From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri May 19 15:10:51 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, May 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 860 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Leaky Gasket fsj: Tim's questions on axles... fsj: Re: garage update... reporting from Snohomish... fsj: new look... fsj: Re: fsj: fsj: 1981 Wagoneer fsj: Re: fsj: Shop negotiations fsj: 1981 Wagoneer fsj: Re: 1981 Wagoneer fsj: Anyone coming to Snohomish swapmeet tomorrow? Re: [Re: [fsj: Circa 1979 NOS Q-T and 4WD emblems]] fsj: SUVs fsj: Re: xj: Re: 44 pages!!! fsj: I'm selling Elmo! ('83 Cherokee 4 dr for sale) fsj: Re: Shop negotiations Re: fsj: Tim's questions on axles... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:17:07 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Leaky Gasket Hmm, well I just put it in and filled it up and it leaks like a sieve.... crap. Anyone know what it's supposed to torque to? The FSM shows 150 in/lbs, but that feels like a lot to me. I set the wrench for 120 and ... well it leaks like a sieve. No, not ft/lbs, tho' at this hour its a fair question!! The pan's all buggered up anyway so I've gotta look for one of those.... Looks like the edge of it hit something... .but what? I'll never know likely... Dealer only part? Guess I'll find out tomorrow. I've gotta get this thing buttoned up so the wife can have the XJ back. It goes on a road trip Sat. for her to start the first half of our split=duty vacation.... if all else goes well. Thanks for all the help folks, good advice all; but so far, no joy in Waggie land... JeepNut Michael Baxter wrote: > Michael Shimniok writes: > > >> Err... so... should one NOT treat the cork gasket??? > << > > Just not cover the whole cork gasket with silicone. It is okay to use a > light coat of silicone to glue it to the rail or the cover/pan. James > already mentioned this plus he mentioned on valve covers and oil pans to > use a ball peen hammer on a block of wood, or such, to beat the area around > the bolt holes flat again in case the fasteners have been over-torqued in > the past. All good advice. > > The main objective is to leave the inside of the cork gasket free of > any silicone so oil can soak into the gasket. It is also normal for it to > look "wet" around a cork gasket. There will always be an oil film present > on the block, case or pan above and below where the gasket resides. Just > not supposed to drip. > > All my cork gaskets except the tranny pan and the governor cover are > original on my '79 Chero. and none of them leak. A cork gasket will last a > long time when properly handled. > > Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter > From Reno, NV USA on 18-May-2000 - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:05:57 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Tim's questions on axles... On Thu, 18 May 2000, Tim Fisher wrote: >-->John,I can get a deal on a 8 lug W/T dana 44. Is it wider than the "normal" dana44 on my wag??also ti appears the brakes are no bigger than the 6 lug model. Can I fit 8 lug 15 inch wheels on this W/T axle? 8 lug? from what? If it's from a J10, now, the 15" rims won't clear the brakes... The older J20's had 16 or 16.5" rims... if I'm understanding correctly... Either way, if it's a good deal you'll be able to find the wheels without too much grief... I'm gonna forward this to the FSJ list... I'm not sure and don't have time to research it right now... ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:39:53 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: garage update... reporting from Snohomish... On Fri, 19 May 2000, TLynn wrote: >-->Why not put the "garage on skids" out of the sun(garden spot) and move it >-->over it when garden season is done...that way you won't have to til lwhen it >-->is time to plant again! Just pull it out of the way and PRESTO...instant >-->garden! garden season starts in May and ends in April in Western Washington... ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:06:44 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: new look... http://www.wagoneers.com/ reworked the format... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 05:20:00 -0600 From: bradley.a.berry-at-lmco.com Subject: fsj: NOS stands for "New Old Stock." In other words, spare parts by the original manufacturer, which have been sitting on the shelf of some company warehouse for umpteen years. It is a very common term in the restoration industry, and you should be able to reasonably assume that you are getting a genuine Jeep part. On the other hand, every so often you will run into some dirtbag who plays on this faith. I recently bought a NORS water pump from someone on e-bay. I emailed him to ask what NORS stood for, as I hadn't seen it in 13 years of buying resto parts. He said it was "New Old Replacement Stock." I thought about it, and assumed that he was either new to the hobby, or used to a different terminology and that I was getting a MOPAR part. (Notice the assumed there.) Well, I got some cheap Nakamichi knock off piece of crap which has no place on an original Road Runner. When I politely asked what this was, and why didn't it have MOPAR stamps on it, I got a huffy email back explaining that this is what NORS is. "It is an aftermarket replacement!" (I obviously wasn't the first to question his new term he invented to give credibility/value to a worthless part.) Now someone explain this to me. If I'm buying a el cheapo non-original part, why would I care if it was "old" or not? Who cares if this incorrect piece of junk was built in 1970 or 2000, it is still the wrong part. I thought about the long letter to explain my feelings about his ethics, but decided that it wouldn't do any good, and chalked it up as a learning experience. Now, after I've bored you with all of that, all vendors, and pretty much all hobbyists will give you the factory part if it says NOS. Brad Berry 88 GW > ------------------------------------------------------- > > "It is an ethical responsibility of the informed to muddy the > tranquil waters of ignorance with the stick of knowledge." > > And, when they really beg for it, to whack them a good one with said > stick. > > > > Date: 18 May 00 17:10:16 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Circa 1979 NOS Q-T and 4WD emblems] Could someone please tell me what "NOS" stands for? I keep seeing it all= over the place and my pea-brain has yet to decipher the meaning. Michael Michael Baxter wrote: > There are some NOS emblems in Australia listed on Ebay. These were in u= se > on FSJs in 1979 and probably go back to at least '74-76: > = > Brad > ------------------------------------------------------- > > "It is an ethical responsibility of the informed to muddy the > tranquil waters of ignorance with the stick of knowledge." > > And, when they really beg for it, to whack them a good one with said > stick. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:43:49 -0700 From: Thunderbird Subject: Re: fsj: bradley.a.berry-at-lmco.com wrote: > Now someone explain this to me. If I'm buying a el cheapo non-original > part, why would I care if it was "old" or not? Who cares if this incorrect > piece of junk was built in 1970 or 2000, it is still the wrong part. I > thought about the long letter to explain my feelings about his ethics, but > decided that it wouldn't do any good, and chalked it up as a learning > experience. That is when you include an explanation in his comment section so someone else doesn't get burned... Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird LX 4.6 V8/Sport "Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order." - --Ed Howdershelt ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:34:56 EDT From: Grtdaneguy-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: 1981 Wagoneer Well, here it is, I have too sell my Wagoneer. It's a 1981 Wagoneer V-8 360, everything works except the A/C need to be recharged, it has a front steel brush/bumper guard, a rear tire mount for the spare. The engine is in good condition, it just needs a tune up because it is not driven everyday. The trannie is in good shape, and it has manual locking hubs (4 wheel drive works). The body is in fairly good condition (Wagoneer tan) but does need a paint job and minor body work, interior is clean, the seats are worn in the front. All power inside works, rear window works from both the dash switch and the rear key switch. All power seats work, all windows work. Make me an offer or e-mail me with any questions (I will try to get pictures) Joe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:51:49 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: As my friends in recovery say "AFOG". "Another F---ing Opportunity to Grow". kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, 19 May, 2000 05:20 Subject: fsj: > NOS stands for "New Old Stock." In other words, spare parts by the original > manufacturer, which have been sitting on the shelf of some company warehouse > for umpteen years. It is a very common term in the restoration industry, > and you should be able to reasonably assume that you are getting a genuine > Jeep part. On the other hand, every so often you will run into some dirtbag > who plays on this faith. I recently bought a NORS water pump from someone > on e-bay. I emailed him to ask what NORS stood for, as I hadn't seen it in > 13 years of buying resto parts. He said it was "New Old Replacement Stock." > I thought about it, and assumed that he was either new to the hobby, or used > to a different terminology and that I was getting a MOPAR part. (Notice the > assumed there.) Well, I got some cheap Nakamichi knock off piece of crap > which has no place on an original Road Runner. When I politely asked what > this was, and why didn't it have MOPAR stamps on it, I got a huffy email > back explaining that this is what NORS is. "It is an aftermarket > replacement!" (I obviously wasn't the first to question his new term he > invented to give credibility/value to a worthless part.) > > Now someone explain this to me. If I'm buying a el cheapo non-original > part, why would I care if it was "old" or not? Who cares if this incorrect > piece of junk was built in 1970 or 2000, it is still the wrong part. I > thought about the long letter to explain my feelings about his ethics, but > decided that it wouldn't do any good, and chalked it up as a learning > experience. > > Now, after I've bored you with all of that, all vendors, and pretty much all > hobbyists will give you the factory part if it says NOS. > > Brad Berry > 88 GW > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > "It is an ethical responsibility of the informed to muddy the > > tranquil waters of ignorance with the stick of knowledge." > > > > And, when they really beg for it, to whack them a good one with said > > stick. > > > > > > > > > Date: 18 May 00 17:10:16 MDT > From: Michael Shimniok > Subject: Re: [fsj: Circa 1979 NOS Q-T and 4WD emblems] > > Could someone please tell me what "NOS" stands for? I keep seeing it all= > over > the place and my pea-brain has yet to decipher the meaning. > > Michael > > Michael Baxter wrote: > > There are some NOS emblems in Australia listed on Ebay. These were in u= > se > > on FSJs in 1979 and probably go back to at least '74-76: > > = > > Brad > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > "It is an ethical responsibility of the informed to muddy the > > tranquil waters of ignorance with the stick of knowledge." > > > > And, when they really beg for it, to whack them a good one with said > > stick. > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:04:10 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Shop negotiations ...telling lies is a fault in a boy, an art in a lover, an accomplishment in a bachelor, and second-nature in a married man. - ---Helen Rowland ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:06:07 EDT From: Grtdaneguy-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: 1981 Wagoneer Sorry everyone, I'm located in Delaware. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:17:08 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: 1981 Wagoneer > Sorry everyone, I'm located in Delaware. Joe We're sorry, too! kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:00:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Anyone coming to Snohomish swapmeet tomorrow? 3 of us will be there for sure (John M and Ben W and .. um, someone else.. oh yeah! Me! ) I think there is a backroad drive on, so Jerry probably won't be there. I'll probably be driving the XJ I'm trying to sell (I'm pulling the thermostat in a few minutes and driving to Seattle and back to see if it still overheats. I found the fan switch was broken) ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 00 13:05:37 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [Re: [fsj: Circa 1979 NOS Q-T and 4WD emblems]] Dan Black wrote: > Yeah, that. Check out http://www.AcronymFinder.com/ . Specifically, I did. There's a dozen choices. Hopefully someone else already helped m= e narrow it down. Until then I'm guessing it means "New Old Stock" > http://www.AcronymFinder.com/af-query.asp?Acronym=3DNOS&String=3Doff --= note > that in car forums, it also often means "Nitrous Oxide Systems". Don't= Yes, I realize that. Hence my confusion... I grew up reading Hot Rod. Thanks for the URL, Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:33:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: SUVs A: I wrote this in Delphi forums today: SUVs are being blamed for everything from global warming to killing unborn children and I'm sick of it! I came to the website, for the first time and voted in the poll on SUVs. I voted no (and Echatted with several other people who also tried) and received a message that said I had already voted according to their logs. (Almost all the others got the same message, and the ones that didn't voted yes) which to me stinks of a rigged vote! SUV owners are not responsible for the environmental problems caused by their vehicles (How many $30,000 and up units do you see playing in the mud?) and I bet not one of them would complain if the emissions and fuel economy were improved. It's the manufacturers that are to blame. I own 2 full size Jeeps (an '83 Cherokee 4 door, which is really a plain jane Grand Wagoneer, and an '84 J10 pickup truck) which I am upgrading (and already have to some extent) the driveline on. Both are 6 cylinder for fuel economy and longevity, and were 3 speed automatic, which I (and others on the Jeeplists) am upgrading to an overdrive automatic, and LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) to make it more economical and make less emissions (the modifications I have already done allowed me to remove the ancient technology emission devices and run clean enough to pass the state emission tests at the 1995 car levels!) and I get 20 mpg. The state of WA is also a problem because they penalize owners of alternate fuel vehicles $1500 a year (which they claim is lost revenue to road taxes, but by my figuring works out to me having to drive over 150,000 miles per year difference to break even!) My future plans are to include a hybridization of the drivetrain to add an electric motor and regenerative brakes. This is a daily driver, not some futuristic toy. Why do I have them? I have a truck to haul stuff (I need it in my line of work) and the Cherokee hauls stuff, AND full size people (ever tried to stuff 3 full size teens and 2 adults in a midsize car for a 120 mile trip? NOT!) Why do others buy them? SUVs are bought by soccer moms (there are no station wagons anymore) because they are safer than vans or cars in accidents (would you let your child be driven around during rush hour in a Geo or Honda? You would? Don't you love them enough to give them the best protection you can?) It's the idiots with the high powered tiny cars that whip in and out of traffic and cut off the big trucks that are doing deliveries and force them to stop. Then these same idiots slam into others and stop up everything. (I really hate the swoopers that change across ALL the lanes w/o so much as a signal) It's the putt putters in the left lane on the main highways (when it's not an HOV lane, in which case the #2 lane is the fast lane) that cause rush hour problems. Every state requires that on multilane highways the left lane is for passing/higher speed traffic and that slower traffic MUST (by law) move right and allow others to pass. Everyday I see 50-55 mph putt putters driving in the left lane in the 70 mph zone, and creating unsafe driving conditions. When these people get pulled over and ticketed for driving too slow they invariably think it's their "right" to drive at that speed because their tax money built the road! What they fail to realize is it's their "right" to stay in the right lane that is paid for, not to block the left one and the flow of traffic! Then there is Mr "I've got a million things to do at once!" who drives along with a cellphone and is weaving across all lanes of traffic while dialing, and then slowing down to 30 mph in the fast lane, while he is also trying to do a business presentation on his laptop and spilling his latt=E9 all over, as he also handwrites notes and shaves, brushes his teeth or gives himself a sponge bath and changes clothes, while cooking pizza in a microwave in the passenger's seat. (If you think I'm kidding, I can introduce you to a dozen people like this I know personally! I've been tempted to put transponders in their vehicles so I know where not to travel!) I think that cellphones in cars should only be legal with hands free. I have been tempted to build an electronic disruptor with a pencil beam fore and aft that would wipe out cellphone service within 2500 feet, but I'd be afraid of getting cancer from it! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:47:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: xj: Re: 44 pages!!! A: Having been to John's house several times (a couple times in daylight hours!) I think the cure is tear down the old garage, and move the house north as far as legally allowed, then put the garage on the south side and the garden can stay where it is! (I was laughing so hard when I thought of this, I could hardly type!) Maybe John should just cut back into the hill and build his garage there! That way it would be 1/2 underground, stay cool in summer, warm in winter (with an insulated roof) and only have the roof and front doors to keep clean (less maintenance). Whatcha think John? Jeff Ayers wrote: That all sounds fine and dandy, but we all know who takes precedence, don't we? And it aint the garage. I have an attached two car garage on my Wausau home (cheap modular construction) in which the roof is already insulated and one wall abutts the insulated house which means to fully insulate the garage would only take two walls and new insulated doors, but she about bit my head off when I mentioned maybe insulating the garage! And she is the one that complains that I never do enough work on the house! I guess the garage isn't part of the house according to her. So, give and take sounds nice, but we all know it doesn't work that way. :~) Also, in Johns case, sometimes the garden plot can't just be moved. There is the issue of sun and soil as well as aesthetic appeal to be considered. Oh the pleasures of married life. Jeff Sean wrote: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:13:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: I'm selling Elmo! ('83 Cherokee 4 dr for sale) Price will depend on what I do to it before it gets out of here. Starting at $500 for as is, with the spare parts ( a list is coming of all that) and going up. Anyone want to buy the chrome wheels and almost new 31x11.50/15 Wildcat radial LTs for $400? (One open hub cap is missing from the front) They are too wide for Blackie. If someone buys Elmo, they can have them for $300. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:38:32 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Shop negotiations At 12:04 PM 5/19/00 -0600, Kim Smith wrote: >...telling lies is a fault in a boy, an art in a lover, an accomplishment >in a bachelor, and second-nature in a married man. > >---Helen Rowland ur way too cynical... and wise beyond montana... ;) did you say you're coming over this side of the mountains this summer or was that another crazy montanan? :) Life is good... considering the alternatives... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/johnsjeeps.jpg SuperDawg, SuperPup (the little wagoneer), and the J3000 ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------- ...be thou neither a sender nor a receiver of attachments... ...if thou usest a microsoft operating system or email program... ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:54:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Tim's questions on axles... A: If it's a Jeep widetrack axle, it is wider than a NT axle, but the same width as a J truck in the front. J truck rear axle is a little wider than a Cherokee WT (I'm looking for a 3.31 rear axle, or a model 20 housing for my '84 J10) The 8 lug uses the same front calipers but not rotors or rims (obviously since they have 2 extra holes!) Mark (above-the-law) in NY made 15" 8 hole rims fit on his Cherokee, but it was a machinists nightmare! I'm going to 16" 6 lug rims on Blackie (which is why I'm selling the chrome steel 15" rims and tires on it) with 33/10/15 tires (11.5 is too wide for traction in my Jtruck, w/o going to 4WD, and will get worse when I add the stroker motor!) On Thu, 18 May 2000, Tim Fisher wrote: John,I can get a deal on a 8 lug W/T dana 44. Is it wider than the "normal" dana44 on my wag??also ti appears the brakes are no bigger than the 6 lug model. Can I fit 8 lug 15 inch wheels on this W/T axle? 8 lug? from what? If it's from a J10, now, the 15" rims won't clear the brakes... The older J20's had 16 or 16.5" rims... if I'm understanding correctly... Either way, if it's a good deal you'll be able to find the wheels without too much grief... I'm gonna forward this to the FSJ list... I'm not sure and don't have time to research it right now... ;) john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #860 *************************