From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Aug 10 12:46:58 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, August 10 2000 Volume 01 : Number 977 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Attitude fsj: '74 4 bbl vs. '88 2 bbl Re: fsj: 25mpg Cherokee fsj: Re: Holley Projection Re: fsj: Re: HELP!!!!! Re: fsj: Re: HELP!!!!! fsj: redid main page... fsj: Holley 700cfm projection fsj: someone did some research on axles... :) Re: fsj: someone did some research on axles... :) fsj: Re: Holley 700cfm projection FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:57:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Attitude Give each letter of the alphabet a number, a=3D1, b=3D2, etc. If you add u= p the letters of the alphabet in the word "Attitude" this is the result: =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0A =A0 =3D =A0 1 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0T =A0 =3D =A0 20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0T =A0 =3D =A0 20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0I =A0 =3D =A0 9 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0T =A0 =3D =A0 20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0U =A0 =3D =A0 21 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0D =A0 =3D =A0 4 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0E =A0 =3D =A0 5 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0----- =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Attitude is 100% ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:11:52 -0500 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: '74 4 bbl vs. '88 2 bbl Dan Black wrote.... Last thing is something I noticed driving the '74, and I'll find out more now that the '88 runs so much better. With the '74, it's much easier to just cruise at the speed limit (or just a couple mph over) rather than struggling (usually successfully) to keep it under 10mph over the limit. I'm not sure yet if it's because of the extra power, the nicer sound, or both, - ----- I think that's the difference between 2 bbl and 4bbl. The 4 bbl is running on the primaries, with balanced fuel/air mix and good velocity through the venturis. the 2 bbl is probably not happy until it's opened up more. - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:21:37 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 25mpg Cherokee At 06:28 AM 8/10/00 -0500, R.J. Baynum wrote: >I am Back!....... >>Talk to you later.. off to work in the Huntsville Botanical Gardens..... >>R.J. welcome back... BTW, I was thinking about the 25mpg Chero this morning driving in... I know how we can all improve our gas mileage... ...start using IMPERIAL Gallons! ;) If gardening is your thing, check out the link to the Snohomish Gardens on my main server page. :) I think I'm gonna print calendars... :) My wife is out of control with things that grow, and I'm outta control with things that go... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ http://www.wagoneers.com/think-about-this.html Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:32:11 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Holley Projection At 12:37 PM 8/10/00 -0400, Frank Kosmak wrote: >>>> John, I am considering purchase of 700 CFM Holley Projection for for 401 Javelin AMX. I need your advice based on your experience. Thank you, Frank Kosmak, Orlando <<<< "Frank Kosmak" I know of one guy (ray ) that did the Holley Pro-Jection on a 360, and he speaks highly of it. I don't know about the 700 CFM model though, I think he did the 650CFM version. I'm looking at a TBI for my AMC 258. I need a new carb... mine is working again, but not well. I had a used 300CFM TBI but sold it because I had a clifford intake/holley carb. Since then I've restored it back to a stock manifold. So I'm looking at a TBI or the Weber 32/38. I'd prefer to get something other than Holley... It sounds like you aren't concerned about gas mileage... ;) The Holley is well known for performance. Gas mileage is not usually mentioned in the same breath as holley, except when it comes to their TBIs. Are you aware of any TBI's for stock 258s? I'm cc'ing a couple of jeep lists so we both get answers. :) A good source for the larger TBI's might be Summit or Jegs. I went to the AMC event at Ocean Shores, Washington a few weeks ago, saw lots of AMX / Javelin... pictures at: http://www.wagoneers.com/john/FOTOS/AMC-PacificCoast/ good luck on your tbi setup... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ http://www.wagoneers.com/think-about-this.html Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:32:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: HELP!!!!! A: Check the coil + for power with the key on and again while cranking (watch you don't get caught in the fan!) If there is power, then the problem is either the brain box (if you are local to Seattle, I have a good one we could plug in to test) or the harness between. If there is no power, then the ignition switch may have worn out, or the resistor wire burned out. Worst case scenario is that the oil pump seized and the dist no longer turns. (take the cap off and crank the motor over. If it doesn't move, you've found your problem) If it was an earlier model (pre '78) with electronic ignition, theconnector at the dist had trouble, and had to be cut off and wire to wire connected. (the later models can get corrosion in the connectors too, and sometimes just unplugging and replugging them will cure it temporarily. The plug on the ignition box gets that way too) Lisa D. Arent wrote: I have an 1986 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, and I have no spark when I am cranking the car over. Then when I shut it off it sparks once. Can you suggest what the problem might be. Matt <<<< Starter Solenoid or Ballast resistor. Or the ignition wiring has been damaged or changed. john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:51:55 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: HELP!!!!! my guess is this will be something simple... if the engine was working before... when did the problem occur? had it worked before? any funny sounds when you last used it? check all the wiring under the hood, and maybe even bypass the ignition switch. Turn the key to on and use a remote starter under the hood. It is possible that the ignition switch has failed, or the wiring (my first suspicion) has a loose or broken connection.... 99% of the time the problem is quite simple. Catastrophic failure usually makes a bigger noise and manifests itself with metal fragments. Look for the simple stuff first, and don't immediately suspect mysterious looking boxes under the hood... In over 12 years of FSJ ownership I've yet to see one fail. Connectors, yes, wiring, yes... but not the brains. I have heard of it happening, but since I didn't see it first hand it could have been a bad connector that got "fixed" when the brain was switched out. Electronic stuff does fail, but automotive electronics are pretty durable, well designed. It's a harsh environment and components are chosen to endure. Check and trace and tie up the wiring first. Look for broken wires, worn insulation, shorts, loose and dirty connections. Clean up your wiring, trace every available inch. Open up connectors and clean 'em out. Wiggle, move and shake stuff. Your problem is most likely in the spagehetti... AFTER you've done all that checking, cleaning and tying up, THEN start swapping electronic modules. EVERY single time I've swapped out an electronic module, it didn't solve my problem, UNLESS it was a connector issue. Intermittent problems, and problems like this are usually related to wiring or switches or connectors... check, clean, secure... I bet if I were to look under the hood I'd see wires laying all over... right? :) AMC is not noted for it's care in wiring... Jim's idea of the oil pump isn't bad either... but you'd have other indications of that problem... when you crank, does the oil pressure gauge come up at all? Oil pump failure is pretty rare in the 360's. Out of 66 plus vehicles that I've owned, I've had one failure of an oil pump. It does happen, but again, the probability is low. Happy troubleshooting... oh, yeah, and check the grounds. The coil connections, or the coil itself could be bad... those do fail. :) john At 11:32 AM 8/10/00 -0700, James Blair wrote: >A: Check the coil + for power with the key on and again while cranking >(watch you don't get caught in the fan!) If there is power, then the >problem is either the brain box (if you are local to Seattle, I have a >good one we could plug in to test) or the harness between. > If there is no power, then the ignition switch may have worn out, or >the resistor wire burned out. > Worst case scenario is that the oil pump seized and the dist no >longer turns. (take the cap off and crank the motor over. If it doesn't >move, you've found your problem) If it was an earlier model (pre '78) >with electronic ignition, theconnector at the dist had trouble, and had >to be cut off and wire to wire connected. (the later models can get >corrosion in the connectors too, and sometimes just unplugging and >replugging them will cure it temporarily. The plug on the ignition box >gets that way too) > >Lisa D. Arent wrote: >I have an 1986 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, and I have no spark when I am >cranking the car over. Then when I shut it off it sparks once. Can you >suggest what the problem might be. >Matt ><<<< >Starter Solenoid or Ballast resistor. >Or the ignition wiring has been damaged or changed. >john > >************************************* >JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 >http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html >************************************** > - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ http://www.wagoneers.com/think-about-this.html Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:21:54 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: redid main page... redid the main page on http://www.wagoneers.com added some images... ;) added a link or two as requested... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ http://www.wagoneers.com/think-about-this.html Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:38:39 EDT From: Chrisharon-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Holley 700cfm projection We've got the 4D 700cfm Projection on top of a 401. The lower HP limit for this unit is supposed to be 225hp. Personally, I think the 650cfm would be more suited to this motor unless you're planning on building it and spinning some RPM with it. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:53:34 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: someone did some research on axles... :) spottted this on the XJ list... Jeff did his homework, worth sharing with the FSJ folks. :) john Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:58:55 -0500 From: Jeff Subject: xj: XJ axle swap observations - LONG Hey all, Just thought I would share me recent junk yard search results. I am looking into building my own High Pinion D44 front end for my '92 Cherokee. My original plan was to use a mid 70's Ford front housing and shorten it to accept mid 80's Grand Wagoneer axle shafts with Chevy knuckles (set up for high clearance steering). This should make the wheel mounting surface to wheel mounting surface the same as the Grand Wagoneer axle yet have a high pinion center section. I would either use Grand Wagoneer parts from the Knuckle out (6 on 5.5 bolt pattern) or Chevy parts from the knuckle out (also 6 on 5.5 bolt pattern and I think pretty much the same parts as the Grand Wagoneer) or if I wanted 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern I would use Ford hubs and misc parts to complete the housing. I am pretty sure all these knuckle out pieces would end up at the width. So, I did quite a bit of junk yard searching and measureing. Here are my results: Grand Wagoneer front axle - width - 60 3/4" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 21 3/8" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 39 1/2" Stock '92 Cherokee front axle (two composite rotors) width - 60 1/2 drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 21 3/4" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 38 13/16" Junk yard Cherokee front axle (solid rotors) width - 60 1/2" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 21 5/8" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 38 7/8" So, the Grand Wagoneer drivers side is 1/4" to 3/8" shorter than the stock axle, the passengers side is 11/16" to 3/4" longer than the stock axle, and the total Grand Wagoneer axle width is 1/4" wider than the stock axle. Based on this inf., a Grand Wagoneer front D44 axle is very close in dimensions to the stock Cherokee RC D30 dimensions. It is slightly wider and the pinion is offset a slight bit further to the drivers side which will actually help clearance between the diff and the exhaust. I also thought I would swap in a Grand Wagoneer D44 rear to match the new front as far as width and bolt pattern. Here are my measurements of the rear axles. Grand Wagoneer rear D44 - no drums width - 58 1/2" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 29 1/4" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 29 1/4" Stock "87 Cherokee rear D44 with Moser custom shafts width - 60 1/4" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 30 3/4" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 29 3/8" Stock junk yard D35 rear axle width - 60 1/4" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 30 7/8" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 29 3/8" So, the Grand Wagoneer rear D44 is 1 3/4" narrower than a stock axle with the pinion is offset 3/4" further towards the drivers side than a stock axle. The Grand Wagoneer rear axle is also about 2" narrower than the Grand Wagoneer front axle when figuring on 1/8" thick brake drums. The spring pads are already set up for spring over and are the same 43 1/2" apart as the stock xj axle. I don't think the pinion offset would cause much of a problem and the different widths between front and rear are apparently not uncommon on vehicles. However, I think the front of my cherokee's body is already narrower than the rear and the tires already look like they stick out further in the front than the rear. So, I really don't want the rear end to be 2" narrower than the front. I could build the front as outlined and end up being perhaps 1/4" wider than stock at the wheel mounting surfaces. Then I could use my current stock D44 rear end (real close to the width of the custom front end when you add in the 3/8" or so of the rear disks) and change wheel bolt pattern on the axleshafts by dual drilling the flanges (if there is enough flange diameter) or selling these axle shafts and having Moser make another set with the correct axle flange. But, in order to maintain the wheel placement that I want, I would need to use 15 x 8 4.5" backspaced wheels with the stock axles. That same backspacing would then also need to be used with the custom front axle and stock rear axle (with bolt pattern change.) I would like to be able to use stock Grand Wagoneer rims or stock Chevy rims for their cheapness and availability, but I think they are more like 3.5" backspacing. Another possibility I am pursueing is to use the Grand Wagoneer D44 in the rear of my XJ with 3.5" backspaced rims. This would place the tires just about the same as the previous setup using 4.5" backspaced rims. However, what to do to the front to get it 2" narrower so I can use 3.5" backspaced rims (wich will also keep the lockouts covered better)? If there are enough splines and enough seal area on the front GW axleshafts, I could build the housing in such a manner as to place the shafts 1" further in the diff. I may have to cut off an inch of the shaft, but I believe that would work. Custom shafts or shafts 1" shorter from somthing else would also work. Lots of thoughts without spending anything so far!! Feel free to comment on anything. Jeff - ------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ http://www.wagoneers.com/think-about-this.html Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:02:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: someone did some research on axles... :) A: Just to make this nice and easy, grab a '80 or newer (or for FSJers with '79 and older, get one of those) front axle, and get the high linkage spindles, press the FSJ tubes off, and put the Ford center housing in (I've been checking this out too ) and have the pinion angle set for the lift you plan in advance. John wrote: spottted this on the XJ list... Jeff did his homework, worth sharing with the FSJ folks. :) john Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 00:58:55 -0500 From: Jeff Subject: xj: XJ axle swap observations - LONG Hey all, Just thought I would share me recent junk yard search results. I am looking into building my own High Pinion D44 front end for my '92 Cherokee. My original plan was to use a mid 70's Ford front housing and shorten it to accept mid 80's Grand Wagoneer axle shafts with Chevy knuckles (set up for high clearance steering). This should make the wheel mounting surface to wheel mounting surface the same as the Grand Wagoneer axle yet have a high pinion center section. I would either use Grand Wagoneer parts from the Knuckle out (6 on 5.5 bolt pattern) or Chevy parts from the knuckle out (also 6 on 5.5 bolt pattern and I think pretty much the same parts as the Grand Wagoneer) or if I wanted 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern I would use Ford hubs and misc parts to complete the housing. I am pretty sure all these knuckle out pieces would end up at the width. So, I did quite a bit of junk yard searching and measureing. Here are my results: Grand Wagoneer front axle - width - 60 3/4" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 21 3/8" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 39 1/2" Stock '92 Cherokee front axle (two composite rotors) width - 60 1/2 drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 21 3/4" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 38 13/16" Junk yard Cherokee front axle (solid rotors) width - 60 1/2" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 21 5/8" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 38 7/8" So, the Grand Wagoneer drivers side is 1/4" to 3/8" shorter than the stock axle, the passengers side is 11/16" to 3/4" longer than the stock axle, and the total Grand Wagoneer axle width is 1/4" wider than the stock axle. Based on this inf., a Grand Wagoneer front D44 axle is very close in dimensions to the stock Cherokee RC D30 dimensions. It is slightly wider and the pinion is offset a slight bit further to the drivers side which will actually help clearance between the diff and the exhaust. I also thought I would swap in a Grand Wagoneer D44 rear to match the new front as far as width and bolt pattern. Here are my measurements of the rear axles. Grand Wagoneer rear D44 - no drums width - 58 1/2" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 29 1/4" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 29 1/4" Stock "87 Cherokee rear D44 with Moser custom shafts width - 60 1/4" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 30 3/4" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 29 3/8" Stock junk yard D35 rear axle width - 60 1/4" drivers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 30 7/8" passengers side wheel mounting flange to center of pinion - 29 3/8" So, the Grand Wagoneer rear D44 is 1 3/4" narrower than a stock axle with the pinion is offset 3/4" further towards the drivers side than a stock axle. The Grand Wagoneer rear axle is also about 2" narrower than the Grand Wagoneer front axle when figuring on 1/8" thick brake drums. The spring pads are already set up for spring over and are the same 43 1/2" apart as the stock xj axle. I don't think the pinion offset would cause much of a problem and the different widths between front and rear are apparently not uncommon on vehicles. However, I think the front of my cherokee's body is already narrower than the rear and the tires already look like they stick out further in the front than the rear. So, I really don't want the rear end to be 2" narrower than the front. I could build the front as outlined and end up being perhaps 1/4" wider than stock at the wheel mounting surfaces. Then I could use my current stock D44 rear end (real close to the width of the custom front end when you add in the 3/8" or so of the rear disks) and change wheel bolt pattern on the axleshafts by dual drilling the flanges (if there is enough flange diameter) or selling these axle shafts and having Moser make another set with the correct axle flange. But, in order to maintain the wheel placement that I want, I would need to use 15 x 8 4.5" backspaced wheels with the stock axles. That same backspacing would then also need to be used with the custom front axle and stock rear axle (with bolt pattern change.) I would like to be able to use stock Grand Wagoneer rims or stock Chevy rims for their cheapness and availability, but I think they are more like 3.5" backspacing. Another possibility I am pursueing is to use the Grand Wagoneer D44 in the rear of my XJ with 3.5" backspaced rims. This would place the tires just about the same as the previous setup using 4.5" backspaced rims. However, what to do to the front to get it 2" narrower so I can use 3.5" backspaced rims (wich will also keep the lockouts covered better)? If there are enough splines and enough seal area on the front GW axleshafts, I could build the housing in such a manner as to place the shafts 1" further in the diff. I may have to cut off an inch of the shaft, but I believe that would work. Custom shafts or shafts 1" shorter from somthing else would also work. Lots of thoughts without spending anything so far!! Feel free to comment on anything. Jeff ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:10:47 -0400 From: "MadMarx" Subject: fsj: Re: Holley 700cfm projection Chris, I would have to disagree with you on that. A stock 401 has 225 HP or so. With a free flowing exhaust you would be around 235-240. I have a stock 360 with headers and as soon as I get a cam and put the 4 barrel intake on I should be around 290 or so and that is at the upper edges of the 2 barrel. BTW I love my 2 barrel Projection. The 4d has 4 injectors and operates like a 4 barrel carb with primaries and secondaries right? If that is the case the small venturie would work better that the 2 large venturies on the 2 barrel You could lean the primaries out more and get good part throttle mileage and richen the secondaries to get better power. Personally I think the 30CFM is basically a wash, and the availability of more horsepower overhead makes the 4d a better choice. Basically I would rather run something at 70% duty cycle like a 4d on a 401 instead of at 95% with the 2d. I hope this make sense. Also the 4d has more adjustment available then the 2 barrel. Mark AMC360/TF727/Dana300/670CFM Projection 2 barrel - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: <> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 3:38 PM Subject: fsj: Holley 700cfm projection > We've got the 4D 700cfm Projection on top of a 401. The lower HP limit > for this unit is supposed to be 225hp. Personally, I think the 650cfm would > be more suited to this motor unless you're planning on building it and > spinning some RPM with it. > > Chris > > ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #977 *************************