From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed May 24 14:13:20 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, May 24 2000 Volume 01 : Number 871 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: 6 cyl Jeep carb troubleshooting Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? fsj: D300s in FSJs fsj: Re: D300s in FSJs Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? fsj: M.O.R.E. bombproof mounts fsj: Clifford musings.... Re: fsj: Clifford musings.... Re: fsj: Clifford musings.... fsj: Re: Clifford musings.... Re: fsj: Clifford musings.... fsj: the results are in... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:09:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: 6 cyl Jeep carb troubleshooting A question from allexperts.com: carburator problems: My 1984 CJ7, stock 6 cylinder, runs ok at high rpm, but if you let off, like to stop at a stop sign, it will die, and then it is hard to start. It idles ok, but if you press lightly on the throttle, it will cut out, if you pump it a little, then give it some throttle, it runs fine. It is a 5 speed. Any ideas? A: First check for vacuum leaks at the head/intake gasket (I spray WD40 when the engine is not too hot), then grab ahold of your carb and see if the body twists at all. If it does, get a new base gasket, take the carb off and tighten the screws up from the bottom, then the top down ones and reinstall with the new gasket. Does your vacuum advance diapraghm still work? Is it hooked to the port on the middle of the RH side of carb, next to the choke? If it's hooked direct to intake vacuum, your timing will work in reverse, and cause a bog. What is your engine timing set at? I advance mine until the engine starts to ping (high pitched rattle on hills usually) and back off til it's all gone (make sure your EGR valve is functioning, or you won't be able to take full advantage of the advanced timing w/o ping) A hotter coil helps too. For a stock looking coil, get one from an '80 Ford because while it looks the same, the spark is double the stock Jeep one. Oops! I had another thought! This info is for a 4.2L, and not a 2.8L V6! The V6 has carb base gasket trouble too, and if the timing chain is sloppy it will act up like this too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 100 08:51:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? The stock low range ratio for the NP208 is 2.61:1 not 2.72:1. The NP231 and other newer t-cases have a low range of 2.72:1. The NP208, NP219, NP229, NP228, and D300 all have a stock ratio of 2.61:1. I have heard lots of places that there are clearance problems with the D300 and the TF727, but in 1980 that was the normal configuration for Scouts. It must have something to do with how it is angled (since Scout used a D300 with the D20 mounting pattern it could have been angled differently). I have a D300 and a TF727 so I need to bolt them togehter and see how close it is. I thought the first year Dodge had a LH output t-case in their pickups was in 94 and the last year for NP205s was in 93 which would make all dodge NP205s RH drop?? Are my facts factless (good possibility!)? The mounting pattern or spline count may have changed between the 70s and 80s. Again, I don't know. The NP205 is a very heavy duty gear driven part time case, but unfortunately it only has a low range of around 2:1. I'm not aware of anyone making lower gears for it, but there are kits to stuff the low range gear box from an NP203 between your transmission and an NP205 that gives you a combined low range of about 4:1. - -brad Jim writes: > A: They do exist (3:1) but I don't know who makes them. I believe they > were made for Chevs, and the PO of Elmo had them put in. When I pull the > trans and 208s from Blackie and Elmo, I'll take pics of any differences. > Blackie has the stock 2.72 low, and goes MUCH faster in drive running > in 4 lo than Elmo did, nearly same size tires {30" vs 31"}, same gears > 2.72, but Blackie has a non-lock 727 and Elmo has a lockup 999. > On the dual case set up, someone on the XJ-at-digest list actually has > such a creature (It's hell on driveshafts!) but you wouldn't get a 6:1, > you would get 7.384:1! > (2.72 x 2.72) And yes, the gas tank would have to go in place of the > spare tire. The Dana 300 will clip the 727 pan, unless you notch it > (common swap on CJs) but it's a RH output. > Not sure what gears and stuff are available, but a mid-late 80's? > model Dodge NV205 will also fit (early '80s and late '70s used a NP205 > with a right hand output for those of you that want to run a 727 in a > pre '80 w/o swapping axles! > I was looking for my 727 book earlier to give out some part #s > (lockup spring and check plate kit to push to 55 mph the lockup) One > thing I dug up on 999s is that they and 998s (in Eagles) use the same > valvebody as the 727, but the 904s don't! I can't remember the company, > but lower 1st and 2nd gearsets are available for the 727. I will be > building up a 727 (from non-lock to a lockup) soon, and I will run my > video camera on the whole proceedings. Maybe John M can make it into an > MPEG? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:14:26 -0400 From: "MadMarx" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? Brad, here is a link to a picture of a 727 and a 300 bolted together. http://www.homestead.com/boiros/727auto.html Mark - ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Seevers To: Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 11:51 AM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? > > The stock low range ratio for the NP208 is 2.61:1 not 2.72:1. The NP231 > and other newer t-cases have a low range of 2.72:1. The NP208, NP219, > NP229, NP228, and D300 all have a stock ratio of 2.61:1. > > I have heard lots of places that there are clearance problems with the > D300 and the TF727, but in 1980 that was the normal configuration for Scouts. > It must have something to do with how it is angled (since Scout used a D300 > with the D20 mounting pattern it could have been angled differently). I > have a D300 and a TF727 so I need to bolt them togehter and see how close it > is. > > I thought the first year Dodge had a LH output t-case in their pickups was in > 94 and the last year for NP205s was in 93 which would make all dodge NP205s > RH drop?? Are my facts factless (good possibility!)? The mounting pattern > or spline count may have changed between the 70s and 80s. Again, I don't know. > > The NP205 is a very heavy duty gear driven part time case, but unfortunately > it only has a low range of around 2:1. I'm not aware of anyone making lower > gears for it, but there are kits to stuff the low range gear box from an NP203 > between your transmission and an NP205 that gives you a combined low range of > about 4:1. > > -brad > > Jim writes: > > > A: They do exist (3:1) but I don't know who makes them. I believe they > > were made for Chevs, and the PO of Elmo had them put in. When I pull the > > trans and 208s from Blackie and Elmo, I'll take pics of any differences. > > Blackie has the stock 2.72 low, and goes MUCH faster in drive running > > in 4 lo than Elmo did, nearly same size tires {30" vs 31"}, same gears > > 2.72, but Blackie has a non-lock 727 and Elmo has a lockup 999. > > On the dual case set up, someone on the XJ-at-digest list actually has > > such a creature (It's hell on driveshafts!) but you wouldn't get a 6:1, > > you would get 7.384:1! > > (2.72 x 2.72) And yes, the gas tank would have to go in place of the > > spare tire. The Dana 300 will clip the 727 pan, unless you notch it > > (common swap on CJs) but it's a RH output. > > Not sure what gears and stuff are available, but a mid-late 80's? > > model Dodge NV205 will also fit (early '80s and late '70s used a NP205 > > with a right hand output for those of you that want to run a 727 in a > > pre '80 w/o swapping axles! > > I was looking for my 727 book earlier to give out some part #s > > (lockup spring and check plate kit to push to 55 mph the lockup) One > > thing I dug up on 999s is that they and 998s (in Eagles) use the same > > valvebody as the 727, but the 904s don't! I can't remember the company, > > but lower 1st and 2nd gearsets are available for the 727. I will be > > building up a 727 (from non-lock to a lockup) soon, and I will run my > > video camera on the whole proceedings. Maybe John M can make it into an > > MPEG? > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 100 09:29:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? Mark, Thanks for the pic. I have both in my garage just sitting on a shelf next to each other. No excuse not to try it myself! You can see from the pic that you might have some problems with a double cardon joint at the t-case front output! The fsj front diff may be a little further over to the right than a CJs which could help make some room for the driveshaft. thanks, - -brad Mark writes: > Brad, here is a link to a picture of a 727 and a 300 bolted together. > http://www.homestead.com/boiros/727auto.html > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:48:38 -0400 From: "MadMarx" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? Brad, I will be able to help you with that soon too. I have a 78 wag front end I am going to put in my CJ uncut by mounting the springs outboard of the frame. I am leaving it uncut for just that reason. I own a CJ7, a grand wagoneer parts buggy, and I am working on getting an 80 wag with a 208 and an unbuilt 304 for it for $500. Mark - ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Seevers To: Cc: ; ; ; Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 12:29 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? > Mark, > > Thanks for the pic. I have both in my garage just sitting on a shelf next > to each other. No excuse not to try it myself! > > You can see from the pic that you might have some problems with a double > cardon joint at the t-case front output! The fsj front diff may be a little > further over to the right than a CJs which could help make some room for the > driveshaft. > > thanks, > > -brad > > Mark writes: > > > Brad, here is a link to a picture of a 727 and a 300 bolted together. > > http://www.homestead.com/boiros/727auto.html > > Mark > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 100 11:30:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: fsj: D300s in FSJs Well, here is what I have been thinking. I have an 82 wag with a 360, a 727 and an NP219. I have a 77 or 78 D44 front end (can't remember the year for sure..) that I bought from John M. (or his son actually). I also have a D300. I think I want to put the D300 in and the right hand D44. I may run the 727, but if there are clearance problems with the front driveshaft I may ditch the 727 and go with a T18 or an NP435 4 speed (I really like driving manuals anyway). I'm also thinking pretty seriously about ditching the AMC 360 and going with a 258 or 4.0L six. Or my wife might sell the whole mess some night while I'm asleep! I'm interested in hearing how much room you have the the D300/727 combo and the wag front end! - -brad > Brad, I will be able to help you with that soon too. I have a 78 wag front > end I am going to put in my CJ uncut by mounting the springs outboard of the > frame. I am leaving it uncut for just that reason. I own a CJ7, a grand > wagoneer parts buggy, and I am working on getting an 80 wag with a 208 and > an unbuilt 304 for it for $500. > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:48:29 -0400 From: "MadMarx" Subject: fsj: Re: D300s in FSJs My friend Keith wants to do the exact same thing as you, except he is using a full-size dodge axle that is stock with SOA. We are cutting down the tubes and rewelding the knuckles on now to make it wag width. We should be able to do this with no problem. I had to clearance my tranny pan a little with a ball peen hammer, but I just barely rub now. I can ramp about 800 or so so the driveshaft moves quite a bit. It will be at least 3 weeks before I can get working on mine. I have the rosser roundup to go on this weekend, and the 8th through the 11th is a Jeep-l trip to Tellico. Mark - ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Seevers To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:30 PM Subject: D300s in FSJs > > Well, here is what I have been thinking. I have an 82 wag with a 360, a 727 > and an NP219. I have a 77 or 78 D44 front end (can't remember the year for > sure..) that I bought from John M. (or his son actually). I also have a D300. > I think I want to put the D300 in and the right hand D44. I may run the 727, > but if there are clearance problems with the front driveshaft I may ditch the > 727 and go with a T18 or an NP435 4 speed (I really like driving manuals > anyway). I'm also thinking pretty seriously about ditching the AMC 360 and > going with a 258 or 4.0L six. Or my wife might sell the whole mess some night > while I'm asleep! > > I'm interested in hearing how much room you have the the D300/727 combo and the > wag front end! > > -brad > > > Brad, I will be able to help you with that soon too. I have a 78 wag front > > end I am going to put in my CJ uncut by mounting the springs outboard of the > > frame. I am leaving it uncut for just that reason. I own a CJ7, a grand > > wagoneer parts buggy, and I am working on getting an 80 wag with a 208 and > > an unbuilt 304 for it for $500. > > > > Mark > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:22:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Low gears for NP208 - Do they exist? A: Mea Culpa! I could have sworn it was 2.72 low range on the 208 and not 2.61, but I read it right off the case! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:25:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: M.O.R.E. bombproof mounts A: What about it guys? Think we can round up enough XJ people to tell these guys we need better mounts for our trannies? I wrote: The motor end is covered, now what about the trans? With a stroker motor, they can be torn up on command, so something better is needed ASAP! =A0=A0 Message From: more-at-rifle.net (Chris=A0Overacker) Sorry, we do not have a polyurethane mount for the trans on XJ's. The demand has not been there to justify the R&D, tooling and inventory costs. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 100 13:10:21 -0700 From: "Tom Anhalt" Subject: fsj: Clifford musings.... Hey John, I happened to take a look at the new Clifford Performance website yesterday (http://www.cliffordperformance.com) and saw some interesting stuff. I know you just pulled the clifford manifold off of Superdawgs engine, but did you know that all of the Clifford manifolds are generic, in other words, you buy a seperate mounting plate depending on what kind of carb you are running (2V, 4V, or 4V spreadbore). It's a little late, but you could have gotten a 2V plate for only $40. Also, they state that all intakes need to run their headers as well....they say it won't fit with the stock exhaust manifold. I thought yours was using the old cast iron manifold....do you think it was modified to fit? Just curious. Tom P.S. You really have to check out the intro movie on the Clifford site...really made me crack up...just don't freak out when your browser starts shaking (you'll see what I mean) ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 100 13:16:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Clifford musings.... I think what they say about using their headers only applies if your exhaust manifold mates to the intake manifold (for warmup). There are both versions of exhaust manifolds for the AMC 258, and I'm sure John has the divorced exhaust manifold (right John??). The Clifford intake manifolds have a hot water jacket for heating. - -brad > > Hey John, > I happened to take a look at the new Clifford Performance website yesterday (http://www.cliffordperformance.com) and saw some interesting stuff. I know you just pulled the clifford manifold off of Superdawgs engine, but did you know that all of the Cliff> ord manifolds are generic, in other words, you buy a seperate mounting plate depending on what kind of carb you are running (2V, 4V, or 4V spreadbore). It's a little late, but you could have gotten a 2V plate for only $40. Also, they state that all inta> kes need to run their headers as well....they say it won't fit with the stock exhaust manifold. I thought yours was using the old cast iron manifold....do you think it was modified to fit? > > Just curious. > > Tom > > P.S. You really have to check out the intro movie on the Clifford site...really made me crack up...just don't freak out when your browser starts shaking (you'll see what I mean) ;-) > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:30:20 -0500 From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Clifford musings.... "Tom Anhalt" said: {- P.S. You really have to check out the intro movie on the Clifford site...re {- ally made me crack up...just don't freak out when your browser starts {- shaking (you'll see what I mean) ;-) Cute intro. If you want to adapt the "earthquake" thing for yourself, look at http://dan.black.org/tech/earthquake-orig.html - -- it's not hard to understand or modify. I originally saw it (was it posted here?) on an applet at the beginning of some site that had a bouncing ball that then sped off the window (and caused the browser window to shake). The script in the URL above, as documented, is from javascripts.com . - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know me... But I don't remember smelling _you_ before. -- Smaug - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:41:02 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Clifford musings.... On Wed, 24 May 100, Tom Anhalt wrote: >--> >-->Hey John, >-->I happened to take a look at the new Clifford Performance website yesterday (http://www.cliffordperformance.com) and saw some interesting stuff. I know you just pulled the clifford manifold off of Superdawgs engine, but did you know that all of the C lifford manifolds are generic, in other words, you buy a seperate mounting plate depending on what kind of carb you are running (2V, 4V, or 4V spreadbore). It's a little late, but you could have gotten a 2V plate for only $40. Also, they state that all intakes need to run their headers as well....they say it won't fit with the stock exhaust manifold. I thought yours was using the old cast iron manifold....do you think it was modified to fit? I have the 2v plate, that's why Jim and I were trying to build up on Motorcraft. :) yep, stock exhaust manifold. The problem with the clifford is the large runners, the low end torque is lost, but once you hit 2,500 rpm the thing will wail. :) I've got more low end torque now then I had before. It pulls smoother too... waiting for my laptop to quit defraging to plug in my mileage... just filled up... oh boy... :) john >--> >-->Just curious. >--> >-->Tom >--> >-->P.S. You really have to check out the intro movie on the Clifford site...really made me crack up...just don't freak out when your browser starts shaking (you'll see what I mean) ;-) I've seen it... :) >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:46:37 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Clifford musings.... On Wed, 24 May 100, Brad Seevers wrote: >--> >-->I think what they say about using their headers only applies if your exhaust >-->manifold mates to the intake manifold (for warmup). There are both versions >-->of exhaust manifolds for the AMC 258, and I'm sure John has the divorced >-->exhaust manifold (right John??). >--> >-->The Clifford intake manifolds have a hot water jacket for heating. I have the little adapter doo-hickey that bolts onto the manifold. it does say clifford on it, and it is for sale. It is also a 4v to 2v adapter... I think... or it's bolted to it... Didn't really look at it carefully, Jim and I didn't finish up until almost 10pm Saturday night. :) I'm gonna put the Clifford and the box o' carbs up in the next few days, hopefully before the long weekend. :) Also gonna put up some HP workstations. Trying to decide if I'm gonna chase after the 77 Wagoneer or just sell the computer I was gonna trade for it. They're almost equal in value and the computer takes a lot less space and doesn't bother the wife and neigbors as much... rofl... FWIW, The clifford manifold is noticeable above 2,500 rpm. The thing wails. But I can also tell the difference in low end, off-idle torque increase with the stock setup, much nicer. stand by for the mileage results... I'm waiting for my win98 laptop to quit defragging so I can open excel... (just cleaned up a bunch of directories... :) It just finished, rebooting it now(you know what a flippin' memory leakin' pig ms os's are... :) john >--> >-->-brad ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:15:45 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: the results are in... bottom line... 16.33 mpg previous adjusted: 12.4 mpg ====================================== date: 5/21/00 odometer: 133,878.3 raw miles: 217.8 gals: 14.2 raw mpg: 15.34 cost: $21.29 price per gal: $1.50 adjusted miles: 231.85 adjusted mpg: 16.33 adjustment is ~6% delta in tire size over original, speedo is off. =========================== This is with a paper element, timing and carb set by Jim's ear, with a bad throttle cable, no EGR and a loose nut behind the wheel... ;) Looking forward to getting the right bracket, EGR and an AMSOIL filter on this puppy, also throwing a timing light on it and maybe a vacuum gauge... Still, 16.33 mpg with 31 inch tires, running the a/c in this geographical (read very hilly) location in an FSJ is purt near a record... well, for me it IS a record. The best I've ever done with an FSJ before is about 14 mpg. (old blue almost hit 14, and Superdawg did 14.17 once before....) Anyway... I'm happy, but not dancing. john - ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/johnsjeeps.jpg SuperDawg, SuperPup (the little wagoneer), and the J3000 ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------- ...be thou neither a sender nor a receiver of attachments... ...if thou usest a microsoft operating system or email program... ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #871 *************************