From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Feb 18 13:26:02 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, February 18 2000 Volume 01 : Number 737 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg fsj: Re: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: Re: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: the touch Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... fsj: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque fsj: 360 stroker fsj: 360 stroker Re: fsj: Re: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque RE: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... Re: fsj: Re: 12.76 mpg RE: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... Re: fsj: Re: 12.76 mpg FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:45:42 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg At 11:06 AM 2/18/00 -0700, Kim Smith wrote: >John, my first car was 1961 Ford, a clapped out ex-taxicab, with an FMX >tranny, and a transplanted 300cube I-6 from a PU [the stock little six had >died]. I put a Clifford header and 4v manifold on it, topped with a Holley >390cfm 4bbl, and it got great mileage, much better than stock. If that >pea-shooter Holley is still available, it might be the ticket. > >kim >'80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 Actually the 390cfm Holley is... $375. The problem is it's still a Holley, with all the inherited problems related to blowing power valves and so on... I'm still looking/thinking and if my sciatic nerve doesn't simmer down I'll have the 4.0L automatic conversion done instead of messign with the carb... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:37:40 EST From: OrigamiTB-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: 12.76 mpg In a message dated 00-02-18 11:15:39 EST, James Blair wrote: > I'm going propane, because it's 28 cents a litre in Canada, > and a stroker will be high enough compression to run just fine on it. A cabbie in Victoria told me that a lot of the taxis there (including his) had been converted to propane for that reason, and that the engines lasted much longer than with gasoline. ++ Cornel Ormsby ++ not leaving Las Vegas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:12:54 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg At 08:49 AM 2/18/00 -0800, Brad Seevers wrote: >John, > >Have you given any thought to switching to the stock alum 2bbl manifold? >You might be very happy with it. > >When I switched from the clifford manifold to the stock 1bbl manifold on >my ford 300 I6, I was VERY happy! serious? I thought Clifford stuff was highly desireable??? James, you got all that stuff handy, or is it still on Elmo? ;) Otherwise I'll have to do some more horse trading with John Bushnell... ;) Either way, I want the maximum ecomomy I can get... kind of wished I'd gone with 30x9.5's instead of 31s... oh well... john > >-brad > >John writes: > >> The Holley carb has to go. Need to measure the Clifford manifold >> to see if it'll accept the stock bbd, or consider buying a used weber. >> >> Also have another idea, stay tuned... > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:43:41 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 12.76 mpg A: It's still on Elmo for now, but I plan to go LPG REAL quick! I'm trying to decide if OHG (over the Hill Gang) is still tops, or someone else is doing it better now. Any LPG lists around? Any OZ members? At 08:49 AM 2/18/00 -0800, Brad Seevers wrote: John, Have you given any thought to switching to the stock alum 2bbl manifold? You might be very happy with it. When I switched from the clifford manifold to the stock 1bbl manifold on my ford 300 I6, I was VERY happy! serious? I thought Clifford stuff was highly desireable??? James, you got all that stuff handy, or is it still on Elmo? ;) Otherwise I'll have to do some more horse trading with John Bushnell... ;) Either way, I want the maximum ecomomy I can get... kind of wished I'd gone with 30x9.5's instead of 31s... oh well... john - -brad John writes: The Holley carb has to go. Need to measure the Clifford manifold to see if it'll accept the stock bbd, or consider buying a used weber. Also have another idea, stay tuned... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:47:51 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 12.76 mpg A: The real nice thing about LPG is that the higher the compression, the better it runs! No ping problems up to 17:1 ratio (I used to convert those lame-o Olds diesel 350s. They stopped falling apart after that!) I wrote: I'm going propane, because it's 28 cents a litre in Canada, and a stroker will be high enough compression to run just fine on it. C wrote: A cabbie in Victoria told me that a lot of the taxis there (including his) had been converted to propane for that reason, and that the engines lasted much longer than with gasoline. ++ Cornel Ormsby ++ not leaving Las Vegas ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:55:55 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: the touch A: Not hard to see why I quit using a timing light huh? If this catches you before you fuel up, try mid grade and see if that perks it up a bit yet! PS: Arco gas sucks in these AMC sixes. Since you have a (toilet) Holey on there now, gas flushes down pretty easy anyway, but the cheaper gas plugs up the jets in BBDs. The other intake I have is the heated aluminum one. John wrote: at one of the fsj fests in snohomish we were noting that some folks have "the touch" when it comes to pulling stuff off or adjusting or connecting various components on an FSJ... we noted this while pulling off an FSJ windshield... I tell ya what, James came over last night, and with Superdawg in slumber mode, he made a tweak to my distributer timing that eliminated the pinging.... sure, Superdawg don't howl and growl quite like he did before, but I can drop 'im into 4th gear going up the Boeing Rec Center hill and it don't sound like a popcorn machine replaced the row o' pistons either... =A0 I even slowed down a bit on the Lowell-Larimer Road, let the slow poke ahead of me get way ahead, then nailed it... seemed like the power was still pretty good.... I think I'll run down and top of the tank and see if the mileage improves too... ;) thanx James, that was pretty cool... ;) john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:02:38 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... A: They changed the spec on it later. The ATF had higher detergents to keep it clean, plus people neglected to change it and it would break down faster than ATF (synthetics were just coming out then) You'll find that most NP219s that blew up had 10w/30 in them, and were used hard. Kim wrote: Then why did NP specify 10W/30 right on the tag on the transfer case??? Mine has 130,000+ now, had never had a change of lube since the factory, [one owner, and I have the records], what I drained out wasn't thin and red, I put synthetic 10W/30, and have had zero problems. I suspect that ATF is OK in those '80 & '81 units [BTW, the 208's for those years spec.the same lube], but isn't in later ones, and NP wanted to be sure that the 10W/30 didn't get into later boxes. kim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:10:51 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Brazzadog-at-aol.com writes: >> Wow. That seems like alot of intenal resistance. I wonder if the moving parts are that tight or is it just the weight of the parts? Does seem like it takes that much to turn the crank with a wrench, but I don't= know how torque on the wrench relates to hp, if that's possible. << Inertia plays a part (weight of the moving parts), but the big thing is the power it takes to compress the air/fuel on the compression stroke. An= d any place you have movement, you have friction. The biggest friction culprit is the pistons in the bores. The bigger the bore, the more surfac= e area on the rings and piston skirts you have in contact with the cylinder= walls. john writes: >> Wait a minute... Am I reading this right? It takes 53HP of a 360's output to make 1hp? What do comparable engines require? Say a Chevy 350, = or a 4.2 or 4.0L jeep engine? << It takes 53 HP at whatever RPM AMC's engineers motored the engine (no fue= l, no spark) on the dyno. Normal procedure is to run the engine up to operating temp on the dyno, then shut if down, use the dyno to motor the engine and measure the torque req'd at the unspecified RPM. HP is a calculation, of course. These dynos use a big generator to provide the lo= ad when the engine is running so, it's easy to turn the whole thing around a= nd drive the engine with the dyno when it's not running. The 360 has a little more taxable HP than a Chevy 350 mainly because the bore is little bigger (4.08" vs 4.00"). The AMC six cylinder engines have= less I'm sure. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 18-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:10:50 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 360 stroker "Kim Smith" writes: >> is it possible to us a 401 crank and rods with 360 pistons and make a "383" AMC? Or since all the V8 blocks are the same, is there enough meat = in the cylinder walls to bore a 360 block out to take 401 pistons, and use t= he whole 401 crank/rods/pistons set? << Yes Kim it is possible to use the 401 crank in a 360 block, but you would= need custom pistons and you may have to do some block clearancing. I don'= t think you'd have any trouble with the 401 rod's hitting the camshaft. All= the 401's main bearing sizes except the critical #3 (thrust bearing) are = a little less in length than the 360s. They are all the same diameter however. The rod journals are completely different between the two and th= e 401's rods have bigger small end diameter too. I think I have some boilerplate data which I'll add at the end if I do. The max. recommended overbore on the 360 block by AMC is .045". So like James already said, it's highly unlikely you could punch the block out al= l the way to 4.165" without getting a cylinder wall somewhere too thin or worse, striking water. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 18-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:20:23 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 360 stroker Oops, I forgot: All specs. nominal 360/304 401/390 # 1,2,3 & 4 dia. 2.7482" 2.7482" #5 dia. 2.7472" 2.7472" #1 main width 1.2665" 1.2565" #2 main width 1.247" 1.227" #3 main width 1.274" 1.274" #4 main width 1.247" 1.227" #5 main width 1.216" 1.2095" Rod journal dia. 2.0944" 2.2474" Rod journal width 2.002" 1.849" The AMC V-8's thrust bearing is #3. #3 is exactly the same between the two. The 401's #2 & #4 main bearing widths are the furthest off by 20 thousands. I think it'll work no problem. You'll have to use 401/390 rods= , the corresponding flex plate & damper and custom pistons, though. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 18-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:29:42 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update A: I actually considered putting a 4.3L V6 Vortech engine in the '84 GW I parted. (I wouldn't consider the 360 w/o EFI or a gas station!) Tacoma White wrote: A Chevy 350 wouldn't be a bad way of going if you can get one with fuel injection. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Gahhhhh! John, what's come over you!! AMC forever! I am stunned! The Jeepmeister RECOMMENDING a heart transplant for that most venerable of American motor vehicles! =A0=A0just kidding. IMO, a Chevy swap is more trouble than it's worth. Rebuild the AMC, so it DOESN'T leak, get some EFI on there and boom you're in like Flynn, everything fits right, no adapters/welding/rewiring/etc required. Unless you've got a built 350 w/harness sitting around, in which case it might be cheaper. But I doubt you do, right? =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0and let it be said now that I am putting some GM product, either an EFI 350 crate motor, or a 6.2diesel w/6.5 turbo on it, into my Kaiser M725. But it's a lot harder to justify keeping (or in my case, reinstalling) an engine no one has used for 30 years that has no power at all (230 tornado). Not for a 6300#, 8ft green brick anyway. =3D) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0on the insurance front, my people are p***ed, the girl's phone is disconnected and she has no current insurance. They are considering suing her personally if I want to fix my bumper, which I could really care less about. It's only bent, and trucks are meant to be bent. Woulda happened in Moab sooner or later anyway. But I'm glad they don't want to pay. =A0=A0=A0=A0John, go wash your mouth out w/soap and never speak such an obscenity again! hahahh in UT Tacoma 78 Cherokee Chief 67 Kaiser M725 "Gigantor the Heep" icq 5058954 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:58:24 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque In a message dated 2/18/2000 10:37:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: > From: Robert Barry (snip) > You can find more information about it at the > following site: > > http://www.singercars.com/racrate.html > > I have no idea why US auto manufacturers included this figure in their > owners manuals, but my '69-'71 owner's manuals all show this rating How very odd. Another piece of trivia for the dusty bin between my ears. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:41:19 -0700 From: "JC Jones" Subject: RE: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... On the NP series Transfer Cases, 10W30 or a synthetic equivilant is fine for the Transfer Case. I think the reason they switched in laster years to Auto Trans Fluid (which is also a fine lubricant for the TC) is because if the seals fail and TC fluid leaks into an Automatic Transmission you have a real problem if the Leaking Fluid is Motor Oil (very bad for Auto Transmissions). JC Jones :) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Kim Smith Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 10:46 AM To: FSJ Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... Then why did NP specify 10W/30 right on the tag on the transfer case??? Mine has 130,000+ now, had never had a change of lube since the factory, [one owner, and I have the records], what I drained out wasn't thin and red, I put synthetic 10W/30, and have had zero problems. I suspect that ATF is OK in those '80 & '81 units [BTW, the 208's for those years spec.the same lube], but isn't in later ones, and NP wanted to be sure that the 10W/30 didn't get into later boxes. kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Blair" To: "Neil Kapperman" ; ; ; <1FSJ-at-onelist.com> Sent: Friday, 18 February, 2000 01:41 Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... > A: You can use 10W30 in the PT converted QT, and the Jeep manual calls > for it in the NP219 ('80-'81 QT) but the manuals were WRONG! Later > manuals, and New Process put out a TSB saying that ATF was the right > stuff! > Check with Crown Automotive for the BW QT fish oil. > Tonight, I measured the 998 (23 spline) and AW4 (John's 21 spline > version. Anyone know how long the adapter sleeve housing is on a 23 > spline one?) tonight, and they were 22 1/2" and 25" respectively. > There has been a little chat on the Stroker list about building the > AW4 to handle maximum stress for strokers (using parts from Lexus AW4 > trannies and HD aftermarket stuff) so I will be taking the plunge and > putting one in Elmo during the refurb. > > {Note to John: How far is it from the end of the adapter housing of the > AW4 to the center of the tranny mount bolt holes? That was the one thing > I forgot to measure because we were gabbing.} > I forgot to take my pill this morning (which makes me more fuzzy > headed than normal, and gabbier, if that's possible) and I forgot tons > of other things today, but fortunately numbers [measurements] stick > fairly well. > > A 21 spline NP231 was 17" to the slip yoke and a NP229 is 18" (plus the > yoke to Ujoint). NP208 is how long? (I'll measure tomorrow) > > {Note to John again: Your T-5 is how long, taking into account for > angles of the tape measure?} The 242HD from a Hummer is the one to have! > 2.5" chain as opposed to the 1" wide XJ 242 chain! > > Neil Kapperman wrote: > Got a question for you... > I heard once that one could use standard non-detergent 10W30 motor oil > in the Quadratrac cases... (1976 Cherokee SC w/360 TH400 and BW 1339) Is > this true or do I have to actually buy the high ($10 a quart) dealer > stuff? > My last Quadratrac I had I used motor oil, but I believe it had the part > time conversion in it. > Talk atcha soon... > Neil > ______________________________________________ > I know we've discussed this a number of times on several of the FSJ > lists. :) I even looked into a synthetic solution to the problem. If > memory serves me correctly the only answer is to buy the $9 a quart > stuff made for the QT. I vaguely recall something that would work, or > maybe it was a source for the stuff... Either way, your best bet is to > use the stuff designed for it or you risk damaging the friction cones... > I'm cc'ing the fsj list on digest.net just in case a cure has been found > and my eyes glazed over as it passed before me on the screen... ;) > Out of the 2 or 3 Borg Warner Quadratrac unit's I've had I never had to > do anything with them... didn't keep 'em long enough. :) One of them did > have the conversion... > I prefer the 80 and up cases, or the Dana 20s. I would love to lay my > hands on a NP242, have a friend holding an NP219 for me... > Otherwise, I'm quite happy with my NP208 in my 83 J10 Stepside. My > little wagoneer is sporting the NP242, which I really think is about the > best xfr case a guy could have... especially if it had the 4:1 and SYE > kits... ;) > ttyl, > john > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false > ================================= > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:06:38 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 12.76 mpg propane has lots of advantages... however, the tradeoff isn't as much power per gallon. The rental outfit in Snohomish converted their pickups to propane and find that coming up the Clearview hill that they have to switch over to gas when they have a load on the trailer... not a bad tradeoff though... propane does burn much cleaner than gas... and doesn't produce the levels of carbon monoxide that gas does.... that's why fork lifts use it inside of buildings... john At 01:37 PM 2/18/00 EST, OrigamiTB-at-aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 00-02-18 11:15:39 EST, James Blair >wrote: > >> I'm going propane, because it's 28 cents a litre in Canada, >> and a stroker will be high enough compression to run just fine on it. > >A cabbie in Victoria told me that a lot of the taxis there (including his) >had been converted to propane for that reason, and that the engines lasted >much longer than with gasoline. > >++ Cornel Ormsby ++ >not leaving Las Vegas > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:04:21 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: RE: fsj: Re: Quadratrac Questions... A: I was out in the middle of nowhere when I blew the front tranny seal on my old Ford pickup. All I had was 30 wt motor oil. I put it in, and creeped back to civilization, added ATF, and drove it 2 more years, no leaks! I don't suggest this in a Dodge type tranny though! The State Patrol in AZ used 80W90 in their C#-at-v Powerglides, because they never cooled off. JC=A0Jones wrote: On the NP series Transfer Cases, 10W30 or a synthetic equivilant is fine for the Transfer Case. I think the reason they switched in laster years to Auto Trans Fluid (which is also a fine lubricant for the TC) is because if the seals fail and TC fluid leaks into an Automatic Transmission you have a real problem if the Leaking Fluid is Motor Oil (very bad for Auto Transmissions). JC Jones :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:14:49 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 12.76 mpg Wow! Just watching the news, and a UN plane belly landed in OZ! The higher compression ratio eliminates the lower power tradeoff. If you put it in a stock 8.5:1 or so engine, the power loss is drastic. The tradeoff here is the higher compression ratio makes more NOX, but running a EGR helps drastically! Properly set, LPG produces minimal HC or CO, but lots of CO2, and some NOX. (Laughing gas in an enclosed building? I think it's a plot by employers to make you LIKE going to work!) John wrote: propane has lots of advantages... however, the tradeoff isn't as much power per gallon. The rental outfit in Snohomish converted their pickups to propane and find that coming up the Clearview hill that they have to switch over to gas when they have a load on the trailer... not a bad tradeoff though... propane does burn much cleaner than gas... and doesn't produce the levels of carbon monoxide that gas does.... that's why fork lifts use it inside of buildings... john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #737 *************************