From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Feb 28 13:22:42 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, February 28 2000 Volume 01 : Number 751 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: I-Beam Bumper: 3 Hours, $10, No Welding fsj: Re: the latest Daimler - Jeep merger... ;) fsj: 5.7 GM Diesel Re: fsj: limited slip works... Re: fsj: NP229 input gear Re: fsj: 5.7 GM Diesel Re: fsj: gold plated parts Re: fsj: NP229 input gear Re: fsj: gold plated parts Re: fsj: gold plated parts Re: fsj: gold plated parts fsj: One of our proposed destinations in news Re: fsj: gold plated parts FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 23:31:21 -0500 From: Robert Barry Subject: fsj: I-Beam Bumper: 3 Hours, $10, No Welding It wasn't raining (in fact, the sun was shining), it was above freezing (well above- about 60=BAF), and I brought home the scrap 4"x6" I-beam from work on Friday, so today I figured I'd see how far I could get with constructing a replacement rear bumper for my '78 Cherokee. I first cut it to a 5'7" length, drilled 1/2" holes in the location of the original four bumper bolts, and bolted it on. It cleared the tailgate when lowered, but the corners would cause a nasty gouge or rip on anything that encountered them. So I cut a triangle off each corner, and off the bottom corners as well.=20 I sprayed some Rustoleum on there just to cut down on the surface rust until I can use a knotted-wire wheel on it and give it a nice hard glossy coat of black paint. I'm also waiting on other modifications I'll be making on it (slots for the factory-style jack, mounts for tow-hooks or a D-shackle, extra mounting bolts, etc.) before giving it a final finish. All-in-all, it took about three hours to finish. The $10 cost was for the four cutoff wheels I used up with my mini-grinder; the end plates on I-beam are 5/16" steel, which eats up grinding wheels fast. That mini-grinder has got to be the best investment I've ever made in a tool (aside from a cutting torch, there is no other way to even begin thinking about doing this job). I snapped some pictures, which I can post by the end of the week. I'm pretty happy with the results, *especially* for that price. ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:49:20 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: the latest Daimler - Jeep merger... ;) The CJ10s had the transfer cases locked into low range... a briggs and stratton lawnmower engine could move stuff around in low range... The nissan diesels were also used in the Terra Scouts. john At 12:24 AM 2/28/00 -0500, Kriz wrote: >I was reading some of the tech info you have compiled. You mentioned a Jeep >CJ10 which may have been made for the military and used as a aircraft tug. >Configured with a nissan diesel, 727 auto trans and NP208 transfer case >locked into low range. If one of these engines could be aquired, could >they be configured into the J10. That would match the trans. and solve a >lot of the chemistry. Do you think they have enough guts to pull the J10. >I would like to tow a trailer, could they handle a heavy unit. Just >thinking out loud. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "john" >To: "Kriz" >Cc: ; ; >Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 20:23 >Subject: Re: the latest Daimler - Jeep merger... ;) > > >> At 06:32 PM 2/27/00 -0500, Kriz wrote: >> >I have a friend that has a low mileage 300D, non turbo. I don't know if >> >it's available or not or how to make it fit but what's your opinion of >that >> >in a J10. Is there someway to adapt the bell housing to the jeep. I've >> >been on the diesel list for some time. Enjoy the reading even though it >has >> >become somewhat overwhelming. >> >> I know of a 240D engine equipped with a volvo turbo running around >> in Sweden in a Cherokee. :) (full size). >> >> I'd say the 3.0L 5 cylinder Diesel would work ok in a J10 if you didn't >> expect to haul anything or do any stop light drags. The 300D weighed in >> around 3,500 lbs or so and did 0 to 60 in 19 to 20+ seconds. The J10 with >> a 4.2L gas engine will do the same drill in about 15 to 18 seconds. My >J10 >> with the short wheelbase stepside, 4.2L/T-5/NP208 weighs in around 4,100 >lbs. >> >> The additional 600 lbs would definetly put a strain on the Diesel, but not >> beyond practicality. I'd have to sit down and map the power band, hp, >torque >> and rpm ranges in both vehicles to see if it would work. My J10 has 3.31 >> gears, >> some of the J10's I've seen have 2.72. Gearing can be modified with tires >to >> some extent... however, bigger tires suck more power. I know, I just went >> from 235's to 31x10.5's on Superdawg and have noted a decrease in power... >it >> was about a 6% increase in tire size, power dropped off where I'm dropping >> down >> a gear earlier than I would have before. Mileage is only slightly >affected >> as far as I can tell at this point. >> >> I would certainly be interested in the conversion as I love my J10 and >love >> Diesels... :) I think that a 6.2L or 6.5L Chevy Diesel would be a better >> candidate... I'd use a 700r4 for the conversion and try to mate my >existing >> NP208 to it... >> >> Making an adapter to mate a tranny to an engine is not terribly involved. >> Any machinist should be able to assist. The trick is figuring out which >> flex plate or flywheel to use to mate up. I'd guess I'd use the flex >> plate from the benz, add in an Aisin Warner automatic (4spd overdrive) and >> just make a sheet metal bezel to make sure that engine and tranny were >> connected. >> >> Or maybe find an old 240D flywheel and try to use my existing T-5... I >> dunno... >> >> so many options, so little money and time... It's great to dream, to plan >> and to analyze... There is always an "I gotcha" somewhere in the scheme. >> >> The "I gotcha" typically costs about $495, plus another $100 labor to have >> it installed by a transmission specialist... ;) Of course that was back >in >> 1989 and it may cost more now. >> >> It's all possible... just get all the pieces together and see if they'll >> fit before you start disassembling a running vehicle. Use a multiplying >> factor of at least 2.5 to your worst case time estimates. My last major >> conversion >> took about 7 or 8 months to complete instead of the 1 month I initially >> planned. >> :) Worked out ok, and even saw the rig a few weeks ago running around, so >I >> know it was a good swap (gas engine setup, boring). :) >> >> ahh... Dreaming about a Diesel powered FSJ again... >> maybe someday... IN the meantime I'm enjoying my six cylinder Jeeps. >> >> Hey, I read about a new Korean 4x4 that uses the Mercedes 3.2L gas engine, >> priced at less than 20K too! Korando??? or something like that. Looks >> pretty cool... It's similar to a Cj7 from what I can tell, with a hard >top. >> >> MB reliability at an affordable price... hmmm... ;) Too bad it ain't a >> Diesel... I sure wish the ML series came with the Diesel... I could live >> with the mini-van looks, poor off-road ability and the price tag... ;) >> >> later, >> dieseljohn >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com >> http://wagoneers.com/83stepside/ (Superdawg) >> http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Jx000s/marks-67-J3000/ (son's FSJ) >> http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html >> http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html >> Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >> ----------------------------------------------------------- > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:12:08 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: 5.7 GM Diesel I pause and consider the relevance but have to ask... And note that I've had several 5.7L GM Diesels that I would take in a heartbeat over a 2.8L V6, seriously!!! I got 230,000 miles out of my 80 Olds Cutlass with the 5.7L Diesel!!!! This has got to be a record. Unbelieveable. Our '80 Toronado overheated when we drove it away from the factory executive w/ 16K miles on it, and continued to warp heads with regularity every 40K miles. Fuel pumps lasted about 30K, and they weren't cheap! The T-425 didn't last with the high torque at low rpm. What a sad day for GM. John, you must drive very carefully. Do tell the secret if you have the time here. - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 100 08:19:40 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: limited slip works... John, Wow, those are big bucks! At the yards around here, carb is about $15 and manifold is about $15. But carbs can be hard to find at times and it can take awhile to find one you like. Manifolds seem to be plentifull. - -brad John writes: > I went with traffic pulling out onto highway 9 the other morning... > So I wound up Superdawg a bit and sorta dumped the clutch and mashed > the go pedal at the same time... surprise surprise surprise... we did > the sideway squeal, nicely controlled, smooth even... I kept the demand > for power up as I banged through the gears leaving a nice puff of black > smoke each time the gear changed... > > The times before just one wheel, usually the right rear would break loose... > guess the l/s only works when turning left under hard acceleration... ;) > > Really need to get a smaller carb on this puppy... I called Olympic. > $75 for a "rebuildable" carb, $65 for the manifold... James, if you're > gonna be around tomorrow I can swing by to swap the steering wheel and > I guess I'll take ya up on the offer on that manifold. :) Anything else > you need? Not sure what time we'll be coming by. Gotta go to Camano Island > and Bellevue... they're not exactly close to each other either... ;) > > ttyl, > john > ----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com > ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > ----------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 100 08:42:53 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: NP229 input gear John, The parts manual shows that the 219 and 229 use different input gears, so I don't know if you could swap between them. Might be able to. Might not. - -brad John writes: > Anyone got any extra input gear for a 21 spline NP229 laying around? > > I've found an NP229 and an NP219 and am wondering if the 21 spline > input gear from an XJ's NP229 would work in an old 23 spline NP219 or NP229. > > The only problem with an NP229 is the lack of a 4wd high lock... Using > the 229 with Hubs makes good sense, I'll have 2wd and 4wd... AND, if > I can find a 21 spline input gear for the NP229, I can mate it up to my > Aisin Warner and use my 4.0L setup!!! :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:19:20 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 5.7 GM Diesel I got 80k out of the original engine after buying it with 68k on it. The cam went flat and started making lifter noise. I had oil leaks around the filter assy, etc. Pump was fine. The olds dealer convinced me to install a Targetmaster replacement. Gave me a great price and I did it. Of course the dealer bungled the swap and created massive problems that took a few months to fix, which I did. The targetmaster Diesel was the model used from 83 up. Roller lifter cam, redesigned head setup, beefed up lower end, and redesigned gaskets... Did great. My wife ran it out of oil at 160,000 miles and it survived thanx to the products I sell. :) We then drove the snot out of the thing for another 4 or 5 years until I did something stupid and overrevved it and busted the camshaft... it died in service at 230,000 miles. If I hadn't "fixed" the transmission the way I did, I'd probably still be driving that car. :) The Targetmaster 5.7L Diesel is worth having. The original ones died long ago... ;) john At 09:12 AM 2/28/00 -0600, Landon Tesar wrote: >I pause and consider the relevance but have to ask... > >And note that I've had several 5.7L GM Diesels that I would take in a >heartbeat >over a 2.8L V6, >seriously!!! I got 230,000 miles out of my 80 Olds Cutlass with the >5.7L >Diesel!!!! > >This has got to be a record. Unbelieveable. Our '80 Toronado >overheated when we drove it away from the factory executive w/ 16K miles >on it, and continued to warp heads with regularity every 40K miles. >Fuel pumps lasted about 30K, and they weren't cheap! The T-425 didn't >last with the high torque at low rpm. What a sad day for GM. John, you >must drive very carefully. Do tell the secret if you have the time >here. > >- Landon > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:23:46 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: gold plated parts sometimes Olympic thinks they have gold instead of parts... I'm bidding on a couple on ebay right now... we'll see. I've got a line on an NP229 with driveshaft from a J10 that may work out for the swap. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to find a 21 spline input shaft for an NP229, and maybe even put it in an NP219... we'll see... THe NP229 would allow 2wd mode, but doesn't lock up in 4 high... :( Not sure I really need it to do that or not... john At 08:19 AM 2/28/00 -0800, you wrote: >John, > >Wow, those are big bucks! At the yards around here, carb is about $15 and >manifold is about $15. But carbs can be hard to find at times and it can take >awhile to find one you like. Manifolds seem to be plentifull. > >-brad > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:43:56 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: NP229 input gear thanx for checking... I'd like to see these parts manuals you have some time... :) As far as gearin' goes, you have the rosetta stone, the dead sea scrolls and the ancient code of the sumerians all rolled into one (or several) books... ;) john At 08:42 AM 2/28/00 -0800, Brad Seevers wrote: >John, > >The parts manual shows that the 219 and 229 use different input gears, so I >don't know if you could swap between them. Might be able to. Might not. > >-brad > >John writes: > >> Anyone got any extra input gear for a 21 spline NP229 laying around? >> >> I've found an NP229 and an NP219 and am wondering if the 21 spline >> input gear from an XJ's NP229 would work in an old 23 spline NP219 or NP229. >> >> The only problem with an NP229 is the lack of a 4wd high lock... Using >> the 229 with Hubs makes good sense, I'll have 2wd and 4wd... AND, if >> I can find a 21 spline input gear for the NP229, I can mate it up to my >> Aisin Warner and use my 4.0L setup!!! :) > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 100 09:52:29 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: gold plated parts John, I have the same delima about the 219/229 selection. I have both. Don't know which I want. I'm pretty sure I remember someone on the other list modified their 229 to give them 2wd/4wd open/4wd locked/N/4wd locked low several years back. I have my 229 apart right now and I plan on investigating this. If I can do it without too much work, thats the path I'll take. - -brad > sometimes Olympic thinks they have gold instead of parts... > > I'm bidding on a couple on ebay right now... we'll see. > I've got a line on an NP229 with driveshaft from a J10 that may work > out for the swap. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to find a 21 spline > input shaft for an NP229, and maybe even put it in an NP219... we'll > see... THe NP229 would allow 2wd mode, but doesn't lock up in 4 high... :( > Not sure I really need it to do that or not... > > john > > At 08:19 AM 2/28/00 -0800, you wrote: > >John, > > > >Wow, those are big bucks! At the yards around here, carb is about $15 and > >manifold is about $15. But carbs can be hard to find at times and it can > take > >awhile to find one you like. Manifolds seem to be plentifull. > > > >-brad ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:36:50 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: gold plated parts A: They would have used NV249 or 242 shifter parts to do it. (late model '95 or newer). I read on Cherokee America? on ORC about someone doing it too. FWIW, you could use a Vac front axle to get 2 lo with the NP229, but the NP219 doesn't have a 2wd position, unless you count the emergency repair (Removal of the spring and checkball, and moving the shift lever with a screw driver, then reinstall. Jim Bolton described doing that on his when the VC went) Carbs are $40 here in good running order or not, and someone in Marysville parts nothing but Dodges (I saw their ad in the Buy & Sell) What about the Pic-a-part Dana works for now? Brad wrote: John, I have the same delima about the 219/229 selection. I have both. Don't know which I want. I'm pretty sure I remember someone on the other list modified their 229 to give them 2wd/4wd open/4wd locked/N/4wd locked low several years back. I have my 229 apart right now and I plan on investigating this. If I can do it without too much work, thats the path I'll take. - -brad sometimes Olympic thinks they have gold instead of parts... I'm bidding on a couple on ebay right now... we'll see. I've got a line on an NP229 with driveshaft from a J10 that may work out for the swap. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to find a 21 spline input shaft for an NP229, and maybe even put it in an NP219... we'll see... =A0 THe NP229 would allow 2wd mode, but doesn't lock up in 4 high... :( Not sure I really need it to do that or not... john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 100 10:45:53 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: gold plated parts I don't think the guy on the list used parts from any other t-case. I think he either ground or machined the parts out of the 229. On the ends of the rotating shift rods there are these funny shaped steal plates that translate the rotational movement of the shift rods into sliding movement inside the t-case. By changing the shape of the translater you can change its behavior. (Sorry I don't have a better description!) Several companies do this sort of thing for the NP231 to change neutral from 4wd to 2wd for towing (front and rear axles not locked together). I'm not saying that NV249 ro 242 parts wouldn't do it too, just that I don't think they would be the only means of doing it. - -brad > A: They would have used NV249 or 242 shifter parts to do it. (late model > '95 or newer). I read on Cherokee America? on ORC about someone doing it > too. FWIW, you could use a Vac front axle to get 2 lo with the NP229, > but the NP219 doesn't have a 2wd position, unless you count the > emergency repair (Removal of the spring and checkball, and moving the > shift lever with a screw driver, then reinstall. Jim Bolton described > doing that on his when the VC went) Carbs are $40 here in good running > order or not, and someone in Marysville parts nothing but Dodges (I saw > their ad in the Buy & Sell) What about the Pic-a-part Dana works for > now? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:56:59 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: One of our proposed destinations in news The subscribers on the list are hearing this for the 1st time. The story:= When Mac (Robert Maclay) was here a few weeks ago he suggested we have a little FSJ get-together in conjunction with the Hot August Nights event which is held in early August every year here in Reno. I started talking with some of the local FSJ contingent about how and where. In fact, we plan to have lunch together on Wed. (any other lurking= FSJers from Reno, e-mail me if you would like to attend). One of the possible destinations for a trail ride was the Black Rock Desert. Some of you probably remember the sound barrier being broken by t= he British Thrust SSC team on the Black Rock's Playa. The Black Rock is too far away to be able to really explore but, there are some places we can reach and return in a day. There is an article in the Reno Gazette-Journal today on a proposed bill to designate the Black Rock Desert a National Conservation Area and also designate some areas Wilderness Areas. The Tree Huggers maintain the= intention is not to block public access in what would be the conservation= area. Wilderness areas probably would be blocked including High Rock Cany= on and High Rock Lake. The whole story is up for the day: http://www.rgj.com Click on the Local News link. There is another link at the bottom of the story's summary for the full text version. Plus there is a related story which makes a statement about 4-Wheelers, breaking axles and such, going-up canyons, walking-out or never coming-out and the Sheriff finding= their "bloated bodies." They weren't driving FSJs :-). I've been up there= a lot since I was a teenager and I'm still here. There is also a poll you can participate in. Please do. There is a lot of opposition to this Bill here in Nevada. I don't think its chances of passing are very good as long as there is anything in it t= o block public access in anyway to what would become the Conservation Area.= I don't know about the Wilderness areas. The point of all of this is the Black Rock is a very extreme place to be in August. Just in case this Bill happens and access is eventually blocke= d, I'm thinking we should make a trip soon. It would likely be 2 or 3 days (camping...maybe one night in the motel in Gerlach) and involve 200-250 miles of off-road travel. It's best to do the Black Rock in the Spring or Fall. And the lake bed can have a lot of soft spots in it in th= e Spring and we do not want to get into a wet area. There isn't a 4-Wheel drive built which can get out of some of them. But the Spring is the prettiest time of year and we do not have to venture out on to the playa.= It just takes a lot longer to get from one end to the other and you can't= sit in the back seat of your FSJ with the cruise control set (no one in t= he driver's seat) for an hour. Anyone game? Let me know via e-mail. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 27-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:42:49 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: gold plated parts A: Since I have one of each for parts (NP229 and NV249) I'll have to compare them! I reread what I wrote, and I didn't mean to imply that was the only way to do it! Brad=A0Seevers wrote: I don't think the guy on the list used parts from any other t-case. I think he either ground or machined the parts out of the 229. On the ends of the rotating shift rods there are these funny shaped steal plates that translate the rotational movement of the shift rods into sliding movement inside the t-case. By changing the shape of the translater you can change its behavior. (Sorry I don't have a better description!) Several companies do this sort of thing for the NP231 to change neutral from 4wd to 2wd for towing (front and rear axles not locked together). I'm not saying that NV249 ro 242 parts wouldn't do it too, just that I don't think they would be the only means of doing it. - -brad ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #751 *************************