From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-krusty-motorsports.com Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #76 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Friday, January 15 1999 Volume 01 : Number 076 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles John Meister Digest Coordinator Contents: broken wire? or bad engine ground? RE: broken wire? or bad engine ground? RE: broken wire? or bad engine ground? Antennae Motor Story Some more cooling issues... Re: Some more cooling issues... Re: Some more cooling issues... Re: Some more cooling issues... the power of Fritz Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:39:22 -0800 From: john Subject: broken wire? or bad engine ground? It appears to me that I have a ground problem. Well, actually Fritz has the ground problem and I have a problem in that I can't drive Fritz to work... so WE have a problem... :) I disconnected the wires from the starter and reconnected them, it looked as though the brown wire going to the starter had worked loose... cleaned everything up, retightened everything and it still didn't work... The wire appears bent in a few places which might mean an internal break, but I wiggled the wires and there was no change. Any idea where that brown wire goes? I think it goes to the neutral safety switch... somewhere... The manual talks about a ground for the engine. Where is the cable that connects to M5? (engine ground?) Additional history: Every now and then over the last few months Fritz (an 81 300D) wouldn't start, nothing just turn the key and things would go dead. I wiggled the wires down by the starter and he'd fire right up and keep on truckin'. Until last night after a final tweak to the vacuum system... hmmm... maybe I jostled a wire over on the driver's side... Anyways, he's taking tomorrow off... again... Which means I'll have to drive the little wagoneer... It's amazing how different it is driving a Jeep with 190,000 miles... :) I actually used to like driving it... In a way I'm glad my wife has claimed it... The only time I like driving it now is when we have a snowstorm or when I'm up 4 wheeling it... :) HEP!!! I need my Mercedes fixed! :) Anybody out there? Where's the engine ground wire live? Anybody ever had this problem before??? :) john ------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com - http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------------------------------------------------- http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ (81 300D) ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:14:45 -0500 From: "Jeff Domogala" Subject: RE: broken wire? or bad engine ground? John, There should be a heavy braided wire going from one of the lower bolts on the transmission bell housing to the body. If it is not there then that is most likely the problem, and you must wonder where the engine was making ground... If the wire is there, disconnect it from the body and clean both mating surfaces for a good contact. I would clean the mating surfaces for the ground wire that also goes to the body from the battery. Corrosion can be a killer. Last but maybe not too obvious.... maybe the battery is a goner. Take it to a Sears and have them test the CCA. The battery may appear ok until it is put under heavy load, where it will just give up... everything in the car will go close to dead when you attempt to crank the starter. Jeff Jeff/Laura/Ashley Domogala Windham, New Hampshire mailto:domogala-at-bit-net.com http://www.bit-net.com/~domogala ] -----Original Message----- ] From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net ] [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john ] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 1:39 AM ] To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net ] Subject: broken wire? or bad engine ground? ] ] ] It appears to me that I have a ground problem. Well, actually ] Fritz has the ground problem and I have a problem in that I can't ] drive Fritz to work... so WE have a problem... :) ] ] I disconnected the wires from the starter and reconnected them, ] it looked as though the brown wire going to the starter had worked ] loose... cleaned everything up, retightened everything and it still ] didn't work... The wire appears bent in a few places which might ] mean an internal break, but I wiggled the wires and there was no ] change. ] ] Any idea where that brown wire goes? I think it goes to the neutral ] safety switch... somewhere... ] ] The manual talks about a ground for the engine. ] Where is the cable that connects to M5? (engine ground?) ] ] Additional history: ] Every now and then over the last few months ] Fritz (an 81 300D) wouldn't start, nothing just turn the key and ] things would go dead. I wiggled the wires down by the starter ] and he'd fire right up and keep on truckin'. Until last night ] after a final tweak to the vacuum system... hmmm... maybe I ] jostled a wire over on the driver's side... ] ] Anyways, he's taking tomorrow off... again... Which means I'll ] have to drive the little wagoneer... It's amazing how different ] it is driving a Jeep with 190,000 miles... :) I actually used ] to like driving it... In a way I'm glad my wife has claimed it... ] The only time I like driving it now is when we have a snowstorm ] or when I'm up 4 wheeling it... :) ] ] HEP!!! I need my Mercedes fixed! :) Anybody out there? Where's ] the engine ground wire live? Anybody ever had this problem before??? ] ] :) ] john ] ------------------------------------------------- ] john-at-virtual-cafe.com - http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john ] http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/ ] Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ] ------------------------------------------------- ] http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ (81 300D) ] ------------------------------------------------- ] ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:40:37 -0800 From: john Subject: RE: broken wire? or bad engine ground? At 08:14 AM 1/14/99 -0500, Jeff Domogala wrote: >John, >There should be a heavy braided wire going from one of the lower bolts on >the transmission bell housing to the body. If it is not there then that is >most likely the problem, and you must wonder where the engine was making >ground... If the wire is there, disconnect it from the body and clean both >mating surfaces for a good contact. I would clean the mating surfaces for >the ground wire that also goes to the body from the battery. Corrosion can >be a killer. Last but maybe not too obvious.... maybe the battery is a >goner. Take it to a Sears and have them test the CCA. The battery may >appear ok until it is put under heavy load, where it will just give up... >everything in the car will go close to dead when you attempt to crank the >starter. >Jeff >Jeff/Laura/Ashley Domogala >Windham, New Hampshire >mailto:domogala-at-bit-net.com >http://www.bit-net.com/~domogala thanx Jeff... I'll crawl underneath tonight and check out the ground cable. I doubt it's the battery as the parking lights (euro style) still work without problem, but the interior lights are dim and slow, different circuit... I thought about the battery too... Also, on the alternator there is a threaded rod that sticks up to one side, but there is no nut on it??? Did something rattle off? will keep y'all posted. btw, most parts stores have battery testers and less incentive to sell ya a new battery... I steer clear of franchise repair places like sears, especially with a mercedes. :) NAPA and CarQuest are nationwide and depend on the local folks, but most are top notch. The problem with outfits like sears, midas, goodyear, firestone, etc. is that they don't usually attract the good mechanics or knowledgeable staff... I worked on one Y2K type IS project with a guy that had been a service advisor for sears... the guy barely knew how to drive a car let alone work on it or diagnose it. :) But then again, I have trouble sometimes with the mechanics I know and trust... Car repair of any make is very challenging! I've been working on stuff since the 60's and it's hard finding good mechanics you can trust... my heart goes out to folks that aren't mechanically inclined that are in love with their old Benz' or Jeeps... I spend a lot of time answering email from folks trying to work through issues because they just don't know and are being robbed, or worse the mechanic they're going to doesn't know any better and isn't smart enough to know it!!! I like the quote in the recent STAR magazine... about the "foreign car" mechanics... how true. :) Mercedes are extremely unique. But after working on Fritz and the three others I've owned, once you understand how they work repair is much easier. These cars are WELL DESIGNED. I'm not finding fatal design flaws on my 300D like I find on the same vintage Jeeps or GM vehicles, or even a BMW or VW. Mercedes is in a class all it's own. If I were to go back to work as a mechanic I think I should like to become Mercedes qualified. :) But don't count on that happening anytime soon... my boss would kill me. He wants me to keep working on HP's and Sun's... :) so much for the soapbox, back to work on computers all day, come home throw on the coveralls and pickup round 2 of Fritz and the bad ground... thanx again Jeff for the location of the ground wire... (Ya know it's a lot harder getting under a 300D than it is a Jeep... :) I don't have to jack up my Jeep to get underneath it... :) later, john - ---------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Real FREEDOM comes through knowing Jesus http://www.wagoneers.com/BIBLE/Bible-1999.html - ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:19:15 -0500 From: Marty Smith Subject: Antennae Motor Story Folks: Two weeks ago we were in VT with the '85 300 TD and on Sunday morning (-15 degrees) the battery was dead. We got road service to start us up, and came home to MA. On Monday morning I went out to start her up, and she was dead as a door nail. Got road service to start her up again, but no go. The battery would not take a charge, so we towed her to the garage. They checked her out, no apparent problem, good battery, etc. Put her on the trickle charge and next day took her home. I drove her Thursday and Friday, no problem, Saturday morning she was dead again. Got out the trickle charger and fired her up over the weekend. Tried to start her Monday, dead again. Got her down to the garage on Tuesday after an all night trickle charge. Now we're all scratching our heads, where is she losing charge? We had checked the battery ground, and all the loose connections, and everything obvious. I remembered that the last time I drove her before she died the first time, that the antennae motor had quit with the antennae in a mid rise position. I just figured it was something we'd fix in the spring, I'd just leave it in the up position and not use the car wash. Well, it appears that if your antennae motor dies in a position other than shut down, there is a sensor which sends out a signal every 10 seconds to that motor telling it to turn on and complete its cycle. With that pulse is a 10 amp jolt to the motor and if the car sits for any length of time not recharging the battery, it will drain your battery. Moral of the story: Don't ignore the death of those luxury goodies on these cars. On a Ford ,the death of an antennae wouldn't matter, on a Mercedes, it'll prevent your car from starting! Any one know of any other goodies like this that will sabotage your car? mart M. Blakey Smith AIA Manager of Planning and Architecture Facilities Planning Division University of Massachusetts Amherst 360 Campus Center Way Amherst MA 01003 (voice) 413-545-6496 (fax) 413-545-3684 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:05:07 +0100 From: "Pieter Noorlander" Subject: Some more cooling issues... Hello all, I bought the radiator anti leak stuff this afternoon, but did not use it yet. That's because the radiator stopped leaking. It's obviously a small hole and was only leaking when Herman was hot, but now he's too cold all the time! The outside temperature overhere dropped about 10 deg C during last week and the temp gauge now doesn't come much higher than 70 deg C... The thermostat is under heavy suspicion, because at first with the warmer weather Herman was overheating very quickly (temps above 100 deg C) and now will not get warm enough. Am I right? In advance of your possible answers/advises (hope you're still willing to help a wannabe mechanic :-)) I already bought a new thermostat, only about $20,- at the Mercedes dealer :) BTW, they have a terrific way of knowing what part is right for your car, don't know if they use it in the States too, but here is how it works: I ordered it over the phone and the first thing the guy on the other side wanted to know was the chassis#. After that he could tell the engine and transmission type and model, and all sorts of other information about my Benz. Not very likely to go home with the wrong parts this way :) I suppose I have to drain the coolant before replacing the stat, so what is the story about Mercedes OEM coolant? I saw some people on other list/NG telling that is the only way to go when you really care about your Benz. True? If so, why? Thanks again and keep up the good work! Pieter 83 300TD (Herman) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:57:59 PDT From: kc7nol-at-juno.com (Daniel A Jacobs) Subject: Re: Some more cooling issues... On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:05:07 +0100 "Pieter Noorlander" >I suppose I have to drain the coolant before replacing the stat, so >what is >the story about Mercedes OEM coolant? I saw some people on other >list/NG >telling that is the only way to go when you really care about your >Benz. >True? If so, why? > >Thanks again and keep up the good work! > >Pieter >83 300TD (Herman) I don't think they had the special coolants back in '83, Pieter. If you want to put any of the name brand long life/low silicate coolants in there instead of the regular green stuff, that would be a change for the better. The new long life coolants are colors other than bright green, like orange, for example. I just bought some for my '83 Gold Wing -at- the Schucks auto parts down the way for $7.99/gallon, and it mixes 70% coolant/30% water for maximum protection, wich if i remember correctly is - -80* to 270* F. Dan kc7nol-at-juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:25:23 -0600 From: "Jon Filina" Subject: Re: Some more cooling issues... Pieter was saying: >BTW, they have a terrific way of knowing what part is right for your car, >don't know if they use it in the States too, but here is how it works: I >ordered it over the phone and the first thing the guy on the other side >wanted to know was the chassis#. After that he could tell the engine and >transmission type and model, and all sorts of other information about my >Benz. Not very likely to go home with the wrong parts this way :) It depends on the part. I recently replaced the heater blower motor on my '81 240D. The local dealer quoted me $185 for the motor. I felt I could do better. I finally bought it at a local parts house for the same price. When I went to install it, it was the wrong one. If they'd noticed that the parts changed in mid year, they would have asked for my chassis serial number. The blower motor on my '81 is the same one for '82... I, also, replaced the Herschmann antenna. The dealer quoted $147. It turned out to be the wrong part. One of their mechanics told them to check the "blue pages" and located the correct one. What I've learned from this is to ask if there was a change in parts for the model year and give them my chassis s/n if there was. Also, if the newer part doesn't have adapters to mate up with the old ones, have them check the "blue pages". > >I suppose I have to drain the coolant before replacing the stat, so what is >the story about Mercedes OEM coolant? I saw some people on other list/NG >telling that is the only way to go when you really care about your Benz. >True? If so, why? It has to do with the ph balance of the MB brand coolant. From what I've read, the "green stuff" can cause the plastic neck on some of the radiators to crack in addition to a buildup of corrosion inside the system. I've got "der green stuff" in my system now, but will replace it with the MB brand this spring...just to be safe! If I am reading between the lines correctly, if you drain and flush the cooling system yearly, you shouldn't have any problems. My 240D had the "green stuff" in it when I got it, and the radiator looked fine. But, I'll thoroughly flush it this spring and put the "MB stuff" in it to be safe. Jon '81 240D "Mathilde" 216,000 mi. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:32:27 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: Some more cooling issues... At 12:05 AM 1/15/99 +0100, Pieter Noorlander wrote: >BTW, they have a terrific way of knowing what part is right for your car, >don't know if they use it in the States too, but here is how it works: I >ordered it over the phone and the first thing the guy on the other side >wanted to know was the chassis#. After that he could tell the engine and >transmission type and model, and all sorts of other information about my >Benz. Not very likely to go home with the wrong parts this way :) Without the chassis number of your car they can't even figure out what you need. :) I think the reason for this is the long run of the same body style. With the VIN they are able to determine the production date and options. Very rarely does this happen with a Jeep, mostly with Carburaters and such... >>I suppose I have to drain the coolant before replacing the stat, so what is don't have to if it's not that old, but it's always good to use fresh, use a 50/50 mixture. john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:25:37 -0800 From: john Subject: the power of Fritz Well, I found the ground cable frame to engine, cleaned and tightened it, as well as the main ground. Still no start. When I turn the key to accessory I get this incredible buzzing, clicking sound, JUST LIKE A DEAD battery. Hmmmm... So I throw the battery charger on and it's only drawing about 5 amps. Hmmm... Check the levels, ok. I turn on the headlight switch with the key to accessory, BRIGHT LIGHTS, and also a heavy draw on the Battery Charger... Hmmm... so I just ran out, turned off the battery charger which just happened to be at zero anyway. Turned the key to accessory, nothing, nada, turned on the light switch and walked around front... Hmmm... didn't know headlights could be that dim... Walked over to the battery charger, kicked it on and voila, bright lights! That thereby eliminated grounds, wiring and switches. What we have here is a dead battery. The problem I have is UNDERSTANDING how a random, intermittent even, problem all of a sudden became a dead battery. The symptoms had been, wiggle the wire and Fritz starts. Then all of a sudden, nothing. Morale of the story is keep an open mind when troubleshooting. The symptoms may change because new problems come about! Strange one though... Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone on the list just go through this same scenario? Wasn't it Grandma someone? :) I think she dropped off the list a few weeks ago.. Anyways, it was a DieHard battery. Can't tell when it was put in, possibly 1987 from the codes on top. Not bad, 12 years, and even made it through our "winter", the two weeks of really cold weather we had. I'll probably be putting in a NAPA or possibly another DieHard... I wonder if AAA can jump this beast? I doubt the little wagoneer would be able to. Might give it a try in the morning... it's an awful lot to expect of my jumper cables though... :) john ------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com - http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------------------------------------------------- http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ (81 300D) ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #76 ********************************