friction, they are substantial, and can easily equal 50+hp, especially when you add in accessories. ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 100 08:49:45 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg John, Have you given any thought to switching to the stock alum 2bbl manifold? You might be very happy with it. When I switched from the clifford manifold to the stock 1bbl manifold on my ford 300 I6, I was VERY happy! - -brad John writes: > The Holley carb has to go. Need to measure the Clifford manifold > to see if it'll accept the stock bbd, or consider buying a used weber. > > Also have another idea, stay tuned... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:54:52 -0700 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: 12.76 mpg Well, I would be pretty happy if I could manage 12.76 . I am running 33x12.50 tires, 3.54 gears, and a 401 and I get about 7mpg. But, I can take a camaro off the line and stay ahead for at least 20 or 30 feet. JC Jones :) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 12:51 AM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: fsj: 12.76 mpg JC, feel better now? I estimated the delta in miles based on tire size change and calculated my running average... getting only 12.76 mpg... The Holley carb has to go. Need to measure the Clifford manifold to see if it'll accept the stock bbd, or consider buying a used weber. Also have another idea, stay tuned... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:46:10 -0700 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... Then why did NP specify 10W/30 right on the tag on the transfer case??? Mine has 130,000+ now, had never had a change of lube since the factory, [one owner, and I have the records], what I drained out wasn't thin and red, I put synthetic 10W/30, and have had zero problems. I suspect that ATF is OK in those '80 & '81 units [BTW, the 208's for those years spec.the same lube], but isn't in later ones, and NP wanted to be sure that the 10W/30 didn't get into later boxes. kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Blair" To: "Neil Kapperman" ; ; ; <1FSJ-at-onelist.com> Sent: Friday, 18 February, 2000 01:41 Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... > A: You can use 10W30 in the PT converted QT, and the Jeep manual calls > for it in the NP219 ('80-'81 QT) but the manuals were WRONG! Later > manuals, and New Process put out a TSB saying that ATF was the right > stuff! > Check with Crown Automotive for the BW QT fish oil. > Tonight, I measured the 998 (23 spline) and AW4 (John's 21 spline > version. Anyone know how long the adapter sleeve housing is on a 23 > spline one?) tonight, and they were 22 1/2" and 25" respectively. > There has been a little chat on the Stroker list about building the > AW4 to handle maximum stress for strokers (using parts from Lexus AW4 > trannies and HD aftermarket stuff) so I will be taking the plunge and > putting one in Elmo during the refurb. > > {Note to John: How far is it from the end of the adapter housing of the > AW4 to the center of the tranny mount bolt holes? That was the one thing > I forgot to measure because we were gabbing.} > I forgot to take my pill this morning (which makes me more fuzzy > headed than normal, and gabbier, if that's possible) and I forgot tons > of other things today, but fortunately numbers [measurements] stick > fairly well. > > A 21 spline NP231 was 17" to the slip yoke and a NP229 is 18" (plus the > yoke to Ujoint). NP208 is how long? (I'll measure tomorrow) > > {Note to John again: Your T-5 is how long, taking into account for > angles of the tape measure?} The 242HD from a Hummer is the one to have! > 2.5" chain as opposed to the 1" wide XJ 242 chain! > > Neil Kapperman wrote: > Got a question for you... > I heard once that one could use standard non-detergent 10W30 motor oil > in the Quadratrac cases... (1976 Cherokee SC w/360 TH400 and BW 1339) Is > this true or do I have to actually buy the high ($10 a quart) dealer > stuff? > My last Quadratrac I had I used motor oil, but I believe it had the part > time conversion in it. > Talk atcha soon... > Neil > ______________________________________________ > I know we've discussed this a number of times on several of the FSJ > lists. :) I even looked into a synthetic solution to the problem. If > memory serves me correctly the only answer is to buy the $9 a quart > stuff made for the QT. I vaguely recall something that would work, or > maybe it was a source for the stuff... Either way, your best bet is to > use the stuff designed for it or you risk damaging the friction cones... > I'm cc'ing the fsj list on digest.net just in case a cure has been found > and my eyes glazed over as it passed before me on the screen... ;) > Out of the 2 or 3 Borg Warner Quadratrac unit's I've had I never had to > do anything with them... didn't keep 'em long enough. :) One of them did > have the conversion... > I prefer the 80 and up cases, or the Dana 20s. I would love to lay my > hands on a NP242, have a friend holding an NP219 for me... > Otherwise, I'm quite happy with my NP208 in my 83 J10 Stepside. My > little wagoneer is sporting the NP242, which I really think is about the > best xfr case a guy could have... especially if it had the 4:1 and SYE > kits... ;) > ttyl, > john > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false > ================================= > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:49:48 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg At 12:46 AM 2/18/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: Shoot! Shoulda asked me while I was there! I could have told you if >it was close enough to work! I have a spare intake if you want to swap, >and a BBD carb (I'm going propane, because it's 28 cents a litre in I'd rather not give up the Clifford intake... I guess I could build my own adapter for it... John Bushnell in Montana has offered me a BBD as well, but trying yours on for size would save us postage and time... If you have a core, drop it on by with the padded steering wheel Sunday and I'll leave that nice "new" black one on the bench in plain sight for ya in case I'm not around... :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 100 09:52:44 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... 10W30 is not a mistake. They just changed it to ATF after a year or two. Probably to help the MPG. - -brad > Then why did NP specify 10W/30 right on the tag on the transfer case??? Mine > has 130,000+ now, had never had a change of lube since the factory, [one > owner, and I have the records], what I drained out wasn't thin and red, I > put synthetic 10W/30, and have had zero problems. I suspect that ATF is OK > in those '80 & '81 units [BTW, the 208's for those years spec.the same > lube], but isn't in later ones, and NP wanted to be sure that the 10W/30 > didn't get into later boxes. > > kim > '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Blair" > To: "Neil Kapperman" ; ; > ; <1FSJ-at-onelist.com> > Sent: Friday, 18 February, 2000 01:41 > Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... > > > > A: You can use 10W30 in the PT converted QT, and the Jeep manual calls > > for it in the NP219 ('80-'81 QT) but the manuals were WRONG! Later > > manuals, and New Process put out a TSB saying that ATF was the right > > stuff! > > Check with Crown Automotive for the BW QT fish oil. > > Tonight, I measured the 998 (23 spline) and AW4 (John's 21 spline > > version. Anyone know how long the adapter sleeve housing is on a 23 > > spline one?) tonight, and they were 22 1/2" and 25" respectively. > > There has been a little chat on the Stroker list about building the > > AW4 to handle maximum stress for strokers (using parts from Lexus AW4 > > trannies and HD aftermarket stuff) so I will be taking the plunge and > > putting one in Elmo during the refurb. > > > > {Note to John: How far is it from the end of the adapter housing of the > > AW4 to the center of the tranny mount bolt holes? That was the one thing > > I forgot to measure because we were gabbing.} > > I forgot to take my pill this morning (which makes me more fuzzy > > headed than normal, and gabbier, if that's possible) and I forgot tons > > of other things today, but fortunately numbers [measurements] stick > > fairly well. > > > > A 21 spline NP231 was 17" to the slip yoke and a NP229 is 18" (plus the > > yoke to Ujoint). NP208 is how long? (I'll measure tomorrow) > > > > {Note to John again: Your T-5 is how long, taking into account for > > angles of the tape measure?} The 242HD from a Hummer is the one to have! > > 2.5" chain as opposed to the 1" wide XJ 242 chain! > > > > Neil Kapperman wrote: > > Got a question for you... > > I heard once that one could use standard non-detergent 10W30 motor oil > > in the Quadratrac cases... (1976 Cherokee SC w/360 TH400 and BW 1339) Is > > this true or do I have to actually buy the high ($10 a quart) dealer > > stuff? > > My last Quadratrac I had I used motor oil, but I believe it had the part > > time conversion in it. > > Talk atcha soon... > > Neil > > ______________________________________________ > > I know we've discussed this a number of times on several of the FSJ > > lists. :) I even looked into a synthetic solution to the problem. If > > memory serves me correctly the only answer is to buy the $9 a quart > > stuff made for the QT. I vaguely recall something that would work, or > > maybe it was a source for the stuff... Either way, your best bet is to > > use the stuff designed for it or you risk damaging the friction cones... > > I'm cc'ing the fsj list on digest.net just in case a cure has been found > > and my eyes glazed over as it passed before me on the screen... ;) > > Out of the 2 or 3 Borg Warner Quadratrac unit's I've had I never had to > > do anything with them... didn't keep 'em long enough. :) One of them did > > have the conversion... > > I prefer the 80 and up cases, or the Dana 20s. I would love to lay my > > hands on a NP242, have a friend holding an NP219 for me... > > Otherwise, I'm quite happy with my NP208 in my 83 J10 Stepside. My > > little wagoneer is sporting the NP242, which I really think is about the > > best xfr case a guy could have... especially if it had the 4:1 and SYE > > kits... ;) > > ttyl, ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:57:30 -0700 From: "evanlee" Subject: fsj: RE:Quadratrack questions >Absolutely do not use anything other than the Chrysler Quadratrac Lube in a >BW-1339 QT Transfer Case unless you want to be rebuilding your case (Don't >ask me how I know). However, if you do a PT conversion on the case then you >can use Auto Transmission Fluid. My opinion is that if you take care of >your QT, it's a very good TC and I have been very happy with all the ones I >have had. >JC Jones :) I would agree with JC Jones on this on this, Except for the that my local Daimler/ Chrysler/Jeep dealer is particularly ignorant of FSJ's, and Quadratrac especially. I went there for Quadratrac fluid about a 6 months ago, and after I explained to them what I was talking about, they told me it was no longer available and tried to sell me some $15 per quart limited slip rear end lube. Combining that and a few other unsuccessful attempts at buying parts for my Wagoneers, I gave up on Daimler-Chrysler as a source. My local dealership's particular disinterest in my request, and the amount of effort it took to convince them that my vehicles actually exist, made me promise myself I would never buy a new Chrysler product as long as I live. And particularly I will own no Chrysler Jeeps! Anyhow, done with the rant now. One other legitimate source for Quadratrac fluid is Crown Auto parts. They are a wholesaler that deals with independent auto parts stores and 4-wheel drive shops. They have the same stuff packaged under their label, but you have to find a parts house that deals with them to get it, like the aformentioned 4-wheel drive shops. Some shops have it one the shelves, others, like in my town, have to order it. I am very happy with the performance of my '73 Waggy with the Q-trac also. I have been actually amazed by it's capabilities. Cary Nickel Bullhead City,. Arizona '66 Super Wagoneer '69 Wagoneer '73 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:06:42 -0700 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg John, my first car was 1961 Ford, a clapped out ex-taxicab, with an FMX tranny, and a transplanted 300cube I-6 from a PU [the stock little six had died]. I put a Clifford header and 4v manifold on it, topped with a Holley 390cfm 4bbl, and it got great mileage, much better than stock. If that pea-shooter Holley is still available, it might be the ticket. kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: "James Blair" Cc: Sent: Friday, 18 February, 2000 10:49 Subject: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg > At 12:46 AM 2/18/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: > >A: Shoot! Shoulda asked me while I was there! I could have told you if > >it was close enough to work! I have a spare intake if you want to swap, > >and a BBD carb (I'm going propane, because it's 28 cents a litre in > > I'd rather not give up the Clifford intake... I guess I could build > my own adapter for it... John Bushnell in Montana has offered me > a BBD as well, but trying yours on for size would save us postage > and time... > > If you have a core, drop it on by with the padded steering wheel Sunday > and I'll leave that nice "new" black one on the bench in plain sight > for ya in case I'm not around... :) > > john > ----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com > ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > ----------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 100 10:29:31 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg Its pretty easy to try! Give it a shot! Clifford is good stuff, but the stock AMC 2bbl manifold isn't bad either. AMC made several different 2bbl manifolds for the 258. My favorite is the alum one with the electric heater. My case is rather extream, but I doubled my mileage by going back to the stock setup. I have just as much power as I had before too, and it is much more drivable cold/warm at all RPMs. - -brad > At 08:49 AM 2/18/00 -0800, Brad Seevers wrote: > >John, > > > >Have you given any thought to switching to the stock alum 2bbl manifold? > >You might be very happy with it. > > > >When I switched from the clifford manifold to the stock 1bbl manifold on > >my ford 300 I6, I was VERY happy! > > serious? I thought Clifford stuff was highly desireable??? > > James, you got all that stuff handy, or is it still on Elmo? ;) Otherwise > I'll have to do some more horse trading with John Bushnell... ;) > > Either way, I want the maximum ecomomy I can get... kind of wished I'd > gone with 30x9.5's instead of 31s... oh well... > > john > > > > >-brad > > > >John writes: > > > >> The Holley carb has to go. Need to measure the Clifford manifold > >> to see if it'll accept the stock bbd, or consider buying a used weber. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:18:21 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: the touch at one of the fsj fests in snohomish we were noting that some folks have "the touch" when it comes to pulling stuff off or adjusting or connecting various components on an FSJ... we noted this while pulling off an FSJ windshield... I tell ya what, James came over last night, and with Superdawg in slumber mode, he made a tweak to my distributer timing that eliminated the pinging.... sure, Superdawg don't howl and growl quite like he did before, but I can drop 'im into 4th gear going up the Boeing Rec Center hill and it don't sound like a popcorn machine replaced the row o' pistons either... I even slowed down a bit on the Lowell-Larimer Road, let the slow poke ahead of me get way ahead, then nailed it... seemed like the power was still pretty good.... I think I'll run down and top of the tank and see if the mileage improves too... ;) thanx James, that was pretty cool... ;) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:43:01 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: NP xfr cases and ATF We've been down this road a few times... I used synthethic oil in Old Blue for a long time too, then switched to synthetic ATF, no difference in anything. :) Not sure why the manuals for 80/81 say oil, and then changing to ATF... ATF has more cleansing stuff in it and might help to reduce oxidation... maybe because it's thinner it's supposed to help fuel economy... I noticed no change... The basic determined rule is ATF into Aluminum Cased transfer cases that aren't the old Borg Warner QT's. ;) john At 10:46 AM 2/18/00 -0700, Kim Smith wrote: >Then why did NP specify 10W/30 right on the tag on the transfer case??? Mine >has 130,000+ now, had never had a change of lube since the factory, [one >owner, and I have the records], what I drained out wasn't thin and red, I >put synthetic 10W/30, and have had zero problems. I suspect that ATF is OK >in those '80 & '81 units [BTW, the 208's for those years spec.the same >lube], but isn't in later ones, and NP wanted to be sure that the 10W/30 >didn't get into later boxes. > >kim >'80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James Blair" >To: "Neil Kapperman" ; ; >; <1FSJ-at-onelist.com> >Sent: Friday, 18 February, 2000 01:41 >Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... > > >> A: You can use 10W30 in the PT converted QT, and the Jeep manual calls >> for it in the NP219 ('80-'81 QT) but the manuals were WRONG! Later >> manuals, and New Process put out a TSB saying that ATF was the right >> stuff! >> Check with Crown Automotive for the BW QT fish oil. >> Tonight, I measured the 998 (23 spline) and AW4 (John's 21 spline >> version. Anyone know how long the adapter sleeve housing is on a 23 >> spline one?) tonight, and they were 22 1/2" and 25" respectively. >> There has been a little chat on the Stroker list about building the >> AW4 to handle maximum stress for strokers (using parts from Lexus AW4 >> trannies and HD aftermarket stuff) so I will be taking the plunge and >> putting one in Elmo during the refurb. >> >> {Note to John: How far is it from the end of the adapter housing of the >> AW4 to the center of the tranny mount bolt holes? That was the one thing >> I forgot to measure because we were gabbing.} >> I forgot to take my pill this morning (which makes me more fuzzy >> headed than normal, and gabbier, if that's possible) and I forgot tons >> of other things today, but fortunately numbers [measurements] stick >> fairly well. >> >> A 21 spline NP231 was 17" to the slip yoke and a NP229 is 18" (plus the >> yoke to Ujoint). NP208 is how long? (I'll measure tomorrow) >> >> {Note to John again: Your T-5 is how long, taking into account for >> angles of the tape measure?} The 242HD from a Hummer is the one to have! >> 2.5" chain as opposed to the 1" wide XJ 242 chain! >> >> Neil Kapperman wrote: >> Got a question for you... >> I heard once that one could use standard non-detergent 10W30 motor oil >> in the Quadratrac cases... (1976 Cherokee SC w/360 TH400 and BW 1339) Is >> this true or do I have to actually buy the high ($10 a quart) dealer >> stuff? >> My last Quadratrac I had I used motor oil, but I believe it had the part >> time conversion in it. >> Talk atcha soon... >> Neil >> ______________________________________________ >> I know we've discussed this a number of times on several of the FSJ >> lists. :) I even looked into a synthetic solution to the problem. If >> memory serves me correctly the only answer is to buy the $9 a quart >> stuff made for the QT. I vaguely recall something that would work, or >> maybe it was a source for the stuff... Either way, your best bet is to >> use the stuff designed for it or you risk damaging the friction cones... >> I'm cc'ing the fsj list on digest.net just in case a cure has been found >> and my eyes glazed over as it passed before me on the screen... ;) >> Out of the 2 or 3 Borg Warner Quadratrac unit's I've had I never had to >> do anything with them... didn't keep 'em long enough. :) One of them did >> have the conversion... >> I prefer the 80 and up cases, or the Dana 20s. I would love to lay my >> hands on a NP242, have a friend holding an NP219 for me... >> Otherwise, I'm quite happy with my NP208 in my 83 J10 Stepside. My >> little wagoneer is sporting the NP242, which I really think is about the >> best xfr case a guy could have... especially if it had the 4:1 and SYE >> kits... ;) >> ttyl, >> john >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr >> http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: >> http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false >> ================================= >> >> > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #736 *************************