From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Dec 11 17:44:00 2011 From: fsj-digest To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 01:44:02 +0000 Subject: fsj-digest V1 #3826 fsj-digest Monday, December 12 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3826 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: a random automotive quiz RE: fsj: a random automotive quiz RE: fsj: a random automotive quiz RE: fsj: Fleet update. Re: fsj: a random automotive quiz fsj: a random automotive quiz - update RE: fsj: a random automotive quiz FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:23:25 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: a random automotive quiz a friend of mine has a shop and he sent me this little story/quiz... I nailed it at first glance, but after owning over 125 cars and wrenching for 4 decades I'd better... let's see how you do... your answer could determine how much money you might spend on fixing a somewhat common problem... while it relates to a Jeep it could apply to almost any other vehicle... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 TRSTGZS http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ from a friend with a shop... Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:24:25 +1100 I have a customers Jeep arriving on Tuesday, it has been to four mechanics in "SOME CITY" who were unable to fix it, I will give you its symptoms as described to me and I bet you can tell me what the issue is, I already have the part here ready to repair the car. 1. Initial startup is fine, car runs perfectly. 2. After between 10 and 30 minutes the car becomes sluggish, the more you press the go pedal the slower it goes. 3. Stop the car leave it for ten minutes and the story starts over. 4. Temp is in the high range, pushing to 95 to 100 on the gauge. No error codes come up....nothing, yet the o2 sensor was replaced, sender unit to the thermo fan was replaced, thermostat replaced, clutch fan replaced, none of this work was done by me obviously, I know what the issue is, the poor owner is out of pocket over a grand my charges will be less then $200.00 inc labor. The guy was at the last mechanics place being told it required a 02 sensor when the guy said that's just been replaced, another customer that was there gave him my number and said "this guy breeds Jeeps, knows them inside out and will tell over the phone what the issue is". Which I have done, gotta love a good reputation. Who this customer is I have no idea, but I have had calls from as far away as "SOME CITY EVEN FARTHER AWAY" in regards to Jeep repairs and sending up parts. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:42:11 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: a random automotive quiz Sounds like a clogged cat to me. Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:23:25 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: > Subject: fsj: a random automotive quiz > > a friend of mine has a shop and he sent me this little story/quiz... > I nailed it at first glance, > but after owning over 125 cars and wrenching for 4 decades I'd better... > > > let's see how you do... > > > your answer could determine how much money you might spend on fixing a somewhat common problem... > > while it relates to a Jeep it could apply to almost any other vehicle... > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 TRSTGZS > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > from a friend with a shop... > > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:24:25 +1100 > > I have a customers Jeep arriving on Tuesday, it has been to > four mechanics in "SOME CITY" who were unable to fix it, I will > give you its symptoms as described to me and I bet you can > tell me what the issue is, I already have the part here ready > to repair the car. > > 1. Initial startup is fine, car runs perfectly. > 2. After between 10 and 30 minutes the car becomes sluggish, > the more you press the go pedal the slower it goes. > 3. Stop the car leave it for ten minutes and the story starts over. > 4. Temp is in the high range, pushing to 95 to 100 on the gauge. > > No error codes come up....nothing, yet the o2 sensor was replaced, > sender unit to the thermo fan was replaced, thermostat replaced, > clutch fan replaced, none of this work was done by me obviously, > I know what the issue is, the poor owner is out of pocket over a > grand my charges will be less then $200.00 inc labor. > > The guy was at the last mechanics place being told it required a > 02 sensor when the guy said that's just been replaced, another > customer that was there gave him my number and said "this guy > breeds Jeeps, knows them inside out and will tell over the phone > what the issue is". Which I have done, gotta love a good reputation. > > Who this customer is I have no idea, but I have had calls from as > far away as "SOME CITY EVEN FARTHER AWAY" in regards to Jeep repairs and > sending up parts. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:54:00 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: a random automotive quiz is that your FINAL ANSWER sir? ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 TRSTGZS http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Jim Blair wrote: # # Sounds like a clogged cat to me. # # Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will # like them only Entangle and hold the poor and # weak, while the rich and powerful will easily # break through them # # ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) # # > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:23:25 -0800 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: # > Subject: fsj: a random automotive quiz # > # > a friend of mine has a shop and he sent me this little story/quiz... # > I nailed it at first glance, # > but after owning over 125 cars and wrenching for 4 decades I'd better... # > # > # > let's see how you do... # > # > # > your answer could determine how much money you might spend on fixing a somewhat common problem... # > # > while it relates to a Jeep it could apply to almost any other vehicle... # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all # > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 TRSTGZS # > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > from a friend with a shop... # > # > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:24:25 +1100 # > # > I have a customers Jeep arriving on Tuesday, it has been to # > four mechanics in "SOME CITY" who were unable to fix it, I will # > give you its symptoms as described to me and I bet you can # > tell me what the issue is, I already have the part here ready # > to repair the car. # > # > 1. Initial startup is fine, car runs perfectly. # > 2. After between 10 and 30 minutes the car becomes sluggish, # > the more you press the go pedal the slower it goes. # > 3. Stop the car leave it for ten minutes and the story starts over. # > 4. Temp is in the high range, pushing to 95 to 100 on the gauge. # > # > No error codes come up....nothing, yet the o2 sensor was replaced, # > sender unit to the thermo fan was replaced, thermostat replaced, # > clutch fan replaced, none of this work was done by me obviously, # > I know what the issue is, the poor owner is out of pocket over a # > grand my charges will be less then $200.00 inc labor. # > # > The guy was at the last mechanics place being told it required a # > 02 sensor when the guy said that's just been replaced, another # > customer that was there gave him my number and said "this guy # > breeds Jeeps, knows them inside out and will tell over the phone # > what the issue is". Which I have done, gotta love a good reputation. # > # > Who this customer is I have no idea, but I have had calls from as # > far away as "SOME CITY EVEN FARTHER AWAY" in regards to Jeep repairs and # > sending up parts. # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:17:29 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Fleet update. From: carnuck-at-hotmail.com To: fullsizejeeps-at-gmail.com Subject: RE: fsj: Fleet update. Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:15:19 -0800 #1: about 50 ft/lbs http://www.thetoolhut.com/Torque-Conversion-English-Metric.html #2: I was talking about the key mechanism being frozen from rust. #3: oil pan/pump should swap but the turbo version is higher volume due to the cylinder squirters. #4: I would pull the glass and re-seal it properly. The gunk built up around the leak area will keep most sealers from sticking. I think the last couple years of production went to the tar/ urethane roll sealer? If the glass didn't change, then that would be the way to go. > Subject: fsj: Fleet update. > From: fullsizejeeps-at-gmail.com > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 01:12:32 +0000 > > Some general questions. > > 1st question: what is 70 NM in ft lbs? Most of the rear suspension links on my 87 300D called that out. Need to retighten everything after driving it for a while. > > 2nd question: any tips on getting the back hatch of an 97 jeep cherokee country rear hatch open? And no it's not frozen, it's not that cold here and it hasn't worked since summertime. :) > > 3rd question: anyone know what the oil pump differences are on a Nissan SD33T and the SD33? Swapping pans between and 80 scout and an 86 cj-10a so my 83 j10 will have the right pan to clear the axle. > > 4th question: is there an easy way to find a windshield leak? My (other) 83 j10 leaks a little on the passenger side. I'm leary of going to a glass shop because they will try to seal it with silicon, when it might just be a bad gasket. The fsj windshields come out with a zip lock type gasket. If I can find the leak and it's not too bad just put enough silicon on to stop the leak without making it impossible to get the windshield out later. > > > Got the tdi jetta back from having the AT rebuilt. Need to fix a few things they messed up but thankfully nothing serious. The rebuild seems fine. The amsoil suggestion was good. Their shop help didn't put the pieces back properly so I'll be futzing around with grille and hood alignment later. They were going to charge me for some external sensors that had been damaged because some one had poked through the insulation. We agreed it was the original franchise that was closed by corporate and I agreed to fix/replace the messed up body and shield parts so they covered everything under warranty and didn't charge me for the external parts or anything else. I was facing about 600 worth of stuff not covered by the warranty that wasn't the fault of this shop. I'm glad it's over, prayers for a peaceful resolution were answered. Now praying for wisdom on keeping it. > > So far so good, been driving it all over today. We'll see. I found a couple Diesel 4x4s and now might be a good time to step away from this car. My wife has lost confidence in it, but I think we're switching and she'll drive the 1987 Mercedes 300D. > > That's funny. She trusts a 26 year old Mercedes Diesel with 241,000 miles on it MORE than a 10 year old VW with only 116,000 miles. > > Low mileage cars make me nervous. Yeah, I know that sounds strange. But the high mileage cars that were in good shape have almost always been more reliable and less hassle than the lower miled rigs. This is especially true with WJs and the mid to late 90's mercedes. > > Which makes me wonder if I shouldn't consider that 212,ooo mile jetta wagon. :) > > I'm still toying with the idea of a Diesel tj/wj/xj/yj - but really just need curtis to put my j10 back together. > > John > __john_at_http://wagoneers.com__ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:36:37 -0800 From: Michel Balea Subject: Re: fsj: a random automotive quiz I thought that the cat would take less time... if plugged, it would be within a few minutes. We know that it is a recent model with a bunch of sensors.... Fuel pump was my first thought, but the 30 min could be something like a temp sensor that sends the wrong signal to the cpu turning it into cold start and making it rich. Coolant temp sensor, or one of those numerous temp sensor that new cars have. This is why I decided to stick with old Wagoneers (74, 85 and the back up 66 if we have to return to smog check for all vehicles), even that 86 Honda civic is getting to be too much. I changed the alternator it was dead... but some sensor tells me that it is not charging correctly... I added a voltmeter that says that it is charging. Best, Michel On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 10:54 PM, john wrote: > is that your FINAL ANSWER sir? > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 TRSTGZS > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Jim Blair wrote: > > # > # Sounds like a clogged cat to me. > # > # Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will > # like them only Entangle and hold the poor and > # weak, while the rich and powerful will easily > # break through them > # > # ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > # > # > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:23:25 -0800 > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > # > To: > # > Subject: fsj: a random automotive quiz > # > > # > a friend of mine has a shop and he sent me this little story/quiz... > # > I nailed it at first glance, > # > but after owning over 125 cars and wrenching for 4 decades I'd better... > # > > # > > # > let's see how you do... > # > > # > > # > your answer could determine how much money you might spend on fixing a somewhat common problem... > # > > # > while it relates to a Jeep it could apply to almost any other vehicle... > # > > # > ----- > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all > # > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 TRSTGZS > # > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > # > > # > from a friend with a shop... > # > > # > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:24:25 +1100 > # > > # > I have a customers Jeep arriving on Tuesday, it has been to > # > four mechanics in "SOME CITY" who were unable to fix it, I will > # > give you its symptoms as described to me and I bet you can > # > tell me what the issue is, I already have the part here ready > # > to repair the car. > # > > # > 1. Initial startup is fine, car runs perfectly. > # > 2. After between 10 and 30 minutes the car becomes sluggish, > # > the more you press the go pedal the slower it goes. > # > 3. Stop the car leave it for ten minutes and the story starts over. > # > 4. Temp is in the high range, pushing to 95 to 100 on the gauge. > # > > # > No error codes come up....nothing, yet the o2 sensor was replaced, > # > sender unit to the thermo fan was replaced, thermostat replaced, > # > clutch fan replaced, none of this work was done by me obviously, > # > I know what the issue is, the poor owner is out of pocket over a > # > grand my charges will be less then $200.00 inc labor. > # > > # > The guy was at the last mechanics place being told it required a > # > 02 sensor when the guy said that's just been replaced, another > # > customer that was there gave him my number and said "this guy > # > breeds Jeeps, knows them inside out and will tell over the phone > # > what the issue is". Which I have done, gotta love a good reputation. > # > > # > Who this customer is I have no idea, but I have had calls from as > # > far away as "SOME CITY EVEN FARTHER AWAY" in regards to Jeep repairs and > # > sending up parts. > # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:15:54 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: a random automotive quiz - update a couple notes, the temp is in C/Metric... (the problem is common, but my friend isn't in the states) a few have nailed it right off... bravo... thanx for not going on the list with the correct answer, this is a good brain teaser that gets all of us thinking about these sorts of things... which should result in reduced repair costs by shops/dealerships and mechanics that will play guessing games with YOUR money... (remember, that's why these lists were started... to help folks avoid being ripped off and to share common knowledge) anyway, others are close... some very close... food for thought... if the fuel filter is clogged or the fuel pump failing, how would that result in a lean condition? reduction of available fuel results in loss of power and available energy... the timing and fuel distribution should not be modified, except maybe with a carb rig... a fuel injected system would just lose power, not run lean... same thing with a clogged air filter... loss of air would result in a rich condition, but the feedback systems on a newer (circa mid-80s and up) would adapt to this... and if an ignition module or coil were failing how could that cause a lean condition as usually they produce less spark and power and things tend to go rich that way... good thinking nonetheles... I think those of you that nailed it out of the box have experienced it... like I have... not a fun experience, I mean when I stomp that go pedal, I want to go... :) will post the answer later this evening... heading out shortly to look at a potential Jeep/Frankenstein project this afternoon... :) get the popcorn ready... :) and yes, long term it will involve another Diesel... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold 1983 J10 - 2X / 1987 300d / 2003 Jetta TDI / ?????? what's next? :) http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 TRSTGZS http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Initial startup is fine, car runs perfectly. 2. After between 10 and 30 minutes the car becomes sluggish, the more you press the go pedal the slower it goes. 3. Stop the car leave it for ten minutes and the story starts over. 4. Temp is in the high range, pushing to 95 to 100 on the gauge. No error codes come up....nothing, yet the o2 sensor was replaced, sender unit to the thermo fan was replaced, thermostat replaced, clutch fan replaced, none of this work was done by me obviously, I know what the issue is, the poor owner is out of pocket over a grand my charges will be less then $200.00 inc labor. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:43:34 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: a random automotive quiz Faulty temp/knock sensors combined with a bad ground wire can do it too. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:36:37 -0800 > Subject: Re: fsj: a random automotive quiz > From: michelbalea-at-gmail.com > To: john-at-wagoneers.com > CC: carnuck1-at-msn.com; fsj-at-digest.net > > I thought that the cat would take less time... if plugged, it would be > within a few minutes. > > We know that it is a recent model with a bunch of sensors.... > > Fuel pump was my first thought, but the 30 min could be something like > a temp sensor that sends the wrong signal to the cpu turning it into > cold start and making it rich. Coolant temp sensor, or one of those > numerous temp sensor that new cars have. > > This is why I decided to stick with old Wagoneers (74, 85 and the back > up 66 if we have to return to smog check for all vehicles), even that > 86 Honda civic is getting to be too much. I changed the alternator it > was dead... but some sensor tells me that it is not charging > correctly... I added a voltmeter that says that it is charging. > > Best, > > Michel > > > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 10:54 PM, john wrote: > > is that your FINAL ANSWER sir? > > ----- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all > > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold > > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 TRSTGZS > > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Jim Blair wrote: > > > > # > > # Sounds like a clogged cat to me. > > # > > # Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will > > # like them only Entangle and hold the poor and > > # weak, while the rich and powerful will easily > > # break through them > > # > > # ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > > # > > # > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:23:25 -0800 > > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > > # > To: > > # > Subject: fsj: a random automotive quiz > > # > > > # > a friend of mine has a shop and he sent me this little story/quiz... > > # > I nailed it at first glance, > > # > but after owning over 125 cars and wrenching for 4 decades I'd > better... > > # > > > # > > > # > let's see how you do... > > # > > > # > > > # > your answer could determine how much money you might spend on fixing a > somewhat common problem... > > # > > > # > while it relates to a Jeep it could apply to almost any other > vehicle... > > # > > > # > ----- > > # > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > # > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all > > # > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold > > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 TRSTGZS > > # > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > > # > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > # > > > # > from a friend with a shop... > > # > > > # > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:24:25 +1100 > > # > > > # > I have a customers Jeep arriving on Tuesday, it has been to > > # > four mechanics in "SOME CITY" who were unable to fix it, I will > > # > give you its symptoms as described to me and I bet you can > > # > tell me what the issue is, I already have the part here ready > > # > to repair the car. > > # > > > # > 1. Initial startup is fine, car runs perfectly. > > # > 2. After between 10 and 30 minutes the car becomes sluggish, > > # > the more you press the go pedal the slower it goes. > > # > 3. Stop the car leave it for ten minutes and the story starts over. > > # > 4. Temp is in the high range, pushing to 95 to 100 on the gauge. > > # > > > # > No error codes come up....nothing, yet the o2 sensor was replaced, > > # > sender unit to the thermo fan was replaced, thermostat replaced, > > # > clutch fan replaced, none of this work was done by me obviously, > > # > I know what the issue is, the poor owner is out of pocket over a > > # > grand my charges will be less then $200.00 inc labor. > > # > > > # > The guy was at the last mechanics place being told it required a > > # > 02 sensor when the guy said that's just been replaced, another > > # > customer that was there gave him my number and said "this guy > > # > breeds Jeeps, knows them inside out and will tell over the phone > > # > what the issue is". Which I have done, gotta love a good reputation. > > # > > > # > Who this customer is I have no idea, but I have had calls from as > > # > far away as "SOME CITY EVEN FARTHER AWAY" in regards to Jeep repairs > and > > # > sending up parts. > > # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3826 **************************