From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Feb 20 12:51:03 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, February 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 742 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Re: (sans sujet) (FRENCH Cherokee site) Re: fsj: Re: xj: Late Night with Aaron Re: fsj: Re: (sans sujet) (FRENCH Cherokee site) Re: fsj: getting 20mpg out of my I-6... fsj: Matt's xj for sale fsj: Fwd: Another MSNBC Poll For Your Attention fsj: FSJ Cooling problems revisited fsj: getting 20mpg out of my I-6... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 01:18:51 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: (sans sujet) (FRENCH Cherokee site) the real test comes tomorrow...=20 when you're no where near that translation website... ;) (here's one for you: http://www.dictionaries.travlang.com/ ) Ich kann Deutsche sprachen... :) (Ich hat funf jahr im Deutschland bleiben... von 1975 bis 1981.. :) auf wiederschnitzel und jeep fahren,=20 tschuss... johannes At 12:44 AM 2/20/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >Ich kann deutsches wenig schreiben und lesen. Verwendete, >Niederl=E4ndisch, aber Punjabi au=DFerdem zu kennen, die ich kann wenig >nur sprechen oder verstehen > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr >http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: >http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 01:12:17 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: xj: Late Night with Aaron At 12:39 AM 2/20/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >Aaron Storms wrote: >Since hardly anyone is posting tonight, other than John, I'll pitch in >to keep the ball rolling! >I like hearing your thoughts on >your jeep buildups, so don't worry about rambling on if you can tolerate >my windiness as well:) well being windy and talking about jeeps is fine... if ya find yerself heading for the keyboard with your forehead it's time to delete the message or save it for after a double short latte... the thing that makes this list so nice is we don't give folks grief for going long... I'll be the first to admit that some of the threads are not of interest... I skim 'em and dump 'em. They're saved on the server if I ever need it. :) Nice bunch of folks on these lists. It's great to have the opportunity to get feedback and ideas. Case in point... The thought of pulling that Clifford intake was the furthest thing from my mind when I sat down at the keyboard tonight... Tom's message made it clear to me that the thing is probably evil. :) BTw, I've actually had the pleasure of meeting and wheeling with Tom down in Santa Barbara. It was great!!! He's got a beautiful life down there. I love the view from that trail! Dan and Tom and I had a great day of FSJ wheeling on the Camino Cielo. Sunny January day, up looking out over the Pacific... it was great! In the early days of the FSJ list there was kind of an unofficial contest to meet as many folks as possible... I've lost count, but I think I'm still the record holder... could be wrong though. I may be the only person on the list to have met, and ridden in (or touched the FSJ's not running), of guys in Florida, California, Illinois, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Nevada, and BC... I've met doc and Timex, Michael B and his Chero, Super Ken and his super... tom and his chero, dan and his gw (hey, anyone heard from dan???), eddie and ol' white, david klingenberg and his 68, and so on and so on... The point is this, this is not just a "list". It's much more. I've tried to get the momentum going on the XJ list... met folks across the country, but the same kind of kindred spirit doesn't exist. I guess with the older FSJ's it's different... we're forced to be innovative, resourceful... it's harder to find parts and such... An Xj is a different animal... you can go to the dealer and buy parts... life is simple... :) Maybe adversity develops the bond that draws the lunacy of FSJdom together... The day will come where Xj owners will understand the bond of the scarce part... :) say goodnight john... goodnight, john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 01:26:00 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: (sans sujet) (FRENCH Cherokee site) A: I freely admit I used the translator. I need it for the odd French word too! Most of the spoken German I know is unfit to print! Comes from working with loggers! LOL! John wrote: the real test comes tomorrow... when you're no where near that translation website... ;) =A0=A0=A0=A0(here's one for you: http://www.dictionaries.travlang.com/ ) Ich kann Deutsche sprachen... :) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0(Ich hat funf jahr im Deutschland bleiben... von 1975 bis 1981.. :) auf wiederschnitzel und jeep fahren, tschuss... johannes At 12:44 AM 2/20/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: Ich kann deutsches wenig schreiben und lesen. Verwendete, Niederl=E4ndisch, aber Punjabi au=DFerdem zu kennen, die ich kann wenig nur sprechen oder verstehen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 01:59:18 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: getting 20mpg out of my I-6... At 10:57 AM 2/5/00 -0800, Thomas Anhalt wrote: OK, I think I see John lapsing into what-if-o-mania and paralysis-by-analysis. engineering... it's in my blood I tell ya. :) time to shoot the engineer and get on with the project, eh? ;) Here's what you're looking at....your J10, although it is running good, isn't getting much better gas mileage than a well-tuned 360. The culprit appears to be the Holley carb which is probably too large for amen. The tailpipe tells the story too... it be black... :( A: Maybe I need to lay hands on the Holley! LOL! I'll stick with Carters thank you! The problem with powervalves is curable with a little drilling and a kit. I don't mind working on the 2 BBL Holleys and Motorcraft, but the 4bbls drove me nuts! >Ok... pulling the Clifford only requires tracking down a stock one... John B. in MT offered me his old BBD, John, did that come with a manifold? Would I need to hook up all the stepper motor stuff? A: It depends what year his BBD is. I have all the harness and stuff from the '83 Eagle I just parted, and I'll have the one off Elmo fairly soon. >probably intended for higher rpms than you like anyway. Of course, if you don't want to remove the Clifford, then my My hesitation on removing the manifold is a holdover from V engine fears... not an issue now that I give it a few microseconds of thought... ;) A: The intake would be great for LPG, but unless I was racing, I wouldn't run a carb on it! >find a small Quadrajet to put on there. Brad F. on the other FSJ list would be a good reference to find out what model and also how to tweak it just right. The great thing about the Q-jet is the really small primaries. You should be able to find an adapter for that. A Q-jet would be good... I remember Brad... I'm sure he remembers me too... EVERYBODY remembers me... funny how that is... ;) A: B&B definitely has that adapter! I saw one today while I was there. With the stock intake, you can run a Dodge 2bbl BBD just the same way. >>Just a thought, based on the other "hot rod" stuff that was on your 258 (dual point distributor, Clifford manifold, Holley 4bbl, etc.) do you think that they might have also swapped the cam to a longer duration unit? Just a thought. >How would I tell? It seems to idle fine... no lope that I can tell. I've done the mild and wild cam before on a V6, I don't notice anything like that on this one... Although Superdawg sure does howl when you really get on him... ;) A: I'll give a listen tomorrow. I can usually hear a different cam than stock (used to bug them when I was about 10 years old on tech row at Mission raceway! I'd walk past a running car in the stock class, and go "That cam's not stock!" Made some guys there real nervous! >>a holley 390 cfm can be had for $375 new... ouch. A used Q-jet could be found in a wrecking yard if someone can get a message to Brad for me and find out what to look for. This might be the easiest to do. Changing manifolds isn't that hard or involved on a straight 6... nothing like a V6/8. I could see if Olympic had one... last I checked with them on carbs wasn't too promising... A: Try B&B for a Holley rebuilt one. About $175 last I checked. 2. Install a high output coil (Jacobs makes a cylindrical direct replacement for the Ford horseshoe connector type coil) and install low resistance spiral core wires (you may have done this already). Open up spark gap to at least .045" after these changes. You can also index the plugs.... the indexing washers are very cheap, it just takes a long time to do the indexing, not difficult, just tedious. Index them so that the gap points to 11 o'clock as you look at the cylinder head. I have an UltraCoil and Jacobs wires... but I gapped the plugs at .035... I've never played around with indexing, but it's worth a shot. Does NAPA carry the indexing washers? 11 o'clock... let's see, little hand... ;) I'll try that tomorrow... I'll regap to .045 and index... A: I've never indexed plugs, but I usually run multigrounds with open side gap. The long reach ones in Elmo seem just fine. I always oil the threads and clean out around the holes when plug changing (I just tuned my buddy's Lincoln up, and he couldn't believe I was swapping out the plugs while the motor was running! LOL! I replaced the Chumpions with Autolites and put on new wires. When I started on it, it smoked out the whole neighbourhood and probably set off smoke alarms all over S Seattle. (fire department showed up) It's not perfect yet, but it perks up compared to what it did (the 400M is just a basic motor anyway) I'll be driving it tomorrow to reseat the rings (It got Bitron treatment to help unstick the rings) The coil on the newer Fords is just the trick for our FSJs w/o having to blow a bundle on other things. The drive gear from the dual point will be going on the HEI dist I bought from the wrecking yard. 3. Install a low restriction air cleaner. I prefer K&N, I know that you'll use an Amsoil ;-) done. both actually. ;) It came with the cotton guaze thing that costs twice what it should and lets twice the stuff through... and then I fabricated an outer wrap from AMSOIL filter material so I catch the bad stuff before it gets to the K&N. ;) Still breathes nicely. I'll eventually put a real amsoil filter in place, once I've figured out what's gonna live on top of the manifold. It has an Erson chrome air cleaner right now... A: I may be interested in the K&N setup (if it will fit the LPG setup) 4. Install a 2.5" exhaust pipe and low restriction muffler and cat. This thing has the strangest exhaust setup I've ever seen on a straight 6. The guy split off the exhaust just past the collector and has TWO complete exhaust systems running back to the rear... the mufflers seem to be pretty free flowing, although they have a lifetime guarantee... and look pretty stock looking... and there is NO catalytic converters at all... let me tell ya, it was a challenge getting this thing through emissions with a Holley and no cat... ;) I suppose I could replace the two mufflers with a flowmaster designed for a corvette... that way I'd have dual in/dual out but one case... or get two new mufflers... I don't think there is much restriction... the pipes are at least 2" each... A: Dual 2" is just right for a 4.2L IMNSHO Otherwise, you lose bottom end, which you don't want with a 6! >>You know it would have been very cool if Jeep had continued making the FSJ and then added the XJ technology from the 87 and up models to it... Later, Tom A: That's what I'm retrofitting Elmo for! >20 mpg is the target... =A0 It's feasible, possible and been done before. A: Daily! I normally get 20 MPG from Elmo, but the cold weather, 30" tires on steel rims and running out of oil 3 times cut me back to 17. >I went with 31x10.5's, have 3.31 gears... but still might be able to do it. I appreciate the insight and feedback... A: The 33" tires and 3.31 gears will give me 2.89 equiv, which is close enough to my present 2.72, and low enough to give me just a little extra perk (especially with the new motor to go in) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 08:17:51 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Matt's xj for sale Matt is selling his xj. We've gone wheeling together by Mount Rainier. Very nice setup. He lives down in Porltand, Oregon. We're trying to figure out a price and perhaps find a new home for it. It's set up very nicely... I'd estimate $4,500 to $6,500... maybe more... thoughts, ideas, offers? thanx, john - ------- Specs: 1988 Cherokee Laredo White/Grey 4.0L 5 speed. Engine was brand new in 1998 and has about 20k on it (clutch replaced and tranny tuned up) 155K Total. Oil has been changed reguarly and it still comes out clean after 3000. Borla header, flowmaster muffler, K&N cone filter. Rubicon Express 4.5" lift (new style arms), stainless brake lines, tomken swaybar discons, rs9000s 5x BFG MT 32x11.50 on AR 767 15x8 with the stock spacing which I think is 4.5" can't remember right now. Currie s.y.e. and 6 states cv driveshaft. 4.56 gears (recalibrated speedo), Dana 44 rear with trackloc. Trimmed inner fender wells in rear. Very clean (worked in detail shop), paint still good, non-smoker. CD player with infinity speakers in the doors. contact: "Matt Whiteley" - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:14:46 -0800 From: Thunderbird Subject: fsj: Fwd: Another MSNBC Poll For Your Attention PlumCrazy Nissan wrote: > http://www.msnbc.com/news/371722.asp?0m=-21B > > Do you think President Clinton is overstepping his authority in order to > leave an eco-legacy? > > * 787 responses > > Yes, Congress and the public should be more involved. 62% > > > No, conservation action is urgently needed. 38% > -- > Steve and Jenny Henderson > 95 "PlumCrazy" Nissan Hardbody and 97 Chevy Ext-Cab Z-71 > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird LX 4.6 V8/Sport "Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order." - --Ed Howdershelt ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 03:17:39 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: FSJ Cooling problems revisited Content-Disposition: inline I brought my Cherokee home this afternoon. I ordered a bunch of parts for= my hybrid engine project and while I was comparing them to the existing stuff to make sure they're the correct parts, I contemplated the cooling question. Why do some of us have what seems like unsolvable cooling problems and others don't have any trouble? = I had trouble for 3 or 4 years. Every Summer when the temps. were above about 85 F, my temp. gauge would sometimes climb. By the time I was done = I had tried 3 fan clutches, had the radiator rodded-out, changed the water pump, thermostat and tried 2 other fans. I also did some parts swapping between the Wag. and the Chero. I think I set a new record for installing= the most inoperative fan clutches, new out of the box, in a row. But I didn't know they were all inoperative/defective/poor design/whatever at t= he time. I thought all of them were good and I was chasing another problem. About the time I was really frustrated and ready to write-off the engine thinking something was obstructing coolant flow internally, I was replacing the fan clutch on the Motorhome ('78 Dodge MB-400 chassis with = a 440) because it was leaking silicone/viscus fluid out the front. I got to= thinking and then comparing the new fan clutch (Hayden HD 2747) and MH fa= n to the one in the Chero. Same rotation, same clutch depth, same bolt patterns, the fan was 1" bigger at 20" in diameter and it had 1/4" more blade pitch. So instead of installing the new clutch and the 20" fan in back in the MH, I let it sit a few days and I installed it on the Chero's= engine. Immediately I noticed fan noise like I've never heard before. This combo. moved some air. After letting it run for 3 mins. or so at fast idl= e it also became apparent the clutch wasn't going to disengage like all the= other clutches did. I noticed a noticeable loss in performance right away= . But when I did the acid test, climbing the 7-8% grade home from the store= in 90 plus temps, A/C blasting and foot flat to the floor (only barely ab= le to reach 65 MPH instead of the 80 MPH I had attained in the past); the temp. needle didn't climb off of thermostat temp. I couldn't live with this clutch and fan combo., but I knew what the problem was now. The OEM clutch had performed well in the past up to the point the clutch had failed and the cooling probs. started. I at least learned these facts. I sat down on the garage floor literally and I compared all the fan clutches I had. I only had two of the new clutches since I had returned o= ne under warranty. I had the warranty replacement Hayden 2705, a Valley clut= ch and the OEM clutch that I originally swapped out when this all started. That's when I noticed the original clutch was a different design and had = an all aluminum front where as the others had anodized sheet metal front pressed into and aluminum housing. I set out to find a replacement clutch= that was like the OEM. And I found one in a Kool Clutch (or Klutch) box but, since then I've seen the same clutches in boxes with other brand nam= es on them. Since the 20" fan from the 440 fit in the shroud perfectly, I also put on= e of them on my shopping list. The 20" I got and I have on the Chero. now i= s not an exact match to the one on the MH, but it is 20", 7 blades and 2 3/= 4" pitch. And it is for a Dodge 440. I put this combo. together in the Summer of '94. My cooling problems were solved and performance was acceptable. I can go 75 MPH flat-out up t= he hill. This was all with my second radiator which was a Canadian made (bra= nd unknown) 3 row radiator. I subsequently got a 4 row Modine from a '76 401= Wag. and took that down and had it rodded-out. That's the radiator I have= installed now. = That's the story and I know a lot of you have heard it before. Now let's move up to late last Summer. John M. and I were riding around town notici= ng the sweet smell of anti-freeze when he came to visit. I couldn't find the= problem. I finally found a small slit next to the bypass hose in the top radiator hose. I got a new Gates hose and installed it thinking that was the problem. It wasn't and I still occasionally smelled coolant which I subsequently solved when I found I hadn't tightened the fat heater hose's= clamp tight enough when I changed the A/C compressor. Coolant was soaking= the seal and then trickling down through the inside of the heater box. After I installed the new top radiator hose, I noticed twice the temp. gauge needle creeping off of thermostat temp. after extended idling with the A/C on in hot weather. Something the Chero. hadn't done for the previous 5 years. A fan noise check with this condition present seemed to= indicate the fan clutch was engaged. Also, once underway it was taking a lot longer to cool back down to thermostat temp. than before. What now I thought? The only change was the top hose. Comparing the old hose to the new hose,= the old one was bigger in diameter. I can't imagine this could make a difference but... I mean, the water neck and the radiator inlet are the restrictions to flow here it seems. The cooling system is a tuned system though. I ordered another Dayco hose and when/if the problem returns this= summer, I'll be in a position to find-out for sure. I also ordered and received another Kool Klutch OEM type fan clutch. That's base #1. The other thing we didn't mention on the recent cooling problem threads. I remembered while checking mine this evening. That's the anti-collapse "spring", for lack of a better name, in the bott= om radiator hose. I checked mine to make sure it hadn't separated somewhere from corrosion and the two halves retreated. Both of my FSJs have the original springs inside the bottom hose. All the replacements I've bought= over the years have never included a new spring but, I've gotten new springs in bottom hoses for other applications. So I'm not sure where/how= you get a new spring if you don't have one now. But you absolutely positively must have one in the bottom hose to keep it from collapsing fr= om water pump suction. Lastly: With all the talk about water pumps recently on the lists, I ordered a pump for my hybrid project. My 1st plan was to get a Flow Koole= r for the new engine. I replaced the OEM cast iron pump during a throw part= s at the cooling problem fest with a made in Japan, GMB aluminum pump, whic= h was "advertised" to improve flow over stock. The quality was good when I inspected the new pump and it's been pumping without a hiccup for 6 years= or better. GMB model 1040. I remembered they offered a high performance pump. A model 1040P. That's what I ordered. Now we'll see if I get it thi= s time because, I think I tried to order a 1040P the 1st time and it was unavailable. STay tuned, Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter >From Reno, NV USA on 19-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:11:15 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: getting 20mpg out of my I-6... john writes: >> Hey... maybe I need to trade superdawg in for a really clean cherokee,= that way I can toss those teenagers in the back and still have my FSJ... widetrac, six cylinder and two doors... ;) = << Don't sell. The kids will be grown and gone soon enough :-). Plus, I want= to live vicariously through you anyway. I have always wanted a J-Truck mainly because I could put my motorcycle in the bed and tow my travel trailer. Right now I have to coerce someone into going along who can haul= the motorcycles. Lucky my dad just retired and he has a truck. Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) writes >> OOH!!! Big mistake there! You can ask John, I'll go on for HOURS even if I'm tired! << Okay John, James and Aaron. This is a little bit late as in it's the next morning but, it brings back memories: GO TO BED! :-) Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 20-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #742 *************************