From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Feb 20 00:27:06 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, February 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 740 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Electrical draw Re: fsj: RE: 12.76 mpg Re: fsj: RE: 12.76 mpg fsj: ebay posts fsj: Electrical draw fsj: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque fsj: Re: 360 stroker fsj: Need help gonna shoot my Jeep fsj: Re: pistons (was: 360 2v HP/torque) fsj: stroker club or a Diesel... fsj: Re: Need help gonna shoot my Jeep FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:53:51 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Electrical draw RE: Fan causing 1 volt drop: Borrow an inductive ammeter and see what the draw is when you turn the fan on. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:04:40 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: RE: 12.76 mpg At 10:41 PM 2/18/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: I read (here, XJ or AMC-list) that the 4.0L Head was slightly raised >over 4.2L, then again for the HO. > >Thomas=A0Anhalt wrote: >(snip) >But your non-HO head doesn't have raised ports.....so maybe it will mate >up to the 258 head.....just a guess, someone will have to match 'em up >to see if it's possible.=20 >Later, >Tom=20 Well I do know one thing... the 4.0L head is currently attached to the 4.0L block. The 258 head is... (see where I'm headed with this? ;) =20 Anyway, since there are several factors necessary to make the 4.0L EFI work, it's best to leave it where it is and transplant the whole assembly. All I need= is a TCU for the AW and a way of mating the xfr case and tranny. If all that's needed is to reshaft the AW4 to 23 spline, it'll be worth the $100 or so bucks to have a tranny shop do it. If the engine/trans combo is longer than the current engine trans combo then I can move the crossmember back and if needed modify the driveshafts, OR, adjust the engine mounts a bit, even if I have to go to an electric fan setup... not likely... should have enough room to move forward a bit if needed. I think things will be fine... At this point I'll start searching and assembling=20 components. I'll attach all the accessories to the engine, the trans to the engine and gather up the wiring harness stuff... Lay it all out and make sure everything is there and that all the plumbing will work... Hopefully if I do all that the 258/t-5 will never die and I can take my time to do the conversion. =20 But we know better... Maybe I should log out right now and start reassembling... rofl... Hey, murphy, what are you doing out there? =20 ttyl, john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:59:30 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: RE: 12.76 mpg A: Probably looking to hide your measuring tape! LOL! John wrote: But we know better... Maybe I should log out right now and start reassembling... rofl... Hey, murphy, what are you doing out there? ttyl, john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 04:06:26 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: ebay posts I just put several shop manuals, computer manuals, a Jacobs ignition system, cell phones, an HP workstation and a handcarved German cuckcoo clock up on ebay... The shop manuals are from a variety of vehicles, however, no Jeep or Benz stuff. you probably won't be able to use the link below, so I created one at http://www.wagoneers.com/4sale/ look for the link to john's current auctions on ebay. Or, go to ebay and do a search on dieseljohn. I will be selling several HP workstations in the next few months, let me know if you're interested in one, or one of the 20" high resolution monitors... the LINK that probably won't work... :) http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&us erid=dieseljohn&include=0&since=30&sort=3&rows=75 later, john ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:45:39 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Electrical draw "Berry, Bradley A" writes: >> Is the heater just wired in close enough to the voltmeter that it has this effect, or is there something wrong with the motor? Old and dying motor windings, or maybe something wedged in the fan cage causing more drag? << Brad, Does this occur only at idle or all speeds. If it's only at idle, the likely culprit is blower motor is loading the system to the point the alternator output drops below battery voltage. The larger the alternator, the greater the likelihood of this. = Blower motors pull a lot of juice. That's normal. The other scenario is wherever your volt meter is referenced in the system, the current draw= of the blower motor is causing a voltage drop of 1 volt. I don't think either constitutes a problem. If the latter scenario is too annoying to live with, you could interrupt the feed circuit upstream of the fan switch, install an ignition switched= relay (30 amp. would be sufficient), and over current protection directly= from the battery side of the starter relay to power the fan. You could install the relay at either end but, the over current device (fuse, circu= it breaker or fusible link) needs to be on the battery end. The only way to fix the alternator dropping-off at idle when under a load= is to swap alternators and see if you can find one which is wound better.= The lower the alt's max. output current, the less likely you are to have this problem. Down to 60 amps. I wouldn't go any lower than that. But if you have a 100 amp alt now, that doesn't mean swapping to another 100 amp= alternator wouldn't fix the problem. It might. I've had three different high-output alts. on our Dodge Motorhome over the years and each one was distinctly different in how much load it took to make them drop-off at idle. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 19-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:45:40 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: 84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Brazzadog-at-aol.com writes: >> This reminds me of something I read the other day. The text indicated= that piston skirts normally have some contact with cylinder walls. I always thought that the rings were supposed to be the only thing in conta= ct with the cylinder walls. Is the piston tapered from top to bottom? The only one I ever saw was came out of a 5hp Briggs & Stratton and I wasn't looking that closely. What is the skirts function? << Ben, The tops are round down the the oil control ring land. Below that they often are slightly oval shaped. The largest diameter of the piston i= s usually in the area of the pin bore, but perpendicular to the bore itself= . They're not tapered perse. Everyone has their own idea about which skirt design works best and there= are different types like slipper skirts and full skirts. To listen to a piston guru from Brand X talk about why they choose a certain skirt over Brand Y's skirt design is an enlightening experience and all makes perfec= t sense at the moment. Then walk over to Brand Y's booth and listen to thei= r piston guru explain why they chose their skirt design and why Brand X's design is not good. Enlightening again and everything he said makes sense= too. Then walk away the net effect is "I'm confused" and you make a resolution to leave skirt design to the "experts." :-). When you get new pistons which are other than OEM replacements, there should be a spec. sheet included. The sheet will have the instructions on= where to measure the diameter of the piston. In a perfect world, engineers would design all engines so there were neve= r be any side loads imparted on the pistons and pistons wouldn't need skirt= s. But unfortunately side loads are imparted on the piston because of the direction of rotation of the crankshaft and the dynamic rod geometry. The= skirt's job is to keep the side loads from rocking the piston to one side= in the bore and causing the ring package to break/reduce their seal. The thrust side of the cylinder walls of our engines are the side walls towar= d the passenger side of the engine. Next you get the chance to look down th= e bores of a bare block, look at all the walls toward the passenger side an= d you'll see more scuffing and wear. That's also the side which needs to ha= ve the thickest cylinder walls as a result. We have slipper skirts by the way. They save weight at the expense of ring control. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 19-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:45:37 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Re: 360 stroker "Ray Drouillard" INTERNET:RayLists-at-quixnet.net writes: >> I wonder if you can bore it way past the 4.165" of a 401, then sleeve it. How thick would the sleeve need to be in order to handle the stresses= by itself? If the sleeve is thick enough, hitting water wouldn't be a problem. = << Do you have a new e-mail address? Sure, you can sleeve a block no problem. But it is kind of expensive and usually reserved for saving rare and expensive blocks. Especially expensive when sleeving 8 holes. It's always cheaper to find a good replacement block otherwise. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 19-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:52:49 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Need help gonna shoot my Jeep Started with my Jeep trying to start itself: Jim Blair wrote wrote: A: Rob, I know EXACTLY what's wrong this time! I've had it happen on numerous Fords and AMCs. Take your battery + off, and it will be wet and lightly corroded inside. Clean both, or replace the + short cable. It gets resistance between the battery and cable, and when you hit the key, all goes dead, but the starter is engaged to the flywheel, and the drop in power welds the solenoid closed temporarily (because more circuit is passing through the hold in coil, and it stays magnetized) till you pull the battery cable. A bad starter nose bushing will also drag and do the same thing. (Even Elmo did this to me once!) K, I went out and pulled the battery. It was just as you described. + terminal appeared wet. Crap all over the terminals and connectors. Cleaned with wire brush and baking soda. There was almost what I would describe as tar on the terminals/connectors so I took a fine file and got that stuff off. Started first click of the key. Gonna go by new cables today. Lets hope! I'm just not used to things being simple - I guess this might be a lesson in routine maintenance..lol. Thanks again all who helped, I'll keep you updated. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:00:35 EST From: OrigamiTB-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: pistons (was: 360 2v HP/torque) In a message dated 00-02-18 19:47:00 EST, Ben Williams asked: > Is the piston tapered from top to bottom? It's actually tapered bottom-to-top, meaning that the top is a smaller circumference than the bottom. This is done to allow for uneven expansion, because the top runs hotter than the bottom (hence expands more). ++ Cornel Ormsby ++ not leaving Las Vegas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:32:57 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: stroker club or a Diesel... >> All you'd accomplish by putting the 4.0 head on the 258 would be getting >> an EFI 258....basically. I'd think you'd get more gain overall from the stroker. > >You hit the nail on the head there! > >So, John, why not join the stroker club with Alan and Rob? ;) That would be >the best way to power a big SJ if you insist on keeping a six. ;) >(Actually, I'm surprised he hasn't revived the diesel power idea for this one!) >Paul W I explained some of my reasoning in a previous note. I've done so many custom setups that it's hard for me to remember what is what. I'm better off sticking to what is stock or close to stock so I don't mess something up real bad. I'd end up having someone do something to it and forget to tell 'em that the insides are different and we'd probably mess it up. It's obvious for most mechanics to see that you have a different ignition or carb/FI setup... internal stuff is fine if you use parts designed for the same engine... mixing and matching components has a negative effect on overall reliability... something most of us can live with... Problem is I have no desire to build a beefy motor. The last one I built is still pushing my first FSJ around quite nicely over on the Pennisula! Pretty cool to see it still going after 12 years. But that's the same motor that could have gotten me in lots of trouble... ;) I'm better off in a rig that has just enough power to make it go... I spent too many years on the Autobahn... they have speed limits in this country doncha know... That and also Paul is correct, my FSJ is my daily driver since I sold my 81 300D. Now my wife is getting all over me for not having an economy car. I said, sure, I'll get a wabbit for work, but I'm not getting rid of my J10... now her tune has changed... ;) She says I'd have to get rid of the J10... so there be no wabbit in my future... However... ;) Paul, in your search for a motor for your Diesel chubby, if you spot an extra 6.2/ 6.5L Turbo Diesel/automatic setup let me know. The Diesel conversion is one that would probably be as easy as converting to a 4.0L... Actually, there'd be less wiring involved. Either conversion is fine by me. My lower back and sciatica have been behaving, mostly... The clutch setup in an FSJ is much better than an XJ. There are times I have to roll up to a light in neutral though... I can tell that my left leg is fixing to go into a major spasm... not fun... but my commute is painless and mild... I guess most folks don't like driving past Dairy farms. :) Sure it gets pretty ripe, but hey, when you're sippin' on a Latte it just kinda blends together ok... ;) In the meantime, Superdawg is doing pretty well. My next major project on him is to get the ride to improve. I'll be taking the spring packs apart and using Wagoneer springs, new friction pads and greasing 'em up with amsoil synthetic. My trick worked pretty good on Old Blue, he ramped quite nicely. :) The J10 only weighs about 4,100 lbs, while Old blue was closer to 5,000 lbs... I can tell the J10 has heavier springs than a wagoneer... so I either need to load ballast, or put in "weaker" springs. Anyways, I'm after economy, quiet, nice ride, and the capability of light hauling, wheeling and dealing with bad weather... I'm still gonna try and get that No-Slip setup... haven't had time to call Randy Lyman and ask his opinion of it yet. The guy is a mechanical marvel with the stuff... he really is very knowledgeable, and he is a degreed engineer. I hope the weather holds for a few more days... I'm off Monday... quite a surprise as I didn't get President's day off when I worked at boeing... I'd love to get the cab lifted tomorrow and then start on the springs... I love my FSJ... my wife absolutely hates it. I'm hoping after I sell some of my computer stuff off I'll be able to afford a decent paint job. ;) I don't thinkthat will change her opinion of Superdawg though... she thinks it's ugly. (At least she's not saying no one drives pickups like she did a few weeks ago... ;) Driving home from Bellevue today we were heading down I-405 and there were about 6 or 7 of 'em all around us... ;) 25 years of marriage this fall... wouldn't have it any other way. She'll come around to liking my FSJ first chance he gets to show his stuff... Or else she'll badger me into getting another Grand Wagoneer... :) Either way, I'm not giving up my FSJ. I like my xj too, but if it weren't for the fact it's setup so nicely, I'd consider selling or trading it for a nicer / newer rig... But I love that OME lift, my truetrac, the aussie bull bar, the IPF lights... I suppose I could keep the lights and the bumper... The lift kit is down in price to about $650 or so now... (it'd be worth it not to r&R a suspension system on two rigs to keep it... :) The truetrac and 4.10's would be hard to give up though... Oh well... are we ever happy with our toys? Heck no. Because they're old and in a continual state of improvement... ;) Our dissatisfaction drives our creativity. Creativity is a good thing. Civilization tends to advance from it. Guess it's true, real Jeeps aren't bought, they're built. ;) BTW, the little wagoneer made it home from sick bay today... New timing chain, front/rear seals, new fuel pump, new rear bearings, disc setup right, seat fixed... haven't seen the bill yet... and then on the way home the wife had problems with it... mechanic and I had to come out to retrieve it... a spark plug wire had popped off the distributer!!! My wife is very good about not pushing a vehicle. I'm sure she's saved us thousands in repair work by shutting down at the first sign of trouble. Anyway, this is getting long, I'm getting tired... and you're probably heading face down toward the keyboard from boredom... careful, don't hit your head now... keep on jeepin' john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:49:53 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Need help gonna shoot my Jeep Jim... you've amazed me again... :) Sometimes you go off on something I've never heard of before and I wonder if we'll need a net to reel you in... And then you spot something like this... bravo. I'm still wondering about the STP in the tranny... Back in High School some of us played around with that stuff in some small engines... yech. I haven't checked my fuel economy on Super Dawg yet... but he seems to be running pretty well after your "touch". Keep up the good work... but I'm gonna keep this here butterfly net handy, jus' in case... ;) BTW, looking like a pretty good possibility I'll be around when you come by Sunday afternoon... or nearby... I'll email my cell number off list, or do you already have it? I may be up the road installing an electric gate for a friend... Seems like my friends and neighbors found out I wired my own house before... after doing the gate I get to rewire a stove outlet and troubleshoot a shorted circuit... have DVM, will travel. First airplanes, then houses... electrons be electrons I tell ya... john At 03:52 PM 2/19/00 EST, RKH911-at-aol.com wrote: >Started with my Jeep trying to start itself: > >Jim Blair wrote wrote: >>A: Rob, I know EXACTLY what's wrong this time! I've had it happen on >numerous Fords and AMCs. Take your battery + off, and it will be wet and >K, I went out and pulled the battery. It was just as you described. + >terminal appeared wet. Crap all over the terminals and connectors. Cleaned >with wire brush and baking soda. There was almost what I would describe as >tar on the terminals/connectors so I took a fine file and got that stuff off. >Started first click of the key. Gonna go by new cables today. Lets hope! I'm >just not used to things being simple - I guess this might be a lesson in >routine maintenance..lol. >Thanks again all who helped, I'll keep you updated. >Rob Harrison >85 Grand Wagoneer > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #740 *************************