From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Mar 10 16:41:12 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, March 10 2000 Volume 01 : Number 770 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: Jeepsta Girl fsj: Re: What do you think about this? Re: fsj: Re: jeep parts Re: fsj: Re: Jeepsta Girl Re: fsj: double check prices Re: [fsj: What do you think about this?] fsj: U-joints Re: fsj: Re: jeep parts fsj: franchised shops... Re: fsj: U-joints Re: fsj: Re: jeep parts FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:25:45 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Jeepsta Girl At 08:20 AM 3/10/00 EST, PR4545-at-aol.com wrote: >I finished the xfer case. It wasn't that bad. The linkage was bent and had >disconnected. But when the Wagoneer was up I started looking around the >underside. The grommets on what kind of looks like CV Joints are gone, done, >shot. The wheels are nice and steady but I'm afraid the bearings are full of >crap. WHAT SHOULD I DO? I've never done front end work & I know it's >expensive. > >Thanx for your speedy reply >Patricia When it comes to front end work I usually take it to an alignment shop... avoid franchise type places though... expensive and not very skilled. The reason I take stuff like that there is because they have the tools, parts and know how. Not sure what you mean by grommets... but a front end shop will know. :) john - ---------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.freegift.net/ - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:34:52 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: What do you think about this? Whether or not they are asking a fair price is totally dependent on how you feel about paying it. If you don't like doing the work more than you don't like handing out money, then you should pay it. Years ago, when I got my first vehicle, I was outraged about how much it cost to have something done compared to the cost of the parts themselves. Take, for example, your brake shoes at $55 for parts plus $99 for installation. Last time I bought top quality shoes at Napa they were $33, so I "saved" $121. For that kinda money, I would rather finance a few mistakes as I learn and invest a little in tools. I've become more convinced over the years as I watch "professional" mechanics make the same dumb mistakes I do, and then charge the customer for it. If I'm gonna have an incompetent mechanic, I'd just as soon not have to pay for it. If you don't have time, space, or inclination to do your own work, then it's worth every penny you pay someone else. If you want to learn, the list can help you. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 > Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:10:27 EST > From: RKH911-at-aol.com > Subject: fsj: What do you think about this? > > Took my 85 Grand Wagoneer to BigO cuz of the squeeking I was hearing (U > Joints) and they went thru it pretty thoroughly..Heres what they found and > what they want to fix it....Help is needed cuz I love my Jeep and I'll get > it done anyway. (snip) > Roughly $750.00 plus the tires they want to get outta me... > K Guys and Gals, everytime I try and fix my Jeep I spend twice what I should > cuz I am not a great Mechanic...I want to fix all that needs fixing on my > Jeep and thensome but I have no idea whats fair or whats not. > Your advice is always appreciated...Sorry to ramble.. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:08:14 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: jeep parts A: First thing I would suggest is check the oil level in the rear axle (John forgot to add what year your Jeep was! :^) and Universal joints. (Make sure the bolts that hold the driveshaft are tight too!) Does it change with speed? With what gear you are in? Whether or not your foot is pushing on the gas? If only speed affects it, then it could be a wheel bearing or whiny rear end. (mine was run out of oil {thanks to Q-No-Lube in Smokey Point who is being sued by me as we speak} and sounds like a Jumbo 747 on takeoff at 60-70 mph!) If it varies with the amount you push the gas pedal, again it could be worn gears, or the output bearing of the transfercase. (If I knew which trans and case you had, or the year of your Jeep and whether it is auto or std trans, I could take an educated guess ! X^P ) John wrote: the low humming sound above 55mph is probably the transmission mount and / or dampener off to the left side of the tranny... john At 11:42 AM 3/10/00 +0100, Moorman wrote: - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: john Aan: Moorman Datum: vrijdag 10 maart 2000 2:11 Onderwerp: Re: jeep parts the chrome strip must be catching wind, or something else is wrong, shouldn't make noise, sure it's not the vent window or one of the windows? I have to renew all the weater strips of both the drivers and passengers side doors, so I'll see if that helps. Also the window on the passengers side sometimes goes down a bit on one side, so I'll have to look into that also. When I drive the wagoneer any faster than 55 mph I also get a very low humming sound that seems to come from underneath the car. Any suggestions on that? I heard wagoneers often have problems with the drive train. Robert john At 08:15 PM 3/9/00 +0100, you wrote: I've been to Amsterdam several times, kind of a dirty city. That hasn't changed...but the rest of holland is nice. I'm living northeast of Seattle, near Everett, in Washington state, up in the Pacific Northwest. :) Where jeeps don't rust, they mold. :) Same as here... I have to get weather strips soon, otherwise the jeep will also mold... I'm having a look at the rear window electric stuff tomorrow. You're probably right about the rear window weather strip. Since it's not in great shape anymore (all the rubber parts dried out, it's a car from florida) I guess the wiring got wet, so I'll look into that. I think you're right that it would be cheaper to buy an entire jeep and ship it than to ship parts... :) I'll probably do that. They're becoming hard to find, though. I tried finding one last year when I was in L.A., but couldn't find one. Would a early 80's wagoneer also do? I heard the wagoneer didn't change that much over the years, and then I would have newer parts. I just got my wagoneer a couple of months ago, and one thing that struck me was that there is so much noise coming from the windshield. The weather strips seems to be o.k., I once saw a wagoneer with a kind of plastic cover on the top of the windshield, but I guess that would be more of a protection against the sun, than a way to get less noise from the windshield. Any suggestions? thanks, Robert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:53:31 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Jeepsta Girl A: Do you mean the UJoints? (If you have access to some way of sending a picture, or if John or someone has the Jeep front end diagram posted, could you point it out?) Wish I had a scanner! I have the Eagle manual, but not the MR253 to take a pic of! Is it part of the rotating axles, the steering pivot points or on the hub itself? I don't suppose you mean the antisway bar end links? (they are about a foot long {IIRC} with a round bushing at each end, and attach to the bar that crosses the front below the radiator) PR4545-at-aol.com wrote: I finished the xfer case. It wasn't that bad. The linkage was bent and had disconnected. But when the Wagoneer was up I started looking around the underside. The grommets on what kind of looks like CV Joints are gone, done, shot. The wheels are nice and steady but I'm afraid the bearings are full of crap. WHAT SHOULD I DO? I've never done front end work & I know it's expensive. Thanx for your speedy reply Patricia When it comes to front end work I usually take it to an alignment shop... avoid franchise type places though... expensive and not very skilled. The reason I take stuff like that there is because they have the tools, parts and know how. Not sure what you mean by grommets... but a front end shop will know. :) john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:26:23 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: double check prices amen. ya gotta research and shop... even places that have done you right before might not be right this time... it pays too look, or better, it saves to look. :) same with parts.... john At 08:49 AM 3/10/00 -0800, Terry Wayland wrote: >Rob >Those prices dont seem to be all that high, but the grand total of $750 has >some sticker shock. There is just a lotta work to be done. When I moved to >the Tampa Bay area this year I had my A/C fixed. The first shop told me over >$600 worth of repairs were needed. I took it a few hundred yards down the >road where an older guy checked it out said my system was in great shape >just had a loose fitting and in need of a little freon. Total bill=$79.00! >Nine months later still ices me out. Best advise is to have several opinions >first. >Good Luck >Terry > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite >Visit http://freeworld.excite.com > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 00 11:28:18 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: What do you think about this?] RKH911-at-aol.com wrote: > Took my 85 Grand Wagoneer to BigO cuz of the squeeking I was hearing (U= = > Joints) and they went thru it pretty thoroughly..Heres what they found > "Re line Brake shoes" (Whatever that is)(Needs Pads, etc) ......$54.00 I haven't priced rear shoes, but I can't imagine that is a good price. T= akes about 15 minutes per side to change. > 2 Wheel Cylinders (RR)......$99.00 Is one leaking? Was it before you went in? > 1 Cleaner (Cost of materials)....$6.00 > Brake Fluid (Dot 3).....$5.00 Feh. Nickle'n'diming. > Tranny Mount (Broken)....$29.00 WHAT?!?! That's absurd. You need to get a 2nd opinion on this. I'd als= o ask them to show you where/how it is broken. Is it the rubber 'snubber' that= is deteriorated or is it the actual steel hardware that is somehow broken (w= hich I find unlikely). Perhaps bolts just need to be tightened or a poly or r= ubber snubber obtained. I can get you the mounting hardware for free as I have= a spare, and any good shop can replace it in no time. So can you with a ja= ck, wrenches, time, and some help from Haynes. > 3 U Joints (Needed desperately - bout 1/4 - 1/2" play)....$60.00 The u-joint itself costs $17 for the premium model at NAPA. About $7 at Autozone. They're marking you up quite a bit. What kind of u-joints are= they using and do they have a lifetime warranty as the NAPA/Autozone parts do?= Replacing the driveshaft u-joints in the rear is simple. If you have the= right socket to pull the yoke straps, once you have that out in maybe 10 minutes, you take it down to NAPA and have them press out the old, press = in the new for a pretty minimal charge. The front axle u-joints are another story as you have to remove the hub, = then later replace it, first repacking bearings and replacing seals. Kind of = a pain and not super quick, but it isn't that big of a deal. > 4 Belts (Cracking)....$60.00 Feh. That's one of those things YOU can do (like changing your oil, chan= ging your brake pads/shoes). New belts probably cost half this from pep boys.= Buy a $16 Haynes manual and follow the instructions and feel the sense of accomplishment and freedom wash over you. :) That's if they were really cracking in the first place. You can inspect = that yourself too, following the Haynes manual, front section under Maintenanc= e. > LABOR TO INSTALL: > Install Brake shoes (The lil diaphram was leaking too and needs = > replaced)....$99.00 > Install Wheel Cylinders (RF,RR)....$60.00 Absurd! This is why I do my own brakes. Brake places rake in so much mo= ney for what amounts to a ridiculously simple job. I'm in the wrong field of= work, apparantly. > Install Tranny Mount....$71.50 You've got to be kidding me. What are these monkeys getting paid per hou= r? = Must be astronomical. > Install 3 U Joints.......$120.00 Very high if front/rear driveshaft, a little high if axle ujoints. > Install Belts...$75.00 $75 to install freaking belts!?!?!? That is insane! It's a simple matte= r of undoing a few bolts to loosen the pulley-driven accessories then putting = on the belts and readjusting. I would say this is a half-hour job. So they're billing you $150/hr ?! = Good grief--for that kind of hourly rate, hire your LAWYER to install your belts--he'll probably do a better job anyway. > Roughly $750.00 plus the tires they want to get outta me... > K Guys and Gals, everytime I try and fix my Jeep I spend twice what > I should = Try about 10 times! I'm hoping I'm reading this right and you asked for advice BEFORE having = the work done!! Don't take your truck to Big O or any other big chain mecha= nic shop (Firestone, Pep Boys, Midas, etc). I've found the majority of these= shops to have too many incompetent employees, charge too much, and 'find'= a lot of stuff wrong with your vehicle that probably wasn't wrong before yo= u dropped off the keys. A lot of these places give honest, hardworking, talented mechanics a very= bad name! Moreover, repair costs like that makes so many people sick of owni= ng their FSJs. I do my own work and in spite of all my screw ups it is well= worth it and ultimately much cheaper. Bottom line, run away with your Jeep and don't look back!! They may try to feed you some line on the way out the door to keep you th= ere. = Don't listen, drive away--you drove there safely, didn't you? Then ask around for recommendations on small, honest, reputable mechanics= =2E = They're out there. Find a guy who knows about FSJs if possible. It'll m= ake a big difference if you find a good mechanic you can trust. Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:03:11 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: U-joints >The u-joint itself costs $17 for the premium model at NAPA. About $7 at >Autozone. They're marking you up quite a bit. What kind of u-joints are they >using and do they have a lifetime warranty as the NAPA/Autozone parts do? I'd open one of the same part number up in each location, NAPA and Autozone and count the bearings and look at the specs... I've done the cheaper U-joints and had them wear out very, very soon. Do NOT go cheap on the U-joints. I typically pay the dealer for the U-joints... it's not worth the hassle of redoing them. Trust me... You're better off spending $10 or MORE for the BEST quality u-joints you can find.... john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:57:46 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: jeep parts At 10:08 AM 3/10/00 -0800, James Blair wrote: >(John forgot to add what year your Jeep was! :^) john didn't forget, john doesn't know either, what, you think I'd withhold information? :) I guess it would make it more challenging that way wouldn't it... kind of like a game show... guess we could call it "stump the wrench..." john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:09:35 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: franchised shops... >From: Michael Shimniok >Don't take your truck to Big O or any other big chain mechanic >shop (Firestone, Pep Boys, Midas, etc). I've found the majority of these >shops to have too many incompetent employees, charge too much, and 'find' a >lot of stuff wrong with your vehicle that probably wasn't wrong before you >dropped off the keys. > >Bottom line, run away with your Jeep and don't look back!! > >They may try to feed you some line on the way out the door to keep you there. >Don't listen, drive away--you drove there safely, didn't you? > >Then ask around for recommendations on small, honest, reputable mechanics. >They're out there. Find a guy who knows about FSJs if possible. It'll make a >big difference if you find a good mechanic you can trust. Well put. I agree. Find a small independent. It's hard. Asking people isn't always the best way either... most people are led to believe they have the best wrench in town, but may pay more than they should... It's so hard to find a good shop... and even good shops drop the ball every now and then... But I agree with Michael, AVOID FRANCHISED OUTLETS. Midas almost killed me (actually others in the little japanese imports I barely missed) after a "free" brake check on my 67 Wagoneer... they didn't put the brakes back where they were and the master cylinder blew out going down a big hill... Midas also let my friend leave with his O2 sensor dangling and a large hole in his exhaust pipe after he refused to authorize a $300 repair on a cracked pipe... so they just left the hole open!!!! john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 100 11:35:10 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: U-joints I agree with John. Quality costs more than junk and is worth it for me. For U-Joints I like Spicer. Its all Six-States uses (for those how aren't familiar with six-states they are a highly regarded drive-line shop amoung 4-wheelers). I bought some from them a few weeks ago for I think about $13 each. I don't know the price for sure and I threw out the slip. Lifetime warrenty does not mean it is a better part. - -brad > >The u-joint itself costs $17 for the premium model at NAPA. About $7 at > >Autozone. They're marking you up quite a bit. What kind of u-joints are > they > >using and do they have a lifetime warranty as the NAPA/Autozone parts do? > > I'd open one of the same part number up in each location, NAPA and Autozone > and count the bearings and look at the specs... I've done the cheaper > U-joints and had them wear out very, very soon. Do NOT go cheap on the > U-joints. I typically pay the dealer for the U-joints... it's not worth > the hassle of redoing them. Trust me... You're better off spending $10 > or MORE for the BEST quality u-joints you can find.... > > john ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:19:17 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: jeep parts I wrote: >>First thing I would suggest is check the oil level in the rear axle (John forgot to add what year your Jeep was! :^) Robert wrote: >It's a 1971 wagoneer with a 360 engine. It has automatic transmission, 3 speed. It says 'hydramatic' on the cover. That's all I know about it right now. A: That's a universal Turbo Hydramatic 400, built by GM for Jeep (and others) with an adapter plate to fit the 360 engine. It could be a D20 or some one may have put a Qyadratrack in (Is there an Edrive switch in the glovebox?) FWIW, there is one for sale near me for $400 with the Buick 350 in it, and D20 transfercase (pics are on my photopoint site in my sig file) >I checked the oil in the rear axle. I only saw a plug on the back side, which I assumed was the plug where you put the oil in, but I didn't see a plug on the bottom, where you could let out oil. I used to drive a mercedes that had a system like that. I guess I have to take off the whole cover and put a new gasket in when I want to change oil? A: Or you could use a suction hose through the plug hole (if the oil isn't too badly contaminated with water and grey colored) I would suggest 80w-90 oil for it, since it's probably a high miler, as the synthetic oil will likely leak out on an older axle. >Anyway, as soon as I loosened the plug, oil was pouring out, so it's not dry. It's not leaking either. A: As long as it isn't grey, that's a good sign! >>and Universal joints. (Make sure the bolts that hold the driveshaft are tight too!) Does it change with speed? >It becomes audible at about 50 mph. Its a deep humming sound that makes the whole car vibrate (so it's nothing small). Its not ongoing, but more pulsating, it gets softer and louder in a rate of about 60 cycles a minute. It goes on when I take my foot from the gas, and it's not there when the jeep is idling. It seems to be only in the third gear. but maybe the humming is just not audible at lower speeds. When I got the jeep the transmission oil was pretty low (It leaks a bit). So it could be that the transmission is damaged, but it shifts o.k.. A: To make sure I have this right. It's there when you take your foot off the gas while driving, AND when you push the gas while driving, but not when the engine matches the wheel RPMs? That's transfercase or diff or U joints. With the truck in neutral, and ebrake on,wheels blocked, try moving the shaft up and down at the front and back, then try twisting to see if the joint has any slop in it. Is this sudden or since you owned it? The other thing that can make it do the vibration and noise is if someone takes apart the driveshaft at the slip joint, and reassembles incorrectly! >>If only speed affects it, then it could be a wheel bearing or whiny rear end. >Could you explain what a wheel bearing is? For some parts I don't know the english word yet. A: The bearing is the rollers that the shaft spins on. I haven't spoke or written Dutch since I was very young, but the word Radlager comes to mind? (since Lager is German for bearings, I guess that's why people go to the bar to get lubricated? LOL!) >>(mine was run out of oil {thanks to Q-No-Lube in Smokey Point who is being sued by me as we speak} and sounds like a Jumbo 747 on takeoff at 60-70 mph!) If it varies with the amount you push the gas pedal, again it could be worn gears, or the output bearing of the transfercase. >It seems to get a little less when I release the gas pedal, but not much. Any suggestions would be very welcome! Thanks for the information, it's really hard to find people who know jeeps out here,as practically noone drives them out here, you see an occasional CJ out here, but wagoneers are too expensive taxwise, thanks! Robert A: We're here to help! That's how we all learn about things in the long run. (It's a poor day when I don't learn at least 1 new thing a day! Trouble is I forget the other things I already learned!) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #770 *************************