From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Sep 14 07:18:00 2011 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, September 14 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3805 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: j10, jetta, 300d Re: fsj: bad 727 Formerly Tranny or Torque Converter? fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr Re: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr fsj: White Knuckle swapmeet in Enumclaw, WA on sunday September the 25th! Re: fsj: bad 727 Formerly Tranny or Torque Converter? fsj: parts run... Re: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr RE: fsj: parts run... RE: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr Re: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr Re: fsj: parts run... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 09:22:40 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: j10, jetta, 300d guess I'm going to take the deerslaying jetta down to chelis this morning to chase the parts needed to fix it... tried to contact curtis to see if he could look at them first, but no response from two messages and emails... I'd take the j10 down, but it's getting 8-15 mpg so the 220 mile round trip would likely cost me over $110 in gas, vs. $22 with the jetta. I'd take the '87 300D down, but I can't figure any way of folding that hood to fit in the trunk or the back seat... for such a little car it sure has a big hood... ;) I've put a lot of stuff in a Mercedes trunk before... full size jeep gas tanks, fenders.... surprised that I can't fit the jetta hood in the trunk. :) I'll stop in centralia to see how superdawg is progressing... all my mechanical and financial problems will be solved if superdawg is running because I could get rid of the jetta, the 300d and the other J10... pay off all my debts and live happily ever after... well, sort of, would still have a mortgage and a wife with a garden addiction... :) btw, did I mention that our garden won the P.Allen Smith garden contest? the prize is an all expense paid trip to Little Rock for a garden tour/dinner and what not. heading down to get the other jetta out of aamco's care, they're trying to blame vacuum lines on the shifting problems... might actually be right since the mercedes transmissions are funky like that too... they found a split vaccuum line, why they didn't fix it is beyond me... heading down with 5x3mm vaccuum line. driving a one-eyed jetta south... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:34:59 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: Re: fsj: bad 727 Formerly Tranny or Torque Converter? Put it in low range and see if it rolls in park. If not, the culprit is most probably the tcase VC went kablooey. (unless you're really lucky) It could be the lift caused the tcase linkage to pop into 4 hi. If you drain the tcase fluid, and gritty black stuff comes out, the VC is hosed. http://i.pgcdn.com/pi/81/98/83/819883293_260.jpg shows 727 (also 45RE) and 999 (904, 909, 998 also 42RE) gaskets side by side. The 727 is the irregular shaped one (there is a bulge in the pattern where the dipstick goes into the trans) and 9XX is almost square with the rear corner angle cut (same place as the 727) With the NP229, it is more likely to be a 727. 999 usually came with NP208 as the "economy" version. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 Re: fsj: bad 727 Formerly Tranny or Torque Converter? Posted by: "akcalvery" akcalvery-at-yahoo.com akcalvery Date: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:34 am ((PDT)) It does have the NP229, just crawled under to verify. And it was towed a distance with the front driveline removed......with all 4 wheels on the ground. I remember other posts about this scenario being bad for the VC as mentioned. It has the front driveline out now as it is short because of the lift, 200 miles or so without it. It does not have manual hubs and does have the vacuum axle disconnect. So the T-case may be hosed?? Can I verify this by checking the fluid in the T-case for grit?? I have not tried to drive it in low range. It does still move. I drove it across the road to the neighbors last night 1/2 mile round trip. It seemed to slip a little on take off, but made it there and back. I thought it was a 727 but I my research says it should be a 999. I can not find a picture of the pans to compare. I did find top and side shots. So what are the visual clues to 727 compared to a 999,,, from the bottom side??? The lift is a TT Fabworks axle over kit for the front with weld on spring perches for the rear. It is real nice, stock ride quality. Reused the shocks, just moved the mounts. Put on the crossover steering kit from BJs. I love it,,,now I broke it. Thanks for the thoughts, Corey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:33:14 -0500 From: Ken Gaines Subject: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr Soooo...there I was...minding my own business and just trying to check the freon (R-134) in my A/C system when I heard what sounded like a battery arc sound. I dismissed it until I heard it again and was met with a quick little spray of foamy oil and refrigerant. It appears that the new sound my Wag has learned is the receiver-dryer and/or expansion valve going bad. Ideas? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 06:30:43 +0200 From: Michel Balea Subject: Re: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr You indeed may have blown an o-ring, or a hose. This or last year I decided to play and recharge the A/C, when the pressure rose, there was a sudden puff of smoke and a blown A/C hose. Now I need to dismantle and replace all the hoses, and the drier..... Michel 74, 85 FSJs On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Ken Gaines wrote: > Soooo...there I was...minding my own business and just trying to check the > freon (R-134) in my A/C system when I heard what sounded like a battery arc > sound. I dismissed it until I heard it again and was met with a quick > little > spray of foamy oil and refrigerant. It appears that the new sound my Wag > has > learned is the receiver-dryer and/or expansion valve going bad. > Ideas? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 21:43:59 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: White Knuckle swapmeet in Enumclaw, WA on sunday September the 25th! Sunday September 25th Enumclaw Expo Center 9am-3pm Admission is only $5 (12 and under free) Come sell your stuff. Vendor setup Saturday from 6pm-8-30pm and Sunday from 6am-9am Flier here- http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3134...7-pm-385k?da=y ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 23:34:31 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: bad 727 Formerly Tranny or Torque Converter? good call Jim... didn't even think that a J10 would get a 229... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 13 Sep 2011, Jim Blair wrote: # Put it in low range and see if it rolls in park. If not, the culprit is most # probably the tcase VC went kablooey. (unless you're really lucky) It could be # the lift caused the tcase linkage to pop into 4 hi. If you drain the tcase # fluid, and gritty black stuff comes out, the VC is hosed. # # http://i.pgcdn.com/pi/81/98/83/819883293_260.jpg shows 727 (also 45RE) and 999 # (904, 909, 998 also 42RE) gaskets side by side. The 727 is the irregular # shaped one (there is a bulge in the pattern where the dipstick goes into the # trans) and 9XX is almost square with the rear corner angle cut (same place as # the 727) # With the NP229, it is more likely to be a 727. 999 usually came with NP208 # as the "economy" version. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # Re: fsj: bad 727 Formerly Tranny or Torque Converter? # Posted by: "akcalvery" akcalvery-at-yahoo.com akcalvery # Date: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:34 am ((PDT)) # # # # # # # It does have the NP229, just crawled under to verify. And it was towed a # distance with the front driveline removed......with all 4 wheels on the # ground. I remember other posts about this scenario being bad for the VC as # mentioned. It has the front driveline out now as it is short because of the # lift, 200 miles or so without it. It does not have manual hubs and does have # the vacuum axle disconnect. # So the T-case may be hosed?? Can I verify this by checking the fluid in # the T-case for grit?? # I have not tried to drive it in low range. It does still move. I drove it # across the road to the neighbors last night 1/2 mile round trip. It seemed to # slip a little on take off, but made it there and back. # I thought it was a 727 but I my research says it should be a 999. I can # not find a picture of the pans to compare. I did find top and side shots. So # what are the visual clues to 727 compared to a 999,,, from the bottom side??? # The lift is a TT Fabworks axle over kit for the front with weld on spring # perches for the rear. It is real nice, stock ride quality. Reused the shocks, # just moved the mounts. Put on the crossover steering kit from BJs. I love # it,,,now I broke it. # # Thanks for the thoughts, # Corey # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 00:33:06 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: parts run... found silver body parts for the deer damaged jetta (2003 silver wagon 5spd)in chehalis... the wrecking yard said they were good parts... hah! drove 120 miles to find nothing as described. spent several hours roaming the wrecking yard finding bits and pieces of broken and bent parts... found a hood, but it was slightly dented, bought it anyway... reasonable fender... frosted headlight with a broken tab(but good bulbs!!!), mirror without glass(discount)... :) had to swap hoods in the parking lot... tossed the rest of the pieces in the back of the wagon and zipped up I-5 to centralia to curtis' two hours later we had the parts installed and I bought him a pizza for dinner... he's been working on superdawg, pictures at: http://fotomeister.us/2011/09-Sep-13-JettaRepair-SuperDawg-Centralia/ALL.html we got the other jetta (2002 white Sedan with AT) out of aamco this morning... they messed up the grille putting an external trans cooler on it... they didn't do anything to the transmission though... and are trying to blame the shifting problem on the Diesel engine... the "technician" explained to me that there was a vacuum problem... showed me the vaccum lines and said they were all cracked... they weren't, they're the typical cloth covered vacuum lines seen on a lot of German cars... then he proceeded to explain to me how the little flapper thing (the egr) was controlled by engine vacuum and that it was causing the engine to stumble on throttle opening... he pointed to the little round thing on the end of the engine (the temperature switch to allow vacuum to the egr once warm) and said that's why the shift from 1-2 was causing the engine to fall on it's face... I think he saw the look on my face... I think explained to him that Diesels don't have little flapper things to control air flow and that thing he was pointing to was the EGR and the other thing the temp control to only make it work once it was warmed up... So I asked questions about the transmission... are there any vacuum controls? no. it's all electronic. were there any codes in the computer. no. So, basically they don't understand Diesels so they blamed the shifting problem on it. I don't understand how even a throttle position sensor could cause a problem only in one gear and not spit up a code... I still think there is an issue with the 1-2 solenoid or valve in the TDI/AT trans. we'll see... I have a "free" diagnostic check coupon from the local VW dealer and an airbag light that I tripped by accident, so I'll have them check the codes, clear the airbag indicator and give my throttle position a clean bill of health... thinking I'll take the car to dave's transmission in lynnwood, have them fix it and send aamco the bill. This is the fourth or fifth time they've tried to fix it... competence is not evident in any of the folks I've dealt with... they've damaged more than they've fixed and lost significant parts of the car... (skid plates, battery covers, inner fenders...) all this to say, AVOID FRANCHISE repair outfits... wish the PO had. :) now, I need to decide if I'm going to keep the '87 300D or the '03 Jetta TDI wagon... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:07:27 -0500 From: Ken Gaines Subject: Re: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr It made a buzzing sound that reminded me of a relief valve. Is there a relief valve on the receiver/dryer or even on the expansion valve? I priced both parts yesterday and to replace them both would be in the neighborhood of $90...of course that doesn't account for the $100 worth of R-134 I will end up having to buy to replace what gets taken out. On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Michel Balea wrote: > You indeed may have blown an o-ring, or a hose. This or last year I decided > to play and recharge the A/C, when the pressure rose, there was a sudden > puff of smoke and a blown A/C hose. Now I need to dismantle and replace all > the hoses, and the drier..... > > Michel > 74, 85 FSJs > > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Ken Gaines wrote: > >> Soooo...there I was...minding my own business and just trying to check the >> freon (R-134) in my A/C system when I heard what sounded like a battery >> arc >> sound. I dismissed it until I heard it again and was met with a quick >> little >> spray of foamy oil and refrigerant. It appears that the new sound my Wag >> has >> learned is the receiver-dryer and/or expansion valve going bad. >> Ideas? >> > > - -- Ken Gaines Sr. GIS Analyst/Petroleum Landman Red River Oil & Gas, LLC (318) 227-4870 Office (318) 422-5731 Mobile arklatexgeo-at-gmail.com http://www.rrog.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 07:11:13 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: parts run... Since the trans requires dismantling to get that solenoid, they will avoid at all costs having to do it. Sadly they won't put any Lubeguard in which tends to fix the sticky ones and it's the only factory certified additive. > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 00:33:06 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: > Subject: fsj: parts run... > > found silver body parts for the deer damaged jetta (2003 silver wagon 5spd)in chehalis... > the wrecking yard said they were good parts... hah! drove 120 miles to find nothing as described. > > spent several hours roaming the wrecking yard finding bits and pieces of broken and bent parts... > > found a hood, but it was slightly dented, bought it anyway... reasonable fender... frosted headlight > with a broken tab(but good bulbs!!!), mirror without glass(discount)... :) had to swap hoods in the parking lot... > > tossed the rest of the pieces in the back of the wagon and zipped up I-5 to centralia to curtis' > > two hours later we had the parts installed and I bought him a pizza for dinner... he's been working > on superdawg, pictures at: > http://fotomeister.us/2011/09-Sep-13-JettaRepair-SuperDawg-Centralia/ALL.html > > we got the other jetta (2002 white Sedan with AT) out of aamco this morning... > they messed up the grille putting an external trans cooler on it... > they didn't do anything to the transmission though... and are trying to blame > the shifting problem on the Diesel engine... the "technician" explained to me that there was a > vacuum problem... showed me the vaccum lines and said they were all cracked... they weren't, they're > the typical cloth covered vacuum lines seen on a lot of German cars... then he proceeded to explain > to me how the little flapper thing (the egr) was controlled by engine vacuum and that it was causing > the engine to stumble on throttle opening... he pointed to the little round thing on the end of the > engine (the temperature switch to allow vacuum to the egr once warm) and said that's why the shift > from 1-2 was causing the engine to fall on it's face... > > I think he saw the look on my face... I think explained to him that Diesels don't have little flapper > things to control air flow and that thing he was pointing to was the EGR and the other thing the temp > control to only make it work once it was warmed up... > > So I asked questions about the transmission... are there any vacuum controls? no. it's all electronic. > were there any codes in the computer. no. So, basically they don't understand Diesels so they blamed > the shifting problem on it. > > I don't understand how even a throttle position sensor could cause a problem only in one gear and not > spit up a code... I still think there is an issue with the 1-2 solenoid or valve in the TDI/AT trans. > > we'll see... I have a "free" diagnostic check coupon from the local VW dealer and an airbag light > that I tripped by accident, so I'll have them check the codes, clear the airbag indicator and give > my throttle position a clean bill of health... thinking I'll take the car to dave's transmission in > lynnwood, have them fix it and send aamco the bill. This is the fourth or fifth time they've tried to > fix it... competence is not evident in any of the folks I've dealt with... they've damaged more than > they've fixed and lost significant parts of the car... (skid plates, battery covers, inner fenders...) > > all this to say, AVOID FRANCHISE repair outfits... wish the PO had. :) > > now, I need to decide if I'm going to keep the '87 300D or the '03 Jetta TDI wagon... > > john > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 07:12:29 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr R134 is $10/14 oz can here. > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:07:27 -0500 > Subject: Re: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr > From: arklatexgeo-at-gmail.com > To: michelbalea-at-gmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net > > It made a buzzing sound that reminded me of a relief valve. Is there a > relief valve on the receiver/dryer or even on the expansion valve? I priced > both parts yesterday and to replace them both would be in the neighborhood > of $90...of course that doesn't account for the $100 worth of R-134 I will > end up having to buy to replace what gets taken out. > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Michel Balea wrote: > > > You indeed may have blown an o-ring, or a hose. This or last year I decided > > to play and recharge the A/C, when the pressure rose, there was a sudden > > puff of smoke and a blown A/C hose. Now I need to dismantle and replace all > > the hoses, and the drier..... > > > > Michel > > 74, 85 FSJs > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Ken Gaines wrote: > > > >> Soooo...there I was...minding my own business and just trying to check the > >> freon (R-134) in my A/C system when I heard what sounded like a battery > >> arc > >> sound. I dismissed it until I heard it again and was met with a quick > >> little > >> spray of foamy oil and refrigerant. It appears that the new sound my Wag > >> has > >> learned is the receiver-dryer and/or expansion valve going bad. > >> Ideas? > >> > > > > > > > -- > Ken Gaines > Sr. GIS Analyst/Petroleum Landman > Red River Oil & Gas, LLC > (318) 227-4870 Office > (318) 422-5731 Mobile > arklatexgeo-at-gmail.com > http://www.rrog.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:15:59 +0000 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr 100 worth of r134? You need maybe 3 lbs, what's that nasty, toxic, inefficient crap selling for now? I was able to buy a case at 5 bucks a pound when my benz was leaking. :) __john_at_http://wagoneers.com__ - -----Original Message----- From: Ken Gaines Sender: owner-fsj-at-digest.net Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:07:27 To: Michel Balea; Reply-To: Ken Gaines Subject: Re: fsj: The Wag learned a new trick this afternoon...grrrrr It made a buzzing sound that reminded me of a relief valve. Is there a relief valve on the receiver/dryer or even on the expansion valve? I priced both parts yesterday and to replace them both would be in the neighborhood of $90...of course that doesn't account for the $100 worth of R-134 I will end up having to buy to replace what gets taken out. On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Michel Balea wrote: > You indeed may have blown an o-ring, or a hose. This or last year I decided > to play and recharge the A/C, when the pressure rose, there was a sudden > puff of smoke and a blown A/C hose. Now I need to dismantle and replace all > the hoses, and the drier..... > > Michel > 74, 85 FSJs > > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Ken Gaines wrote: > >> Soooo...there I was...minding my own business and just trying to check the >> freon (R-134) in my A/C system when I heard what sounded like a battery >> arc >> sound. I dismissed it until I heard it again and was met with a quick >> little >> spray of foamy oil and refrigerant. It appears that the new sound my Wag >> has >> learned is the receiver-dryer and/or expansion valve going bad. >> Ideas? >> > > - -- Ken Gaines Sr. GIS Analyst/Petroleum Landman Red River Oil & Gas, LLC (318) 227-4870 Office (318) 422-5731 Mobile arklatexgeo-at-gmail.com http://www.rrog.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:17:51 +0000 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: parts run... We're talking about a vw automatic, not normal, not all that great. __john_at_http://wagoneers.com__ - -----Original Message----- From: Jim Blair Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 07:11:13 To: ; Subject: RE: fsj: parts run... Since the trans requires dismantling to get that solenoid, they will avoid at all costs having to do it. Sadly they won't put any Lubeguard in which tends to fix the sticky ones and it's the only factory certified additive. > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 00:33:06 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: > Subject: fsj: parts run... > > found silver body parts for the deer damaged jetta (2003 silver wagon 5spd)in chehalis... > the wrecking yard said they were good parts... hah! drove 120 miles to find nothing as described. > > spent several hours roaming the wrecking yard finding bits and pieces of broken and bent parts... > > found a hood, but it was slightly dented, bought it anyway... reasonable fender... frosted headlight > with a broken tab(but good bulbs!!!), mirror without glass(discount)... :) had to swap hoods in the parking lot... > > tossed the rest of the pieces in the back of the wagon and zipped up I-5 to centralia to curtis' > > two hours later we had the parts installed and I bought him a pizza for dinner... he's been working > on superdawg, pictures at: > http://fotomeister.us/2011/09-Sep-13-JettaRepair-SuperDawg-Centralia/ALL.html > > we got the other jetta (2002 white Sedan with AT) out of aamco this morning... > they messed up the grille putting an external trans cooler on it... > they didn't do anything to the transmission though... and are trying to blame > the shifting problem on the Diesel engine... the "technician" explained to me that there was a > vacuum problem... showed me the vaccum lines and said they were all cracked... they weren't, they're > the typical cloth covered vacuum lines seen on a lot of German cars... then he proceeded to explain > to me how the little flapper thing (the egr) was controlled by engine vacuum and that it was causing > the engine to stumble on throttle opening... he pointed to the little round thing on the end of the > engine (the temperature switch to allow vacuum to the egr once warm) and said that's why the shift > from 1-2 was causing the engine to fall on it's face... > > I think he saw the look on my face... I think explained to him that Diesels don't have little flapper > things to control air flow and that thing he was pointing to was the EGR and the other thing the temp > control to only make it work once it was warmed up... > > So I asked questions about the transmission... are there any vacuum controls? no. it's all electronic. > were there any codes in the computer. no. So, basically they don't understand Diesels so they blamed > the shifting problem on it. > > I don't understand how even a throttle position sensor could cause a problem only in one gear and not > spit up a code... I still think there is an issue with the 1-2 solenoid or valve in the TDI/AT trans. > > we'll see... I have a "free" diagnostic check coupon from the local VW dealer and an airbag light > that I tripped by accident, so I'll have them check the codes, clear the airbag indicator and give > my throttle position a clean bill of health... thinking I'll take the car to dave's transmission in > lynnwood, have them fix it and send aamco the bill. This is the fourth or fifth time they've tried to > fix it... competence is not evident in any of the folks I've dealt with... they've damaged more than > they've fixed and lost significant parts of the car... (skid plates, battery covers, inner fenders...) > > all this to say, AVOID FRANCHISE repair outfits... wish the PO had. :) > > now, I need to decide if I'm going to keep the '87 300D or the '03 Jetta TDI wagon... > > john > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3805 **************************