From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Mar 20 10:33:36 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, March 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 782 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Fun with Rez fsj: Re: small-block vs. big-block Re: fsj: 360, Small block or Big? Re: fsj: '77 J10 Re: fsj: RE: Exhaust manifolds wanted fsj: RE: Exhaust Question Re: fsj: blocks Re: fsj: 360, Small block or Big? Re: fsj: Fun with Rez Re: fsj: RE: Exhaust manifolds wanted fsj: Question about warm starting problems fsj: Re: '77 J10 fsj: a doc / john reunion scheduled for April... fsj: 77 Wagoneer for sale - Seattle area fsj: Re: QT vs. DANA 20 Re: fsj: Re: QT vs. DANA 20 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:05:21 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: Fun with Rez UrbFarmer-at-aol.com writes: >> Is the 360 considered a small block or a big block motor? Seems smaller and seems to rev pretty high without problems. << I call it a "mid-block." It has the same bore spacing as a Mopar B/RB block (a.k.a. 383, 400, 440 and 426s to name a few), but it has the block= deck height about a .10" more than a small-block Chevy. It would have bee= n nice if the deck height was closer to 10". Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 19-Mar-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:04:54 EST From: OrigamiTB-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: small-block vs. big-block In a message dated 3/18/2000 8:15:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, UrbFarmer asked: > Is the 360 considered a small block or a big block motor? > Seems smaller and seems to rev pretty high without problems. Definitely small-block. A former (now deceased) neighbour's brother owned a '68 Mercury Cougar (X7, I think was the designation), a beautiful car with a 390 V-8 that was about half again bigger than the 390 in my AMX (same size as the 360); and the 383 V-8 in my brother's '64 Plymouth Fury is bigger still. ++ Cornel Ormsby ++ sometimes less is more ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:25:42 -0500 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: Re: fsj: 360, Small block or Big? > A: I got back from BC too late last night to join in (I've been gone > since noon friday if anyone noticed?) I noticed you were gone. You have been quiet - even when I purposely baited you (look for a message that mentions a green FSJ). Besides, you have been causing lots of trouble on the IFSJA list - without even being subscribed! Did you and the kids have a good weekend? Did you manage to steer clear of the "Blair Witch" and her twelve-cylinder broom? Ray ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:46:17 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: '77 J10 A: It'll be a TH400 with the Borg Warner 1339 quadratrack transfercase. If you look up from the bottom, behind the motor mount, the numbers there will tell you if it's a 360 or 401 (or another AMC engine swapped in) Vince wrote: I'm a little excited, it does have auto trans. So that would be a quadratrac? What transfer case did they come with? --Vince In a message dated 3/12/00 3:27:45 PM Central Standard Time, Carnuck-at-webtv.net writes: A: It could be a 401 or 360 and if it's auto, it's TH400 QT, or a 4speed =A0whatever xfer (D20?). =A0Vince wrote: =A0I've got a line on a truck back home in Iowa. =A0 A slightly cancerous =A0box but good looking cab '77 J-10. Not sure what the drivetrain is. It =A0has a V-8 that looks like the 360 in my wagoneer. Owner says it has a 4 =A0barrel carb and manifold. I want it real bad. =A0Can anyone tell me what the tranny and transfer case options were in =A0this vehicle? =A0This would be my 2nd FSJ if the deal goes through..... --Vince =A0'81 Wag =A0'77 J-10 I hope ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:35:09 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Exhaust manifolds wanted A: Sorry, been in BC the last 2 days, and I'm catching up in reverse order (I do them newest to oldest, so I skip already fully answered questions) Firegum is just a brand name of exhause cement we used in the muffler shops (I worked for a shop that became Midas after I left). As for how long it lasts, I did Elmo over a year ago, and my '68 Plymouth 15 years ago. I would suggest getting the heads shaved on the exhaust side if they come off again (you're trying to match 2 surfaces!) I wrote: Did you try header gaskets with firegum? That's what I use usually. =A0=A0Rob wrote: =A0Hi Guys and Gals: =A0=A0It seems that when I blew my head gasket a while back (and overheated severely several times), I have warped my exhaust manifolds to the point they can seat properly, >> I havent even heard of it but it might be worth shot. IF the manifolds are warped Id like to replace em though. How long would that stuff last? Rob ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:26:02 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: RE: Exhaust Question At 09:41 AM 3/19/00 -0800, Dan Starc wrote: >Thanks much for the tips! >I'll give them a shot...did you feel any differences between the Summit >and the JCWhitney cats? Are these cats "universal"? none whatsoever, both came with the same federal certification paperwork. The only difference is the inlet, outlet and sizes. Otherwise, yes, they are universal. I highly recommend the high flow cats. I picked up power on both of my Jeeps by switching. Here's some info that might help: http://wagoneers.com/john/JEEP/ultimate.html (scroll down to the exhausting part... DATE TIME ELAPSED TIME TO 60MPH 5/2/97 0920 16.05 seconds 5/2/97 1120 14.76 seconds Old Blue's before and after times... only difference was a high flow cat and free flowing muffler... same tailpipe and so on! 8% improvement for about $225! john >Thanks again! > >Dan > >-----Original Message----- >From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 9:22 PM >To: danstarc-at-aa.net >Cc: Scott Cohen; Paul Weitlauf; John O'Brien; Greg A Kovach; Bill Van >Tuyl; Alan Chung >Subject: Re: Exhaust Question > > > >I did a high flow cat, once from Summit, once from JC Whitney, both >around $100 plus or minus. Easy install. > >I did a dynomax initially, but it rattled apart and I replaced it with >a flow master... much nicer. > >Airport welding installed the muffler for me, around $30 or so... > >I'm sure they'd install the cat and a flowmaster you brought in for around >$60 or so, or they'd make a custom exhaust system with nice smooth bends >for less than two bills, they may even have mufflers and cats there, but >I'd highly recommend the high flow cat! Amazing power difference on the >little wagoneer! > >Airport welding is by the Snohomish Airport, closed sun/mon... I've >had great luck with them for more than 15 years! I've had custom high >perf >exhaust systems fabricated on several rigs... they even put a dual exhaust >on my chevy luv that had an interesting transplant.... (the bumper sticker >was funny too... "I may be slow, but I'm ahead of you".) Funny thing is >most folks didn't have time to read it before I was gone... ;) > >ttyl, >john > >At 09:16 PM 3/18/00 -0800, Dan Starc wrote: >>Hi Folks >>I may be in need for a new cat and muffler...how much should I expect to >>pay for my Cherokee '89? I got a $380 quoted installed and I did not like >>it... - ----------------------------------------------------- http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/ To order 1-800-956-5695 customer# 283461 Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:29:49 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: blocks At 03:05 PM 3/19/00 -0500, Michael Baxter wrote: >I call it a "mid-block." that's not what I call it... ;) with a block and tackle a mid-shipman might call it an anchor... ;) How do I really feel about the 360? rofl... Long live my straight 6's. john - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/83stepside/ (Superdawg) http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Jx000s/marks-67-J3000/ (son's FSJ) http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:45:31 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 360, Small block or Big? A: I had to wait 3 hours Sat while she tore my youngest a new one before sending him down for the Spring Break. The broom needs a spare tire she informed me (don't have any 13" tires no more!) I heard I was fecal stirring over there, w/o being there anymore. A LOT of people were getting tired of no-one answering their questions! I wrote: I got back from BC too late last night to join in (I've been gone since noon friday if anyone noticed?) Ray wrote: I noticed you were gone. You have been quiet - even when I purposely baited you (look for a message that mentions a green FSJ). Besides, you have been causing lots of trouble on the IFSJA list - without even being subscribed! Did you and the kids have a good weekend? Did you manage to steer clear of the "Blair Witch" and her twelve-cylinder broom? Ray ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:03:48 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Fun with Rez A: It also has the same bore spacing and crank length as a Buick 455. Vince wrote: Is the 360 considered a small block or a big block motor? Seems smaller and seems to rev pretty high without problems. << I call it a "mid-block." It has the same bore spacing as a Mopar B/RB block (a.k.a. 383, 400, 440 and 426s to name a few), but it has the block deck height about a .10" more than a small-block Chevy. It would have been nice if the deck height was closer to 10". =A0=A0Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 19-Mar-2000 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:45:05 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Exhaust manifolds wanted So B4 buying used manifolds, I should shave the ones I have AGAIN and use firegum AND gaskets, right? Rob Carnuck-at-webtv.net writes: << Firegum is just a brand name of exhause cement we used in the muffler shops (I worked for a shop that became Midas after I left). As for how long it lasts, I did Elmo over a year ago, and my '68 Plymouth 15 years ago. I would suggest getting the heads shaved on the exhaust side if they come off again (you're trying to match 2 surfaces!) >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:48:28 EST From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Question about warm starting problems Ok all, I had warm starting probs b4 and they're back. Have replaced the starter, starter "switch", cables and i'm stumped. BTW, when it does happen (A real lugging sound as if theres no juice in the battery), I notice the "battery guage" on the dash goes way red and takes a minute b4 settling down to center. Any ideas? I have no idea what the Battery Guage thingy is called nor do i know how to test my alternator...help me mr wizard. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 23:49:07 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: '77 J10 > Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:27:33 -0800 (PST) > From: john > A 77 J10 with an AT would be a QT. The AT was optional, but it came > standard with the QT when it came. If it is a 401, then it came std > with an AT / QT setup... so says the 77 Tech Svc manual... > > The only way you could get the Dana 20 was with a manual... Although... a Dana 20 would be an easy swap since they were available behind the TH400 in previous years. SuperKen, among others, has said that driveline differences are minimal between Q-trac and Dana 20. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:16:29 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: a doc / john reunion scheduled for April... Finally heard from Dennis (doc). He's working in Melbourne instead of Orlando, but will be there on the weekend. He's doing great. I'm looking forward to seeing Timex and his wife's XJ Cherokee (2wd). I'll post the pix of Timex from Orlando. :) The beauty of a laptop, a digital camera and the internet. later, john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 08:51:22 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: 77 Wagoneer for sale - Seattle area my old 77 Wagoneer is for sale... contact Chip Schmeets at chip-at-schmeets.com >Yup, it runs great, starts right up and drives fine too. It just shifts >wierd b/c there is no kick-down cable. > >Here is copy for the post to the FSJ list: >xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >Hi all, > I have a 1977 Wagoneer (360, QT, 400, dual tanks) for sale in Bellingham. >It runs great but needs a few minor repairs. It drives and I drove it from >Everett to Bellingham without incident. I originally got it from John (Hi >John!) Anyway, it needs a kick-down cable, front brake rotors, a steering >column (the current one's tilt mechanism is loose and I have the new column >already), the instrument cluster re-assembled and a new rear window motor. >The fuel gauge needs to be repaired, which is why the cluster is apart. >Apart from those small things the truck is in great shape. I replaced the >carpet, headliner and a bunch of seals. Comes with a bunch of spare parts. > >This truck has a lot of potential. With a bit of work (I have no time with >my new job) this can be a great truck. > >I Will selll for $1200 OBO or trade for something more portable. >Chip >chip-at-schmeets.com >425-881-0373 >206-284-4400 > >xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > >You know the details on the truck, so add in whatever you feel is >appropriate. it is in bellingham at a friends house. I dont have any room to >park it at the new house. I just bought a Mercedes. I am also selling my >1985 Honda Accord if you know anyone who wants one. >~CS It has a new carb on it as well. FOUR BARREL. :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:11:17 -0600 From: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com Subject: fsj: Re: QT vs. DANA 20 Correct me if I am wrong. (making a few assumptions here) Doesn't the Quadra Trac transfer case use a band/chain while the DANA 20 uses all gears? Didn't this have something to do with the differentiation between the front and rear wheel? The Quadra Trac was designed for full time four wheel drive, no 4 Hi, 4Lo or 2 Hi. Some(all ?)did have a button/knob that allowed locking of differentiation between the front and rear axles. Quadra Trac Vehicles, since they were full time 4WD, didn't have locking hubs up front. Did vehicles with the DANA 20 have locking hubs? If so, would this cause problems with swapping between the Quadra Trac and DANA 20s? My J-4600 is automatic transmission with the Quadra Trac. The differential in the rear axle is centered, but I have seen Wagoneers of the same year (?) that had the rear differential off center. I wasn't able to crawl under and take a look, but what is the deal on that? Sorry to revisit this issue but I'm not sure what the final answer was on the Quadra Trac Fluid. (Source) Is it on the tech page? I also have a line on "NEW ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT TURBO 400 HYDROMATIC TRANSMISSION WITH CONVERTER... NEVER BEEN INSTALLED" Is it worth while to buy this as a back up to what I already have? What is it worth? Later, Jamie Phillips '73 J4600 '77 F250 home email: jphil78888-at-aol.com work email: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com Brazzadog-at-aol .com To: fsj-at-digest.net Sent by: cc: owner-fsj-at-dig Subject: fsj: Re: '77 J10 est.net 03/19/2000 10:49 PM Please respond to Brazzadog > Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:27:33 -0800 (PST) > From: john > A 77 J10 with an AT would be a QT. The AT was optional, but it came > standard with the QT when it came. If it is a 401, then it came std > with an AT / QT setup... so says the 77 Tech Svc manual... > > The only way you could get the Dana 20 was with a manual... Although... a Dana 20 would be an easy swap since they were available behind the TH400 in previous years. SuperKen, among others, has said that driveline differences are minimal between Q-trac and Dana 20. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 ********* Internet E-mail Confidentiality Disclaimer ********** This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify Underwriters Laboratories Inc. at e-mail_Disclaimer-at-us.ul.com. UL does not accept liability for any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in the contents of this message or any attachments that arise as a result of e-mail transmission. ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:24:46 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: QT vs. DANA 20 At 11:11 AM 3/20/00 -0600, Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com wrote: > >Correct me if I am wrong. (making a few assumptions here) > >Doesn't the Quadra Trac transfer case use a band/chain while the DANA 20 >uses all gears? chain vs. gears, yes > >Didn't this have something to do with the differentiation between the front >and rear wheel? there are a set of cone clutches in the QT that allows it to slip a bit on hard surfaces so you don't get binding... > >The Quadra Trac was designed for full time four wheel drive, no 4 Hi, 4Lo >or 2 Hi. Some(all ?)did have a button/knob that allowed locking of >differentiation between the front and rear axles. the original QT had no low range, but it was an option, later QT's had low range. They also have an emergency lock to lock output front/rear. No 2wd mode at all. > >Quadra Trac Vehicles, since they were full time 4WD, didn't have locking >hubs up front. Did vehicles with the DANA 20 have locking hubs? If so, >would this cause problems with swapping between the Quadra Trac and DANA >20s? yes, no hubs, not really... you could either remove them or leave them locked in. NOt a big deal either way. I'm considering going to an NP219 in Superdawg, and he has hubs... not really worried about it... > >My J-4600 is automatic transmission with the Quadra Trac. The differential >in the rear axle is centered, but I have seen Wagoneers of the same year >(?) that had the rear differential off center. I wasn't able to crawl >under and take a look, but what is the deal on that? the pickups had a wider axle and longer wheelbase... no need to offset the pumpkin. > >Sorry to revisit this issue but I'm not sure what the final answer was on >the Quadra Trac Fluid. (Source) >Is it on the tech page? variety of sources... but use the QT fluid. > >I also have a line on "NEW ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT TURBO 400 HYDROMATIC >TRANSMISSION WITH >CONVERTER... NEVER BEEN INSTALLED" > >Is it worth while to buy this as a back up to what I already have? What is >it worth? TH400s are pretty common, the issue is whether it has the output shaft for the QT, if it does, it's worth having. TH400s will sell for $300 to $500 or so, guessing... A qt can go for as little as $150 to as much as $750 depending on who/where and when... ;) > >Later, > >Jamie Phillips > >'73 J4600 >'77 F250 > >home email: jphil78888-at-aol.com >work email: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com > > > > > > > > > > Brazzadog-at-aol > .com To: fsj-at-digest.net > Sent by: cc: > owner-fsj-at-dig Subject: fsj: Re: '77 J10 > est.net > > > 03/19/2000 > 10:49 PM > Please > respond to > Brazzadog > > > > > > >> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:27:33 -0800 (PST) >> From: john > >> A 77 J10 with an AT would be a QT. The AT was optional, but it came >> standard with the QT when it came. If it is a 401, then it came std >> with an AT / QT setup... so says the 77 Tech Svc manual... >> >> The only way you could get the Dana 20 was with a manual... > >Although... a Dana 20 would be an easy swap since they were available >behind >the TH400 in previous years. SuperKen, among others, has said that >driveline >differences are minimal between Q-trac and Dana 20. > >Ben Williams >'71 Wagoneer >'78 F-250 4x4 > > > > > > > >********* Internet E-mail Confidentiality Disclaimer ********** > >This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential >information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not >disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this >message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail >message in error, please delete the e-mail and any attachments >and notify Underwriters Laboratories Inc. at >e-mail_Disclaimer-at-us.ul.com. > >UL does not accept liability for any errors, omissions, corruption >or virus in the contents of this message or any attachments that >arise as a result of e-mail transmission. >************************************************************************** > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #782 *************************