From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Feb 18 22:51:13 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, February 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 739 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: 4.0L intake on a 258 head? fsj: Re: Need help...Gonna shoot my Jeep fsj: Re: Need help...Gonna shoot my Jeep fsj: Re: 4.0L intake on a 258 head? fsj: Fw: 360 stroker fsj: Fw: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? fsj: Re: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update fsj: Re: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update Re: fsj: Re: Need help...Gonna shoot my Jeep fsj: '71 rag joint fsj: Re: More accessories for Julie fsj: Re: 4.0L intake, cps issue... :( Re: fsj: Fw: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? Re: fsj: Fw: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? Re: fsj: Fw: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? Re: fsj: Re: 4.0L intake, cps issue... :( Re: fsj: RE: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: Re: Need help...Gonna shoot my Jeep FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:52:17 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: 4.0L intake on a 258 head? Ok, crazy ideas spawn even crazier ideas... the thing it, it might just work... Tom Anhalt, who just did an MPI conversion on his 82(? or is 81) Cherokee with a 258, suggested that I use my spare 4.0L's intake/exhaust manifolds on my 83 258. Hmmm... this would be cool. Later, when my T-5 goes tango uniform (that's tummy up for you that don't know the polite version of TU) I can change the flywheel for the 4.0L flexplate and bolt up my Aisin Warner 30-40LE. In the meantime... to do the manifold swap and get Fuel Injection on my 4.0L, I'd have to also swap the distributer, modify some wiring, add an electric fuel pump, install the Renix "brain" under the dash and ??? Is this feasible? Am I forgetting anything? I think I'd get around the fuel tank/pump issue this way, get a used XJ tank, mount it in the rear of the bed, install an electric pump to move fuel from main to xj tank, or rig up an electric pump/fuel selector switch... with the xj tank as primary. Just thinking... first step is to put a pump on the main tank and get the injectors squirtin' in sync with the sparkin'... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:03:11 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Need help...Gonna shoot my Jeep At 07:47 PM 2/18/00 EST, RKH911-at-aol.com wrote: >Replaced both less than 5 days ago then your ignition switch has gone bad and is possibly shorted out... or you have some loose wiring... I'd systematically go through all your wiring taping and tieing stuff up and seeing if that doesn't help... you have a loose connection or something shorting to do this kind of thing... time to do a good housekeeping action on your wiring... tape, tie wraps and plastic sleeves... it's needed anyways, go for it. along the way you'll probably find a wire that was rubbing. Also clean and tighten all contacts. Of course if it's the ignition switch all you'll have done is prevent a future fire... ;) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:26:57 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Need help...Gonna shoot my Jeep At 08:12 PM 2/18/00 EST, RKH911-at-aol.com wrote: >Thanks John, I dunno that I wanna handle this job so will try and take her to >an auto electrician. > >Rob that can't be cheap... we're not talking about handling live electrons here, we're talking about taking a 59 cent roll of black electrical tape and wrapping wiring so it's not flailing about loose or rubbing on stuff. That and pushing connectors together... maybe taking them off and squirting AMSOIL MP or an electrical contact cleaner in there and reconnecting them. That and tightening down connections to ground and such.... it really requires little or no skill... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:45:53 -0500 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: fsj: Re: 4.0L intake on a 258 head? Later, when my T-5 goes tango uniform > (that's tummy up for you that don't know the polite version of TU) What's the impolite version? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:46:23 -0500 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: fsj: Fw: 360 stroker - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Drouillard To: Michael Baxter Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 8:33 PM Subject: Re: 360 stroker > > The max. recommended overbore on the 360 block by AMC is .045". So like > > James already said, it's highly unlikely you could punch the block out all > > the way to 4.165" without getting a cylinder wall somewhere too thin or > > worse, striking water. > > I wonder if you can bore it way past the 4.165" of a 401, then sleeve it. > How thick would the sleeve need to be in order to handle the stresses by > itself? If the sleeve is thick enough, hitting water wouldn't be a problem. > > Ray > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:46:38 -0500 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: fsj: Fw: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Drouillard To: john Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 8:28 PM Subject: Re: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? > > What's even crazier/better is I can eventually take the flywheel off and > > replace it with the flex plate from the 4.0L and use the Aisin Warner > > AT... actually, I'll need to do that right way unless I get that gizmo > > for the front of the engine for the Crank Position sensor... > > Yah... that's it! Your AW tranny will work great! Just let me know when > you get that rough 'ol five-speed out of there :) > > > Just thinking how swapping heads might be easier... I suppose I should > > get a better carb first... Just need to find a small one that'll bolt > > up to the Clifford manifold... > > Seriously, if you're going to disassemble that 4.0, you ought to use the EFI > setup. EFI makes a BIG difference on those six-cylinders. You'll get > better economy. > > If it was my Jeep, I would find a way to make the CPS work with the flywheel > that is already on the 258, and install the heads and manifolds from the > 4.0. > > Maybe you can look at Tom A's setup. The CPS on his engine is on the > harmonic balancer. You can probably buy the same setup from Mopar > Performance. Either that, or you can modify you harmonic balancer so that > it will trigger the stock CPS. > > Ray Drouillard > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:53:19 -0700 From: "Tacoma White" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update > Hi Tacoma, > > Good to see you are still kicking around. But what were you > thinking when you stated "everything fits right, no adapters/welding/rewiring/" > I love my jeeps but on all of mine nothing fits right and Jeep used > more "stock" adapters than eveyone else combined ! Lets not go in to > what I think of Jeeps stock wiring with factory duct tape. > > Later Mike D. > LOL.... yeah, little brain blip there--- of course nothing fits right LOL..... as I well know.... I meant you could cob one together from other Jeeps for very littel LOL... as long as you took WHOLE systems and not pieces. IE grab the tranny/clutch/adapters/pedals wiring instead of just the tranny thinking you can use any bellhousing... hahah Maybe Chevy's ARE easier after all......;) - --Tacoma ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:16:26 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Dillon Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Re: Hard Parts for FJS/insurance update Hi Tacoma I do agree, that it would be dam hard to justify a 350 Chev swap in place of a AMC V-8. By the time you get all the "non-stock" adapters and do your own duct taped wiring, welding and plumbing. The "cheap" chev 350 and its cheap hop up parts don't look so cheap after all. Better off just putting the coin in to the AMC as it will be cheaper in the end. If you are doing it as a hobby and don't expect any return on investment ie no better performance/$ then put in whatever engine your religion dictates. the most important thing is to have fun doing it. Mike D. > From tacoma-at-utah-inter.net Fri Feb 18 19:57 CST 2000 > Status: RO > > > Hi Tacoma, > > > > Good to see you are still kicking around. But what were you > > thinking when you stated "everything fits right, no > adapters/welding/rewiring/" > > I love my jeeps but on all of mine nothing fits right and Jeep used > > more "stock" adapters than eveyone else combined ! Lets not go in to > > what I think of Jeeps stock wiring with factory duct tape. > > > > Later Mike D. > > > > LOL.... yeah, little brain blip there--- of course nothing fits right > LOL..... as I well know.... I meant you could cob one together from > other Jeeps for very littel LOL... as long as you took WHOLE systems and > not pieces. IE grab the tranny/clutch/adapters/pedals wiring instead of > just the tranny thinking you can use any bellhousing... hahah Maybe > Chevy's ARE easier after all......;) > --Tacoma > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:48:56 -0800 From: Thunderbird Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Need help...Gonna shoot my Jeep The one time I checked in to it they wanted $45/hr just to find it. john wrote: > At 08:12 PM 2/18/00 EST, RKH911-at-aol.com wrote: > >Thanks John, I dunno that I wanna handle this job so will try and take her > to > >an auto electrician. > > > >Rob > > that can't be cheap... we're not talking about handling live electrons > here, we're talking about taking a 59 cent roll of black electrical tape > and wrapping wiring so it's not flailing about loose or rubbing on stuff. > That and pushing connectors together... maybe taking them off and squirting > AMSOIL MP or an electrical contact cleaner in there and reconnecting them. > That and tightening down connections to ground and such.... > > it really requires little or no skill... > > john > ----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com > ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird LX 4.6 V8/Sport "Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order." - --Ed Howdershelt ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:40:22 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: '71 rag joint I decided to replace the rag joint while taking out the useless "lifetime warranty" steering gear. The rag joint is saturated with the ATF I use in the power steering pump. I got a Chevy rebuild kit, but the parts aren't right. One of the original bolts is larger than the other and the studs are the same size. In the rebuild kit, the bolts are the same size and the studs are different (and too short). Finally, there seems to be no obvious way to seperate the steel parts from the rubber of the original. It was late to call the dealer or Specialty Parts. Anybody run into this? Also, there is what appears to be some kind of ground strap apparatus in the center of the rag joint. It was covered with crud and probably wasn't doing whatever it's supposed to do. Anybody know what it's supposed to do? Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:47:21 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: More accessories for Julie In a message dated 2/18/2000 4:47:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:30:40 -0600 > From: "Landon Tesar" (snip) > Where's a good place to get the cardan joint grease adapter ? NAPA gave > me a blank stare. Just your avg. 4WD specialty shop ? If you're talking about the "needle" fitting for the grease gun, I got a short one at Napa and a long one at John Deere. By the way there is an adapter that truly looks like a large hypo needle. I think these are for injecting CV boots. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:56:45 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 4.0L intake, cps issue... :( At 09:57 AM 2/5/00 -0800, Thomas Anhalt wrote: >john wrote: >> wow. This is a great idea. Actually, I'd be happy just trying >> the intake manifold... >> The only other issue is the distributer and wiring... Wow. I'm pretty sure the distributor will drop right in. >> Maybe I can take some pictures/measurements of the 4.0L intake >> and have someone with a dead or loose 258 compare. >> BTW, how'd you do your MPI? Do you have a write up and pictures of >> it? I'd love to 1) read it, and 2) post it on my website, and 3) include >> it in the mythical book of FSJ's I keep thinking and talking about and >> gathering >> data for... you ought to see my office... about 1/2 of it is FSJ brochures, >> pictures and manuals... it's gonna be hard shrinking and consolidating >> what I have... > >John, john.....don't you remember me? I did the MPI with the Mopar Kit, >so I'm using the HO style intake & computer on my 258. I still haven't >put together a write-up of the install...it was only 2 years ago that I >did it...I don't know what the rush is ;-) > >How were you planning on dealing with the crank trigger issue If you're >going to wait on swapping the flex plate....perhaps the Hesco modified >balancer and the external pickup? As far as I know, I don't think that >will work. I think I remember from the 4.0/4.2L stroker list that the >older Renix (non-HO) systems use a different type of sensor than the HOs >(which is what the Hesco stuff is). There are a couple of guys on that >list that are running the Renix stuff on 4.0 strokers that would >probably be a big help....you should probably join and ask. > >Later, >Tom has it really been 2 years? ;) I knew there'd be a catch... shoot, if I've got to drop the tranny to put the flex plate sensor in for the CPS than I might as well just use the 4.0L/AW4... So, once again, check. (chess term doncha know? ;) But, I can't do that right now until I figure out the transfer case situation. Either I need a 21 spline input setup on an NP208/219 or I need to find an NP242 and modify driveshafts... (and add the expensive slip yoke eliminator (SYE). So it's either input gear change, and / or driveshaft changes... Not too big of a deal either way really... Especially since the J10 is running well right now. Putting the intake manifold is ok, but getting the CPS to work is the hangup... So, at this point I need concrete. Then I can reassemble the AW and 4.0L and then find a transfer case... or maybe reshaft the AW for 23 spline and use my existing np208... hmmmm... How hard would that be? That would be the EASIEST thing yet. To use my existing transfer case and driveshafts that is... Or, change my input gear on my NP208 to a 21 spline... Which is easier? the tranny output shaft to 23, or the input gear on the np208 to 21? (I'm still thinking about that NP219...) Ok, so... It'll be easier to just swap in the complete 4.0L and AW4. The remaining issue is connecting the AW4 to a transfer case... OPTIONS: existing NP208 - change input gear to 21 spline or change output shaft of AW to 23 spline (or possibly swap the AW4 for one with a 23 spline) NP219 - again, change input gear to 21 or AW to 23 NP242 - change driveshafts Maybe I'll contact Olympic tomorrow and find out more about the output shaft... or maybe a 4:1 kit for my NP208... (I sold the NP231 to a guy in Georgia, it would have needed a SYE anyway) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:59:10 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Fw: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? A: The setup Tom has is for the HO computer, which is different from the Renix John has. Since he is going to put the AW4 in anyway, it's a snap to hook up the EFI with the 4.0L flywheel. Ray=A0Drouillard wrote: (below) and John wrote: What's even crazier/better is I can eventually take the flywheel off and replace it with the flex plate from the 4.0L and use the Aisin Warner AT... actually, I'll need to do that right way unless I get that gizmo for the front of the engine for the Crank Position sensor... Yah... that's it! Your AW tranny will work great! Just let me know when you get that rough 'ol five-speed out of there :) Just thinking how swapping heads might be easier... I suppose I should get a better carb first... =A0 Just need to find a small one that'll bolt up to the Clifford manifold... Seriously, if you're going to disassemble that 4.0, you ought to use the EFI setup. EFI makes a BIG difference on those six-cylinders. You'll get better economy. If it was my Jeep, I would find a way to make the CPS work with the flywheel that is already on the 258, and install the heads and manifolds from the 4.0. Maybe you can look at Tom A's setup. The CPS on his engine is on the harmonic balancer. You can probably buy the same setup from Mopar Performance. Either that, or you can modify you harmonic balancer so that it will trigger the stock CPS. Ray Drouillard ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:14:49 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Fw: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? At 09:59 PM 2/18/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: The setup Tom has is for the HO computer, which is different from the >Renix John has. Since he is going to put the AW4 in anyway, it's a snap >to hook up the EFI with the 4.0L flywheel. > yeah, provided I can find the missing link at the end of the transmission... :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:17:13 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Fw: crazy ideas... 4.0L head on a 4.2L?? A: Did you measure how long your T5 is yet? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:37:53 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 4.0L intake, cps issue... :( tanhalt-at-netpipeline.net (Thomas Anhalt) wrote: There are a couple of guys on that list that are running the Renix stuff on 4.0 strokers that would probably be a big help....you should probably join and ask. A: One is our XJ lister Alan Chung. John wrote: has it really been 2 years? ;) I knew there'd be a catch... shoot, if I've got to drop the tranny to put the flex plate sensor in for the CPS than I might as well just use the 4.0L/AW4... A: Personally, I'd get a hookup for the AW4/NP208 combo and put the AW4 in first (it's 2.5" longer than the 999 anyway) then hooking up the EFI will be a snap. >So, once again, check. (chess term doncha know? ;) But, I can't do that right now until I figure out the transfer case situation. Either I need a 21 spline input setup on an NP208/219 or I need to find an NP242 and modify driveshafts... (and add the expensive slip yoke eliminator (SYE). A: Actually, with the length of the Jtruck and the fact you're not planning to lift it, a slip yoke will work fine! >So it's either input gear change, and / or driveshaft changes... A: Measure both your shafts, and maybe we can do a beneficial swap! The V8 NP229 rear shaft is 2.5" shorter than the I-6 NP208 shaft FYI, so it's just the ticket. >Not too big of a deal either way really... Especially since the J10 is running well right now. =A0 Putting the intake manifold is ok, but getting the CPS to work is the hangup... So, at this point I need concrete. Then I can reassemble the AW and 4.0L and then find a transfer case... or maybe reshaft the AW for 23 spline and use my existing np208... hmmmm... How hard would that be? That would be the EASIEST thing yet. To use my existing transfer case and driveshafts that is... Or, change my input gear on my NP208 to a 21 spline... Which is easier? the tranny output shaft to 23, or the input gear on the np208 to 21? (I'm still thinking about that NP219...) Ok, so... It'll be easier to just swap in the complete 4.0L and AW4. =A0 The remaining issue is connecting the AW4 to a transfer case... >OPTIONS: existing NP208 - change input gear to 21 spline A: Maybe the NP207 input spline would work? >or change output shaft of AW to 23 spline (or possibly swap the AW4 for one with a 23 spline) A: I haven't looked at the ATSG AW4 book yet, but if it's the same as a Dodge tranny, there is a snap ring inside everything else holding it in. >NP219 - again, change input gear to 21 or AW to 23=A0 A: Possibly, but the NP208 gets better fuel economy with the 6 cyl in 2WD. >NP242 - change driveshafts Maybe I'll contact Olympic tomorrow and find out more about the output shaft... or maybe a 4:1 kit for my NP208... (I sold the NP231 to a guy in Georgia, it would have needed a SYE anyway) A: Find out what they want for a core AW4 or 2! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:41:43 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: RE: 12.76 mpg A: I read (here, XJ or AMC-list) that the 4.0L Head was slightly raised over 4.2L, then again for the HO. Thomas=A0Anhalt wrote: (snip) But your non-HO head doesn't have raised ports.....so maybe it will mate up to the 258 head.....just a guess, someone will have to match 'em up to see if it's possible. Later, Tom ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:50:22 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Need help...Gonna shoot my Jeep A: Rob, I know EXACTLY what's wrong this time! I've had it happen on numerous Fords and AMCs. Take your battery + off, and it will be wet and lightly corroded inside. Clean both, or replace the + short cable. It gets resistance between the battery and cable, and when you hit the key, all goes dead, but the starter is engaged to the flywheel, and the drop in power welds the solenoid closed temporarily (because more circuit is passing through the hold in coil, and it stays magnetized) till you pull the battery cable. A bad starter nose bushing will also drag and do the same thing. (Even Elmo did this to me once!) John wrote: replace your starter, it sounds like the bendix is hanging up. It could also be the starter relay, but not as likely. been there, done this and swapped in a boatload of FSJ starters on my 360's... john At 05:50 PM 2/18/00 EST, RKH911-at-aol.com wrote: Ok, I'm about done with it!! venting now. Last time, I was experiencing problems with warm starts....replaced the starter and the starter switch and all seemed ok...till today. Took it to the store, went in and when I turned the key the starter switch just made a nnnnnnnnnk sound every time I turned the key. DAMN I thought...Ok wait a while like I used to do but nothing (noticed if I turned my lights on - nothing and noticed my radio cutting on and off). Anyway, a guy came by and I asked for a jump. Hooked up the cables and it went dead...nothing. Heres where it gets good. we thought we'd just let it sit for a moment (Battery is good BTW) so I REMOVED the keys and then a second later the Jeep started to try and start ITSELF! didn't turn over but I think it was the starter just spinning away..ran back put keys in ignition, on and off and it stopped... Now can anyone tell me what they think of this?? I have a long message to write later about things I found last week but this Jeep is killing me...My only means of transpo and I'm about to put a slug in it! You're advice would much appreciated... Rob Harrison 85 not so Grand Wagoneer ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #739 *************************