From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Jul 27 21:57:56 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, July 28 2000 Volume 01 : Number 952 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [fsj: the 200,000 mile club and in-line motors] Re: [fsj: Re: [1FSJ] valve cover - think jeep ok?] fsj: Re: SAE / metric fsj: 25mpg Cherokee fsj: Labor Day 2000, Ouray - FSJ Trail Runs fsj: exhaust fsj: It DIES! fsj: RE: [1FSJ] exhaust Re: fsj: It DIES! Re: fsj: 25mpg Cherokee fsj: Re: It DIES! fsj: RE: [1FSJ] exhaust Re: fsj: 25mpg Cherokee fsj: Thanks Tom C Re: fsj: It DIES! FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jul 00 16:47:38 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: the 200,000 mile club and in-line motors] john wrote: > Anyone make 200,000 miles on an AMC 360? > Long live the IN-LINE motors. :) Curious -- do any of these in-line motors have forged cranks? Or are the= y all cast? The number of main bearings is fairly large, maybe that has someth= ing to do with it? I can't help but wonder why. JC can tell you how many mi= les he has on his 401. It's a lot. I wonder how many 360's are rebuilt in the various FSJ clubs because we a= re obsessed with our trucks rather than due to significant wear. These moto= rs have an oddly high tolerance for abuse and neglect. They may have a lot = of problems but none sufficient to kill them. I'm reminded of an article in= Jp I think it was, where they were rebuilding a 360... it was running, but run= ning very rough and loud. They gave up on that particular motor after they discovered the vehicle had been running without a piston, with the connec= ting rod just slapping around in the cylinder! Given this and all the reports of finding high mileage AMC motors with th= e hatchmarks still left in the cylinders, I think it's safe to say a 360 co= uld make 170k if one can put up with a little bit lower power (plenty of you sixaholics do that everday--just kidding, couldn't resist!) Backhoe has = 130k on the clock and that old pig has enough power even up here in the thin a= ir to hold its own on highway or at the stoplight, though no real match for mod= ern EFI vehicles. Runs smooth, minor valve guide problem, valvetrain noise, = and no idea on compression but 150k seems attainable, probably more. We'll s= ee. = TC had a bad motor with supposedly 86k on the clock which I consider a my= stery and anomaly. Plenty of high-mileage trucks in CFSJA, but not many over 2= 00k without a rebuild. Speaking of V8's as related to Jeeps, I wonder how long those old Vigilan= te 327's last? They have a lot of power and AFAIK forged cranks. Betcha th= ose suckers last forever. Going back in time, rambler motors and Stude motor= s I guess were real long distance runners? I'm pretty fascinated by any mach= inery that can last that long. That reminds me. When I did an informal poll o= nce, one guy reported that his FSJ had 400,000 miles on the odo never having b= een rebuilt, and ran like a top. I think it was a Buick 350 in that one. Th= e only thing that could beat that are those old Volvos or VW's that have 1M= miles on the clock... Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 00 16:53:21 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: [1FSJ] valve cover - think jeep ok?] john wrote: > Anyone have any experiences positive or negative with the > folks at "thinkjeep"? Ordered a set of Warrior quick disconnect sway bar end links from 'em. W= as pleased with quick turnaround. I know other guys who have ordered from t= hem, haven't heard anything bad. Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:24:59 PDT From: "michel balea" Subject: fsj: Re: SAE / metric >>>>8mm = 5/16" those allen holding the engine to the trans adapter.... are 8mm! 5/16" was too loose, slipping... and we are talking of a 1974! Cheers Michel 74wag ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:24:40 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: 25mpg Cherokee Tommy faxed me (from Sweden!!!) a copy of the article. It had 3.31 gears, the T-5 and 235's... two things make me wonder... 1) did they do the conversion to miles per gallon correctly? 2) was it down hill from where they started to where they went? ;) I got almost 17mpg the last tank... mixed driving. john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ http://www.wagoneers.com/think-about-this.html Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 00 18:55:32 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: fsj: Labor Day 2000, Ouray - FSJ Trail Runs 2000 Ouray Reconnaisance Mission Labor Day, Sept 1-4, Ouray, Colorado We're scouting more San Juan trails for the 2002 Full Size Jeep Invasion. Plan on trail runs, camping, tire-kicking, and meeting for dinners. We already expect about a dozen rigs so far, mostly from Colorado and some out of state, too! All FSJ owners welcome! Drop me an email if you're interested in joining us for some big fun! For more information check: http://www.cfsja.org/2002/ Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 18:18:10 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: exhaust I'm wondering, after reading an article in the latest JP, if I shouldn't redo Superdawg's exhaust. Currently it's an abomination. No cat converter, two hacked together pipes going into some cheapo lifetime mufflers and out the back in parallel. http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/SJ-BallJointReplacement/P6260928.JPG First: Would a Catalytic converter benefit my engine or increase mileage? Second: How large of pipe do I want to go with a mostly stock 258? 2", 2.5"? thanx, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:30:53 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: It DIES! Does it get any better than this? I think I blew the power valve again. I had it all dialed in, running smooth, 600 rpm, idles adjusted, set the timing to 12, and just couldn't leave it alone. Did the water down the carb trick, up to 2500, dumped a total of probably a 10-12oz of water in there, got it smoothed out after that. Didn't notice any particularly ugly junk out the tailpipe. Truck was running fine sitting there. Ran 15 or 20 minutes in neutral. Seemed fine. Final thing, road test. Took it out to see if it needed any final adjustment to the timing or anything. Ran it up the road, to about 60 with no problem, no pinging (yea!) all seemed pretty well, till I decided to blow out the carbon, the old fashioned way. I came to a stop, then up to about 75 hard throttle and the truck lurched, pop noise under the hood as it cut out, stumbled, but then it smoothed as I let off the accel. Travled another mile level grade no apparent problem, easing off the throttle all the while toward my turn. I came to my turn, and it started gagging, choking, died. VERY hard to start again, gagging, etc, but finally did, ran just a little bit seemed ok sitting still, tried to take off, but she just could not run much more. Finally died, would not start again at all. What's the concensus? Is this how you blow out a power valve? JustNuts (sometimes) :-( - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: RE: [1FSJ] exhaust A: I suggest getting a Borla stainless header and catback from an XJ, or high flow catalytic converter. Lindel=A0Easley wrote: 2 and 1/4" should be good for a I6, and a modern cat shouldn't hurt performance. Might not help any, but shouldn't hurt it any. Lindel - -----Original Message----- From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 8:18 PM To: full size jeep list Subject: [1FSJ] exhaust I'm wondering, after reading an article in the latest JP, if I shouldn't redo Superdawg's exhaust. Currently it's an abomination. No cat converter, two hacked together pipes going into some cheapo lifetime mufflers and out the back in parallel. http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/SJ-BallJointReplacement/P6260928.JPG First: Would a Catalytic converter benefit my engine or increase mileage? Second: How large of pipe do I want to go with a mostly stock 258? 2", 2.5"? thanx, john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:08:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: It DIES! A: Did it backfire? If not, the power valve is probably OK. It almost sounds like your timing chain jumped a notch, but I'm probably way ahead of myself. First you need to check things (got a compression tester? Fuel pressure tester?) Try putting about 4 tablespoons of gas down the carb and see if it starts right up. If so, then fuel pump or gas line clogged most likely. No fire, then your ignition box may have quit. Check for spark. If you have gas and spark, then it's time to check your chain. A quick compression test will tell you if the chain is jumped because the compression will be low across the board (100 or less usually) jeepnut wrote: Does it get any better than this? =A0=A0=A0=A0I think I blew the power valve again. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0I had it all dialed in, running smooth, 600 rpm, idles adjusted, set the timing to 12, and just couldn't leave it alone. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Did the water down the carb trick, up to 2500, dumped a total of probably a 10-12oz of water in there, got it smoothed out after that. Didn't notice any particularly ugly junk out the tailpipe. Truck was running fine sitting there. Ran 15 or 20 minutes in neutral. Seemed fine. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Final thing, road test. Took it out to see if it needed any final adjustment to the timing or anything. Ran it up the road, to about 60 with no problem, no pinging (yea!) all seemed pretty well, till I decided to blow out the carbon, the old fashioned way. I came to a stop, then up to about 75 hard throttle and the truck lurched, pop noise under the hood as it cut out, stumbled, but then it smoothed as I let off the accel. Travled another mile level grade no apparent problem, easing off the throttle all the while toward my turn. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0I came to my turn, and it started gagging, choking, died. VERY hard to start again, gagging, etc, but finally did, ran just a little bit seemed ok sitting still, tried to take off, but she just could not run much more. Finally died, would not start again at all. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0What's the concensus? =A0=A0=A0=A0Is this how you blow out a power valve? =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0JustNuts (sometimes) :-( ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:27:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 25mpg Cherokee A: It was imperial gallon, and I got 25 mpg with my IH 258 5 speed 1 ton 4x4. But then again, that's Canadian gallon! (US gal = 4/5 Canadian gallon, or 1 US quart short!) ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:42:13 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: It DIES! A blown power valve just dumps more gas in when you accelerate... it'll give you a nice puff of black smoke between shifts on full acceleration... This sounds like something else. I've been here before, not sure what it is, but I don't think it's serious. Check all your plug wires, vacuum lines and generally tighten stuff down... could have jumped timing... did you tighten the distributer down tight? Since you didn't hear any loud mechanical noises, see flames or report massive amounts of smoke it's gonna be something easy. just my hunch... hope it's right. :) john On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, JeepNut wrote: >-->Does it get any better than this? >--> I think I blew the power valve again. >--> I had it all dialed in, running smooth, 600 rpm, idles >-->adjusted, set the timing to 12, and just couldn't leave it alone. >--> >--> Did the water down the carb trick, up to 2500, dumped a total >-->of probably a 10-12oz of water in there, got it smoothed out >-->after that. Didn't notice any particularly ugly junk out the >-->tailpipe. Truck was running fine sitting there. Ran 15 or 20 >-->minutes in neutral. Seemed fine. >--> Final thing, road test. Took it out to see if it needed any >-->final adjustment to the timing or anything. Ran it up the road, >-->to about 60 with no problem, no pinging (yea!) all seemed pretty >-->well, till I decided to blow out the carbon, the old fashioned >-->way. I came to a stop, then up to about 75 hard throttle and the >-->truck lurched, pop noise under the hood as it cut out, stumbled, >-->but then it smoothed as I let off the accel. Travled another >-->mile level grade no apparent problem, easing off the throttle all >-->the while toward my turn. >--> I came to my turn, and it started gagging, choking, died. >-->VERY hard to start again, gagging, etc, but finally did, ran just >-->a little bit seemed ok sitting still, tried to take off, but she >-->just could not run much more. Finally died, would not start >-->again at all. >--> What's the concensus? >--> Is this how you blow out a power valve? >--> JustNuts (sometimes) :-( >--> >-->-- >-->---------------------------------------------------------------- >-->'87 Street Comanche #24/100 >-->'88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... >-->'92 Cherokee >-->---------------------------------------------------------------- >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:45:51 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: RE: [1FSJ] exhaust borla is way overpriced. I don't think I need headers... headers can be a pain and don't do anything for the bottom end... as far as I know. I passed emissions without a converter so I'm wondering if there is any benefit to having one... I know a high flow won't hurt my performance, have one on the little wagoneer... but if it's not something the engine needs and won't help my economy, then why spend the $100. On the other hand if it's a major good thing for the air I might consider it... I have lots of allergies and don't want to contribute to my own poor health. = :) Anyone with desktop dyno have some recommendations? I'm looking at using the stock manifold with a weber 32/38. thanx, john On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, James Blair wrote: >-->A: I suggest getting a Borla stainless header and catback from an XJ, o= r >-->high flow catalytic converter. >--> >-->Lindel=A0Easley wrote: >-->2 and 1/4" should be good for a I6, and a modern cat shouldn't hurt >-->performance. Might not help any, but shouldn't hurt it any.=20 >-->Lindel=20 >-->-----Original Message-----=20 >-->From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >-->Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 8:18 PM >-->To: full size jeep list >-->Subject: [1FSJ] exhaust=20 >-->I'm wondering, after reading an article in the latest JP, if I shouldn'= t >-->redo Superdawg's exhaust.=20 >-->Currently it's an abomination. No cat converter, two hacked together >-->pipes going into some cheapo lifetime mufflers and out the back in >-->parallel.=20 >-->http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/SJ-BallJointReplacement/P6260928.JPG= =20 >-->First: Would a Catalytic converter benefit my engine or increase >-->mileage? >-->Second: How large of pipe do I want to go with a mostly stock 258? 2",= =20 >-->2.5"?=20 >-->thanx, >-->john=20 >--> >-->************************************* >-->JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 >-->http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html=20 >-->************************************** >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com=20 don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA =20 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:53:24 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 25mpg Cherokee so they can get MORE mpg because their gallon is IMPERIAL. I knew something was up... Our gallon is 80% of theirs. 80% * 25 = 20! Now it makes sense. That means they got TWENTY MILES TO A US GALLON!!!! This makes much more sense. I went through this with Eddie when he came down with his TJ. And I had to do the math back in '74 on a road trip to Mosport. :) Thanx Jim. I knew it was too good to be true. Ahhh... I feel much better knowing this. Same engine, same gearing, same tranny, only thing is I have bigger tires, but a lighter vehicle... thanx again Tommy for the fax'd article. Imagine faxing something from Sweden... impressive. :) (both that sweden has fax machines that are US compatible, and that he'd go to this effort. :) john On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, James Blair wrote: >-->A: It was imperial gallon, and I got 25 mpg with my IH 258 5 speed 1 ton >-->4x4. But then again, that's Canadian gallon! (US gal = 4/5 Canadian >-->gallon, or 1 US quart short!) >--> >-->************************************* >-->JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 >-->http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html >-->************************************** >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:38:57 EDT From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Thanks Tom C I just installed the pass. side manifold tom Collins sent me. Had it shaved, installed it WITHOUT gaskets and man does it purr. The blown head gasket awhile back warped the old mani completely out of shape. I'm currently prepping the inside for carpet I expect next week. Yahoo. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:43:10 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: It DIES! Hi all and thanks for the continued support... Well it might have been a muffled backfire at 70+ that I heard. They's a lotta wind noise up at that speed as well as door rattles etc. No door panels on right now. Delayed interior project... But here's a recap of the evening's events. Got the carb all dialed in... Took it out to see if it needed any final adjustment to the timing or anything. Ran it up the road, to about 60 with no problem, no pinging (yea!) all seemed pretty well, till I decided to blow out the carbon, the old fashioned way. I came to a stop, then up to about 75 by continuously increasing the throttle and the truck lurched, pop noise under the hood as it cut out, stumbled, but then it smoothed as I let off the accel. Traveled another mile level grade no apparent problem, easing off the throttle all the while toward my turn. I came to my turn, and it started gagging, choking, died. VERY hard to start again, gagging, etc, but finally did, ran just a little bit seemed ok sitting still, tried to take off, but she just could not run much more. Finally died, would not start again at all. I coast into a little store and it won't start. Go to call home. DOH! I left the PC logged on downloading when I left. Oh well, have them interupt the line so's I can call the wife. BellSouth is incapable of breaking my line for an emergency I am told after much discussion etc. with the idiot at the other end of the line.... so I walked 5 miles home. Got the wife, woke up the kids, she takes me over and pulls me home. Tried it before we left. Still won't start. Not even trying. (starting to sound electrical) She did a great job pulling me home. First time she used her Jeep like a Jeep. Got it parked, tried it. No go. Came in the house, mulled around, read Jim Blair's response to my previous, went out and hooked up a timing light to check for spark. Turned the key and it fired right up. I'm starting to think Suburban here... Too bad no Jeep vans. Really need a full size van anyway. Maybe I can find a Forward Control with a camper?!!? So it's sitting there running, maybe one minute or two, sounding pretty smooth. Me just staring at the fan. and it chokes, sputters and dies. Tried to start it, no go. 5 minutes later, it starts up again and ran for 30 minutes.. I just shut it off. This sounds just like what I THOUGHT I'd fixed with the last pickup coil assy. It's run everyday since I put that thing in. It ran crappy till I did the carb, but it never failed to run. The carb has run for 2 days and really ran great. Just a little pinging (the timing was up to about 18). Now this. I guess I can rule out a timing chain issue. Still want to think it could be as simple as replacing the power valve, though John's response doesn't give me much hope.... I am real tempted to go get another carb kit and put new parts in... It isn't quite the same. Before when I was having trouble, it would just die, no chokes, no sputters, no coughs, it was on/off. This time it was running fine then choking and gagging before dying. Granted this is a one-off sample. This is the first time I've gotten it started since it crapped out earlier tonight so I don't have much to work with yet... Thoughts? JeepNut James Blair wrote: > A: Did it backfire? If not, the power valve is probably OK. It almost > sounds like your timing chain jumped a notch, but I'm probably way ahead > of myself. First you need to check things (got a compression tester? > Fuel pressure tester?) Try putting about 4 tablespoons of gas down the > carb and see if it starts right up. If so, then fuel pump or gas line > clogged most likely. No fire, then your ignition box may have quit. > Check for spark. If you have gas and spark, then it's time to check your > chain. > A quick compression test will tell you if the chain is jumped because > the compression will be low across the board (100 or less usually) - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #952 *************************