From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Mar 3 12:55:34 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, March 3 2000 Volume 01 : Number 757 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Black smoke and white gas Re: fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC Re: fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC fsj: cruisin' at 1100 fsj: 63 Ragtop fsj: Re: black smoke fsj: Hub paint Re: fsj: 63 Ragtop fsj: Re: Wagonmaster Kerrville Texas Re: fsj: 63 Ragtop fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC Re: fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC fsj: Re: One of our proposed destinations in news fsj: Re: alert Re: fsj: Re: Holley 390 cfm Re: fsj: Re: alert fsj: Edelbrock Carb/Man/EGR Re: fsj: Edelbrock Carb/Man/EGR Re: fsj: Edelbrock Carb/Man/EGR FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:06:36 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Black smoke and white gas A: I ran Elmo out of gas once (before I fixed my gas gauge) when a helpful neighbour thought I had too much fuel in the tank. 2 AM in the middle of nowhere (almost. Between Bellingham and MT Vernon on I-5 in winter) I managed to coast to the rest area, but the phones were down (this was before my cellphone) and I managed to get part of a 5 gallon can of diesel from a trucker. Elmo fired up and ran a little smoky but okay on it (thank God I had just put a coil from an '80 Ford in!) and I putted up to Bellingham, topped off with premium and didn't have anything else go wrong! Sure put out lots of heat while the diesel was in there! Good thing it was winter! Kim wrote: Another thought, John, is to decrease your accelerator pump shot. If you're getting too much gas from the accel. pump when you goose it, you sure will make black smoke. If your plugs aren't reading rich, rejetting won't help I had an FSJ moment this evening. Ran out of gas, only had a gallon of Coleman lantern fuel handy .Now, my FJ-40 would run OK on white gas in an emergency out in the boonies, didn't ping or knock unless you really got on it. But my AMC 360, even with 130,000+ on it rattled like a Diesel at anything above an idle. Luckily, only had to go 1/4 mile. kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 100 11:02:49 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC John, Just do the manifold swap, and you will be happy! Isn't hard to do, won't take very long, won't cost very much. I have never regretted ditching mine for the stock intake manifold!! I really like the Rochester dual-jet (2G). I have several of them in my garage. Jeep used them on the 225 V6 and on the 350 Buick. One of the ones I have I yanked off a 350 Buick Wag. I had one on a 69 CJ5 and really liked it. Good echonomy, good offroad manners. Just a note -- lots of GM sixes use a Rochester 1bbl carb -- the monojet. Some use the dual-jet. Another carb that might be worth investigating is the follow up to the dual-jet. I can't remember what it was called, but it is basically just the primaries off a quadrajet. Suposedly it improved both MPG and emissions over the dual-jet. It has a bigger bolt pattern than the dual jet, so it might fit. Most are feedback, but there was a year or two where they wern't. I have more info at home in a rochester book. A cool carb that won't fit is the follow up to the 2bbl carb above. I also don't remember what it was called, but it was a 2bbl 2stage carb. Small primary, big secondary. But it has a much different mounting pattern. Again, most but not all are feedback (I think). - -brad John writes: > > so in other words, it won't work with the Clifford, just like > the Holley TBI... :( > > It's looking like the only thing that is going to work, other than > the 4.0L setup, is the Holley 390 cfm for $250 from Jegs... problem > is I'm outta bucks... :( Gotta sell an HP pretty quick. :) > > john > > > At 06:00 PM 3/1/00 -0800, Paul W. wrote: > >It's a common as dirt two barrel carb used on all the GM sixes and small bock > >V8's from the 50's well into the 70's. The 350 (and maybe the 327?) version > >has a bigger bolt pattern (and more CFM) than the others. I don't know if > one > >will bolt to your Clifford, since I don't know what pattern it has, but if I > >remember right, if a BBD will fit, so will the smaller 2GC... it's a popular > >mod for the CJ crowd that are cursed with problematic BBDs. You probably > won't > >find one at Fitz due to their age, but places like Ray's Auto Wrecking in > >Everett, or any other yard that specializes in the older cars should have a > >pile of them. > > > >Paul > > > >--- john wrote: > >> > >> ok... what is a 2GC? What years/models? Is this a > >> Fitz item or some other local yard? > >> > >> Will it bolt right up to the Clifford? > >> > >> thanx, > >> john > >> > >> >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:19:47 -0800 (PST) > >> >From: "Paul W." > >> >Subject: Re: xj: carb help... again... > >> > > >> >A carb that works well on the 258 and happens to also be an excellent > >> off-road > >> >carb is a Rochester 2GC from a Chevy I6, old Buick/Jeep V6 or Chevy 283 > V8. > >> >(some of the bigger small block Chevies also used a 2GC, but it is a > bigger > >> >version that will be too much for a stock 258). Often times you can find > >> these > >> >babies real cheap - or even free! I had a guy give me one from a 283 > >> because > >> >he was going to a 4bbl and just wanted the thing out of his shop. > >> > > >> >Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:33:08 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC At 02:15 PM 3/2/00 -0800, Paul W. wrote: >What's the pattern of this Clifford manifold? If it is a 4bbl pattern, you can >pick up an adapter for a few $$ to adapt a 2BBL.... certain race classes do it >all the time - run 2bbls on 4bbl manifolds. > >--- john wrote: >> so in other words, it won't work with the Clifford, just like >> the Holley TBI... :( I believe it's a square bore pattern... there are a couple of adapters on it now, including a "hot plate", has heater hose connections... :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 100 15:43:51 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC Yes, the adaptor to convert from the square pattern to two bbl carbs is a very common part. I have one for my clifford manifold that I bought at an autoparts store that has holes for the ford 2100 type pattern (same as holley 2bbl??), the Rochester 2GC pattern, and the carter bbd pattern (same as the rochester 2G). I also have an adapter to mount the carter AFB type carbs and others with the same pattern (holleys?). It is interesting that you have a separate hot plate. Mine has the hot water manifold built into the bottom of the manifold as an integral unit. But mine also is not for the 258. - -brad > At 02:15 PM 3/2/00 -0800, Paul W. wrote: > >What's the pattern of this Clifford manifold? If it is a 4bbl pattern, > you can > >pick up an adapter for a few $$ to adapt a 2BBL.... certain race classes > do it > >all the time - run 2bbls on 4bbl manifolds. > > > >--- john wrote: > >> so in other words, it won't work with the Clifford, just like > >> the Holley TBI... :( > > > I believe it's a square bore pattern... there are a couple of adapters > on it now, including a "hot plate", has heater hose connections... :) > > john ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 16:48:22 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: cruisin' at 1100 with the timing set so it doesn't ping, riding on 31x10.5's I can cruise along at about 35mph in 5th gear at 1,100 rpm or so... :) (I don't expect SuperDawg to accelerate in that condition and I barely keep my toe on the gas... don't want to bend nothin' :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 21:11:33 -0500 From: M Subject: fsj: 63 Ragtop Wow, I was just lurkin' the digest when I saw Jim Blair's mention of a 63 ragtop. I had a 65, a really nice car, durable and economical, good looking. Then I began to realize how man of these amc and family cars I had. My first driving machine was a 52 Nash Rambler station wagon, an early prototype for the fsj. I wasn't big but it was bulky, a bit like a bathtub as I recall (it and the Porsche of the era), and burned, leaked(fsj)and drank oil by the case. Oversize tires always rubbed on the emergency brake cable under articulation. Then a 60 followed by a 62 Rambler American, definite fsj hush-hush testing on the street. They were like a cube on a box with all the aerodynamics we've come to expect. They had great reclining seats that made into a whole platform with the back seat, the perfect drive-in movie vehicle. The old days...I wouldn't mind having the durability and zip in my GW, to say nothing of the mileage, and gas was only $0.25 a gallon. I hope you put a picture or two up Jim, you've got me nostalgic. Best to everone, Mike G ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:18:07 PST From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: black smoke I don't know about the rochester... but i would make sure the choke is not on... i have the probs with the 2100 when it gets cold and going on high altitude >6000' i have to put a wire to keep the choke valve open, of course with the lack of oxygen, it idle fine without the choke! My heater valve blew -the flappy thing-, but i still have the stovepipe... at sea level, it run fine, choke disengage! michel ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:37:24 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Hub paint I got hub/rotor/lockout assemblies from the junkyard yesterday (off an '81 F-150) to go on my Dana 44 axle project. Between now and April, I won't really have time to do much more than clean them up. Seems like a good time to paint them since they'll have plenty of time to cure. I figured I'd paint the hubs the eggshell color that the stock rims were/are on my '71. It'll look funny against the white of the wagon wheels that are on it now, but I guess that's ok. Here's the dilemma. The lock-outs are Warn's with brass (plated?) knobs. They seem to be in good shape other than needing new allen screws. The knobs look like they used to be painted black, so I'd like to repaint them. Is there special prep required for painting brass? I've got some kind of brush on primer stuff that's supposed to be good for aluminum - if that would work. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:49:03 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 63 Ragtop On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, M wrote: >-->nothing of the mileage, and gas was only $0.25 a gallon. I hope you put >-->a picture or two up Jim, you've got me nostalgic. >-->Best to everone, >-->Mike G If I get the time I'll run down and snap a picture or two of it... Jim's camcorder pix won't do it justice. ;) Hey, Jim, did you find all that stuff we're swapping around yet? :) I forgot what I was bringing now... rofl... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:44:42 EST From: OrigamiTB-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Wagonmaster Kerrville Texas In a message dated 2/29/00 10:54:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, john wrote: > reality can be very harsh sometimes... > > you'll be cruisin' right along thinkin' things are awesome and > then blam... sudden stoppage... you pick yerself up, look around > and realize that you just dropped enough bills to buy one of those > little bobtail jeeps or jeep look-a-likes from the far west... Been there, done that, didn't even get the T-shirt! ++ Cornel Ormsby ++ taking my chances on the road in Las Vegas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 01:10:55 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 63 Ragtop A: It turned out the car was a 2dr post (same as the convert in 3rd Rock though) and I got another today that came from AZ and will need some fixing. You're probably not up now, but are you going to use the EGR? If so, we may as well swap the exhaust as well because of the EGR pipe. I found that Dorman makes new 4.0L Borla type headers with a lifetime guarantee against cracking for $250! I'm taking off for BC in 3 hours or so (my son gets another long weekend, and I need to visit the chiro!) On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, M wrote: nothing of the mileage, and gas was only $0.25 a gallon. I hope you put a picture or two up Jim, you've got me nostalgic. Best to everone, Mike G If I get the time I'll run down and snap a picture or two of it... Jim's camcorder pix won't do it justice. ;) Hey, Jim, did you find all that stuff we're swapping around yet? :) I forgot what I was bringing now... rofl... john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:10:24 EST From: OrigamiTB-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:19:47 -0800 (PST), Paul W. wrote: > A carb that works well on the 258 and happens to also be an excellent > off-road carb is a Rochester 2GC from a Chevy I6, old Buick/Jeep V6 > or Chevy 283 V8. My little Willys MB had a Rochester 2GC on its Buick V-6 when I got it, and it was junk. I had it rebuilt, which didn't help, then replaced with another Rochie, which didn't help much either. I finally chucked 'em when I installed the Offy Dual-Port and Holley 390 4-barrel, which worked grrreat! > Often times you can find these babies real cheap - or even free! Yes, and they're worth every penny. ++ Cornel Ormsby ++ no Rochies, no huaraches ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 100 08:20:44 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Rochester 2GC Interesting. I have had nothing but very good results with the 2GC. - -brad > On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:19:47 -0800 (PST), Paul W. wrote: > > > A carb that works well on the 258 and happens to also be an excellent > > off-road carb is a Rochester 2GC from a Chevy I6, old Buick/Jeep V6 > > or Chevy 283 V8. > > My little Willys MB had a Rochester 2GC on its Buick V-6 when I got it, and > it was junk. I had it rebuilt, which didn't help, then replaced with another > Rochie, which didn't help much either. I finally chucked 'em when I installed > the Offy Dual-Port and Holley 390 4-barrel, which worked grrreat! > > > Often times you can find these babies real cheap - or even free! > > Yes, and they're worth every penny. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:28:50 EST From: OrigamiTB-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: One of our proposed destinations in news In a message dated 3/1/00 6:53:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, Michael Baxter wrote: > The Bill that NV Senator Richard Bryan has drafted has > some language in it that would allow public access to be > blocked if someone in the Government decides so. Someone like the DOE, DOD, or USAF? They already can, and do, plenty. > That's the part which makes me nervous. If that makes you nervous, don't ever try any off-roading around Mercury, Rachel, or northeastern Las Vegas! ++ Cornel Ormsby ++ "Step outta line, The man come and take you away" -- Stephen Stills, "For What It's Worth" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:22:52 EST From: OrigamiTB-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: alert In a message dated 3/2/00 11:12:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, Clark Collins <73563.1551-at-compuserve.com> wrote about the enviros: > They have been largely successful in implementing a functional BAN > of sustainable forestry in our national forests That'll come as news to International Paper, Wickes, Thorogood, Huey Brothers, Weyerhaeuser, the American Forest & Paper Association, and about a hundred others who've been doing sustainable forestry for years, and plan to continue. ++ Cornel Ormsby ++ is the sky falling yet? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 09:37:57 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Holley 390 cfm Cornel, I know you've mentioned the Offenhauser a few times... but how well would the Holley 390cfm do on my Clifford? I'm trying to minimize expense on this motor while maximizing economy... I'm not sure how long the 258/T5 setup is going to last... Shoot, since this is THE MOST RELIABLE FSJ I've ever owned, bar none, and with only 131,000 miles on it... I can see this thing chugging along for years... PTL! I love it. I'm totally convinced that the 258 is the best motor ever installed in an FSJ. (I've had almost one of every kind too... except the 232/230, and the 401... I've even had a 304 in a Commando. ;) The only Jeep motor that is better than a 258 is the AMC 4.0L. Anyway, would throwing the Holley 390 cfm on my Clifford manifold help mileage? Also, there is a 450cfm Holley 4v someone is selling... I can't remember where it's at now, but I have a picture at: http://wagoneers.com/pages/carb.jpg (I'll have to check my email to see who sent the pix to me...) Anyway, would this carb be ok??? Man, I really don't want to tear Superdawg apart too far... john At 11:10 AM 3/3/00 EST, OrigamiTB-at-aol.com wrote: >On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:19:47 -0800 (PST), Paul W. wrote: > >> A carb that works well on the 258 and happens to also be an excellent >> off-road carb is a Rochester 2GC from a Chevy I6, old Buick/Jeep V6 >> or Chevy 283 V8. > >My little Willys MB had a Rochester 2GC on its Buick V-6 when I got it, and >it was junk. I had it rebuilt, which didn't help, then replaced with another >Rochie, which didn't help much either. I finally chucked 'em when I installed >the Offy Dual-Port and Holley 390 4-barrel, which worked grrreat! > >> Often times you can find these babies real cheap - or even free! > >Yes, and they're worth every penny. > >++ Cornel Ormsby ++ >no Rochies, no huaraches > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:48:30 -0800 From: Thunderbird Subject: Re: fsj: Re: alert OrigamiTB-at-aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/2/00 11:12:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, Clark Collins > <73563.1551-at-compuserve.com> wrote about the enviros: > > > They have been largely successful in implementing a functional BAN > > of sustainable forestry in our national forests > > That'll come as news to International Paper, Wickes, Thorogood, Huey > Brothers, Weyerhaeuser, the American Forest & Paper Association, and about a > hundred others who've been doing sustainable forestry for years, and plan to > continue. It says largely successful, not completely successful. Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird LX 4.6 V8/Sport "Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order." - --Ed Howdershelt ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 12:20:00 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: Edelbrock Carb/Man/EGR Hi, I'm having fun with this combination that recommends the #3731 manifold compatible and the #1406 carb. recommended that is not compatible with EGR. This seems a bit broken. The manifold does not accept stock spreadbore Motorcraft carb. What 4bbl does it accept that works with EGR ? Motorcraft squarebore 4bbl ? Holley ? None of this is, or fuel injection is advertised to work with the stock computer. This is the kind of mismatch/compromise/lowest common denominator (dominator?) I've come to expect from Edelbrock, though I respect the good results many have had. - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:51:06 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Edelbrock Carb/Man/EGR It's not the carb that works with the EGR, but the manifold. I used the Edelbrock Performer manifold on my 360... it just blocks the EGR ports and worked fine with the 1406. Went through tailpipe emissions fine. They don't do a visual here or I would have had to glue and EGR valve on top of the manifold... ;) EGr's simply take part of the exhaust and run it back into the intake to reduce the amount of fresh air (laden with nitrogen remember) so you reduce the amount of the oxides of Nitrogen, which create acid rain... I'm not sure who the rocket science was that determined to use EGRs on Diesels though... must have been a ring salesman or an engine rebuilder... nothing like dumping unburned carbon particles into a Diesel engine... can you say abrasive? I knew you could... :) john At 12:20 PM 3/3/00 -0600, Landon Tesar wrote: >Hi, > >I'm having fun with this combination that recommends the #3731 manifold >compatible and the #1406 carb. recommended that is not compatible with >EGR. This seems a bit broken. The manifold does not accept stock >spreadbore Motorcraft carb. What 4bbl does it accept that works with >EGR ? Motorcraft squarebore 4bbl ? Holley ? None of this is, or fuel >injection is advertised to work with the stock computer. This is the >kind of mismatch/compromise/lowest common denominator (dominator?) I've >come to expect from Edelbrock, though I respect the good results many >have had. > >- Landon > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 14:20:44 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: Re: fsj: Edelbrock Carb/Man/EGR I think I get it. The EGR controls exhaust airflow back into the intake stream 'INSIDE' the intake manifold, using vacuum to turn the flow on and off. So can I run the manifold that accepts the EGR and have it functional ? Don't I just need to run vacuum to the EGR ? Why would they describe a carb as EGR non-compatible ? They seemed very concerned that I might misinterpret that to mean 'legal.' yeah, right. Good to hear you had good results with the 1406 though. - - Landon ============================ john wrote: > It's not the carb that works with the EGR, but the manifold. > I used the Edelbrock Performer manifold on my 360... it just > blocks the EGR ports and worked fine with the 1406. Went through > tailpipe emissions fine. They don't do a visual here or I would > have had to glue and EGR valve on top of the manifold... ;) > > EGr's simply take part of the exhaust and run it back into the intake > to reduce the amount of fresh air (laden with nitrogen remember) > so you reduce the amount of the oxides of Nitrogen, which create > acid rain... I'm not sure who the rocket science was that determined > to use EGRs on Diesels though... must have been a ring salesman or > an engine rebuilder... nothing like dumping unburned carbon particles > into a Diesel engine... can you say abrasive? I knew you could... :) > > john > > At 12:20 PM 3/3/00 -0600, Landon Tesar wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I'm having fun with this combination that recommends the #3731 manifold > >compatible w/ EGR and the #1406 carb. recommended that is not compatible > with > >EGR. This seems a bit broken. > >- Landon > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com > ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #757 *************************