From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-krusty-motorsports.com Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #120 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Saturday, April 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 120 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles John Meister Digest Coordinator Contents: little known Diesel facts Re: little known Diesel facts - NOx Re: little known Diesel facts - NOx 240D Overheated Part 2 RE: 300D Re: 240D Overheated Part 2 RE: 300D Morning Starts Re: Morning Starts Re: Morning Starts sproing? Re: sproing? Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 22:50:18 -0700 From: john Subject: little known Diesel facts The cruise liner, Queen Elizabeth II, moves only six inches for each gallon of diesel that it burns. 6 inches => 1 gallon 12 inches => 2 gallons 1 mile = 5,280 feet => 10,560 gallons From NY, NY to Southampton, England --> 3,169 nautical miles statue miles = nautical * 1.15 => 3,644.35 statue miles 3644.35 * 10560 = 38,484,336 gallons used !!! for a one way cruise at current $1.31 US (Snohomish, WA) Diesel prices, this little jaunt would cost $ 50,414,480.16 (that's $50 MILLION!) (of course you wouldn't have to pay the $0.43 / gallon taxes we pay here so it'd probably ONLY be $ 33,866,215.68 a "savings" of $ 16,548,264.48 ... rofl... I wonder what the fuel consumption would be IF they could use gasoline... :) BTW, the April 99 issue of Automobile Magazine, pg 28, cites that Diesels are 40% MORE efficient than gas engines and produce 50% LOWER Carbon Dioxide emissions! (also, the oxides of Nitrogen are typically 40 to 50% less than a comparable gas engine, see Chilton's DIESEL Guide) The article discussed future uses of Diesel engines that meet tighter federal and California emission standards AND fuel economy. The key is the fuel itself. Much of the current Diesel fuel still has too much sulfur in it to use a catalytic converter. HOWEVER, using synthesized Diesel fuel created from wood, as the Germans did in WWII, they can create a Fuel that is very enviromentally friendly! BTW, the smell most people dislike about Diesels is the aldehyde. john http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/Technical/ - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 00:49:09 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: little known Diesel facts - NOx At 12:14 AM 4/9/99 -0700, James Blair wrote: >Umm, that's backwards John! Diesels produce MORE, not less NOx than gas >engines (at least post '80 engines). sorry, but here are the facts (albeit prior to 80, but the laws of physics and chemistry related to combustion didn't change...) ==================================================== A study was done by VW on a Rabbit with a gasoline and Diesel engine of identical output. The gasoline engine was a 1.1 liter engine producing 50 PS (roughly the same as horsepower) and the Diesel engine a 1.5 liter producing 50 PS. Three items were measured. CO, HC and NOx - Carbon Monoxide, Hydrocarbons and Oxides of Nitrogen. CO HC NOx Gasoline: 23.17 2.22 2.76 Diesel: 1.0 0.25 1.2 I'm not certain of the specific measurement or test, I would suspect these reading would be in ppm. But notice that regardless of units the Diesel engine is around 40% of the gas engine. Source: Advanced Automotive Power Systems Part I: Morphological Systems and System Analysis, SAE Paper #760591, by P. Hofbauer and B. Wiedeman, Volkswagenwerk AG) ============================================================= Long live the DIESEL!!!! :-) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 01:25:08 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: little known Diesel facts - NOx At 12:56 AM 4/9/99 -0700, James Blair wrote: >Now you're talking low compression diesel! I thought you meant a real >engine like a big truck! The GM 6.2L diesel pumps out easily 4 times >what a V8 car does! They get tested for NOx as well as HC and CO in >Canada, and they routinely fail the NOx and HC levels allowable up >there! Not to mention Opacity test, which is killing the oil burner cars >now! James, your compression argument is invalid as the VW Diesels have a higher ratio than the 6.2L. :) You'll also find that the GM Diesels tend to put out less power than they are capable of. I think GM went conservative after they disgraced the Diesel. My Jeep Turbo Diesel (a french Renault 2.1 L ) was pushed much closer to the limit. French engineering does not allow for things like safety margins or error... Which is why I don't like French designs. They give being on the "bleeding edge" a very real meaning... :) Anyways, here's the specifics on compression: 23.5:1 on the wabbit 21.5:1 on the 6.2L Also, the wabbits wun much faster than the 6.2L. It is a very high revving engine... pretty cool really. I've had about 4 of 'em. I had one 6.2L and two 5.7L. I love Diesels... :) My plan is still to put a 6.5L Turbo Diesel (or a 300D) into a J10 stepside. I wouldn't mind finding another XJ with a Turbo Diesel either, but I'm pretty happy with the 4.0L, at least for longevity... mine has over 190,000 miles on it so far. :) They used to measure Hydrocarbons down here. I know, I've had several Diesels run through emissions... VW's, Mercedes, Olds, a GMC, even a Jeep Turbo Diesel. :) It really is a good way of measuring ring wear on a Diesel... The Opacity test is duck soup if you've got your pump dialed in properly. IF you're blowing smoke you're wasting fuel and ruining your engine anyways. If you're blowin' blue smoke your engine is already wasted. If you're blowin' white smoke you have even more problems. :) SO the Opacity test is a fair one. =20 The current test in Washington requires you slam the throttle to the=20 floor, release, slam, release, etc. about three times. It scares the tinkle out of me to hold that slam too long... especially on an=20 interference fit motor like a Rabbit... =20 If you have some specs on more recent comparable engines I'd like to see them. I realize the Federales lowered the boom on NOx in 1980. It is a hard one to deal with with the Diesel. The worst thing you can do to a Diesel is stick an EGR valve on it... good way to wear out rings ahead of their time... you're just taking carbon particles and running them back into the engine in an attempt to lower combustion temperatures to keep from oxidizing the nitrogen that makes up 78(?) % of our atmosphere... :) you can see more Diesel specs at: http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/ http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/Technical john > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > At 12:14 AM 4/9/99 -0700, James Blair wrote:=20 >Umm, that's backwards John! Diesels produce MORE, not less NOx than gas >engines (at least post '80 engines).=20 >sorry, but here are the facts (albeit prior to 80, but the laws of >physics and chemistry related to combustion didn't change...)=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 >A study was done by VW on a Rabbit with a gasoline and Diesel engine of >identical output. The gasoline engine was a 1.1 liter engine producing >50 PS (roughly the same as horsepower) and the Diesel engine a 1.5 liter >producing 50 PS.=20 >Three items were measured. CO, HC and NOx =A0 - Carbon Monoxide, >Hydrocarbons and Oxides of Nitrogen.=20 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CO =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >=A0 HC =A0 =A0 =A0 NOx=20 >Gasoline: 23.17 =A0 =A0 2.22 =A0 =A0 =A0 2.76 >Diesel: =A0 1.0 =A0 =A0 =A0 0.25 =A0 =A0 =A0 1.2=20 >I'm not certain of the specific measurement or test, I would suspect >these reading would be in ppm. =A0 But notice that regardless of units >the Diesel engine is around 40% of the gas engine.=20 >Source: Advanced Automotive Power Systems Part I: Morphological Systems >and=20 >System Analysis, SAE Paper #760591, by P. Hofbauer and B. Wiedeman, >Volkswagenwerk AG)=20 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 >Long live the DIESEL!!!! :-) >john=20 >-----------------------------------------------=20 >=A0john-at-virtual-cafe.com =A0 http://www.wagoneers.com =A0 =A0 =A0 >http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john=20 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html=20 >=A0=A0=A0 =A0 jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA >- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold...=20 >----------------------------------------------- =20 > >Jim Blair, Seattle WA 1983 Cherokee 4 dr >sixaholic!Homepage:http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html=20 > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com =20 http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:33:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Harry Hartz Subject: 240D Overheated Part 2 Well...I had the radiator rebuilt, hoses replaced, a pretty penny for a college student who is driving buses in order to drive his car. The car is holding constant temp, all is fine, I guess the radiator was finished after being in service for 23 years. _________________________________________ Eric Harry Hartz College of Architecture and Urban Planning 711 Catherine Street Ann Arbor, MI 48104 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:43:43 -0700 From: "David Masinick" Subject: RE: 300D John, The follow-up body style to the W123 is the W124, I think. There is also the smaller W201, which was renamed "C-Class" in the early '90's. I am confused by all of the body nomenclature, because the 123 "was" the based vehicle, but the 201 supposedly replaced it as the base vehicle. The 124 seemed to me to be the follow-on car to the 123 because it is a mid-size like the 123, and the 201 seems to be positioned as a "compact". The Mercedes coffee table book I have does not cover this topic well. I like my '82 300D so much that I am considering buying an '85 as a spare. I have heard that the '87 turbo diesel car is very nice, although more complicated to fix. Regards, Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 1999 9:32 PM > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: 300D > > > The more I drive my 81 300D the more I want to drive it... with > one slight exception... I wish it had a bit more power. (I can > just hear the guys with the 240d's groaning... :) > > I checked on the 85 300 Turbo Diesel engine and trans pricing. > about $1750 for the motor complete and $775 for the tranny. > let's see, that's $2525... I wonder if I couldn't buy a > totaled 85 300 Turbo Diesel for that... > > What would an 85 go for if it was in good shape? Maybe I should > just shop for a nice clean one and sell/trade Fritz. > > BTW, what's the follow on body style to the 123 Series 300D? > > Any thoughts? > > john > ----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com > http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:22:05 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: 240D Overheated Part 2 how many miles? did the radiator suffer from salt on the roads? my 81 300d only has 134K on the clock, lived on the west coast the whole time. Orig owner from Hollywood. Garaged up here. Absolutely no rust. john At 09:33 AM 4/9/99 -0400, Eric Harry Hartz wrote: > >Well...I had the radiator rebuilt, hoses replaced, a pretty penny for a >college student who is driving buses in order to drive his car. The car >is holding constant temp, all is fine, I guess the radiator was finished >after being in service for 23 years. > >_________________________________________ >Eric Harry Hartz >College of Architecture and Urban Planning >711 Catherine Street >Ann Arbor, MI 48104 > > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:20:17 -0700 From: john Subject: RE: 300D At 08:34 AM 4/9/99 -0500, Alec Cordova wrote: > >After enjoying your posts to this list for a while, I whole-heartedly >recommend that you find some way to get an 85 300DT motor, whether it's in >it's original body or in Fritz. You'll never want to go back to normally >aspirated. >Alec Cordova >Taylor, Texas >85 300DT, <200K (odometer's been on the blink so long, I need to recalculate >this) I've driven a Turbo Diesel... I know I want one. :) My 85 xj had the 2.1 l Renault Turbo Diesel. Once after working on it I knocked a line loose that controlled the turbo... took it for a test run and thought, man, my tractor moves quicker than this... pulled it back in the shop and reconnected the line... what a difference a turbo can make! I also test drove an SDL, the thing I didn't like about it was the kick in at 35mph. I want that turbo off the line thank you... :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:53:35 -0400 From: "Christopher M. Klass" Subject: Morning Starts I was wondering if anyone knew what this was. If my 300SD is cold, or even if its warm out but hasn't run for more than 10 or so hours a very strange thing happens. Ready? OK. The engine starts with no problem, ever. Starts perfectly, allways. Ok, a little smoke. Now, when I put it in gear and give it gas, lots of gas, it is as though it is running on 3 cyl. BUT. As soon as it gets up to speed and the turbo kicks in for the 1st time, boom, it takes off. After that it runs normal. At low, pre-boast rpm, it motors along nice and strong. It is only when I first start it up. And once the turbo kicks in for the 1st time it is fine after that. Whats up??? Chris 82 300SD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:47:55 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Morning Starts It sounds to me like the turbo is acting like a plug. Once you spin it up, everything is fine... Could be bearings that are sticky when cold??? Stuck wastegate? Or perhaps the controls for the turbo are doing something they shouldn't. The Bosch injection pumps have a control over the turbos, the one on my 85 Jeep Turbo Diesel (Renault with a Bosch Pump, Garrett Airesearch Turbo) had a line that went to the turbo... if that line was removed my tractor was faster than that Jeep... How many miles on the Turbo? What kind of oil are you using? Are you letting the turbo spin down before shutting down? Any noises coming from the Turbo? I'd let the rig sit for that 10 hrs or so, drop the bolts to the turbo outlet and reach up there and try to spin the turbines, or if you can get to them without unbolting all the better, just see if the turbo is spinning freely. Also check the wastegate positioning. It's gonna be something simple, I can just feel it... :) (note, simple is not always cheap unfortunately... :) john At 11:53 PM 4/9/99 -0400, Christopher M. Klass wrote: >I was wondering if anyone knew what this was. If my 300SD is cold, or >even if its warm out but hasn't run for more than 10 or so hours a very >strange thing happens. Ready? OK. The engine starts with no problem, >ever. Starts perfectly, allways. Ok, a little smoke. > >Now, when I put it in gear and give it gas, lots of gas, it is as though >it is running on 3 cyl. BUT. As soon as it gets up to speed and the >turbo kicks in for the 1st time, boom, it takes off. After that it runs >normal. At low, pre-boast rpm, it motors along nice and strong. It is >only when I first start it up. And once the turbo kicks in for the 1st >time it is fine after that. > >Whats up??? > >Chris >82 300SD > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 22:08:12 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Morning Starts how much could a turbo cost? rofc (rolling on floor crying... :) actually, if it only does it when cold simply changing oil types might help. What oil do you use? How many miles on the turbo? You could try synthetic if you aren't already, and maybe even a preluber might help... if it's time to Turbo... you're only delaying the inevitable... :) My turbo was blowing a lot of oil when I had it redone... Sounds like you could live with this problem, or it's just a temporary one because you're using an oil that's turning to tar or varnish when you shut down. IT could even be that you have a bad injector that's causing your oil to thicken which in turn is causing it to goop up the bearings... need info... :) john At 12:46 AM 4/10/99 -0400, Christopher M. Klass wrote: >That does make sense. WOW. I would really hate for it to be the >bearings are bad! It rines fine, gets 24mpg, and there is no chatter. >I think that if it is turbo related it is something stuck closed. > >Chris > >john wrote: >> >> It sounds to me like the turbo is acting like a plug. Once >> you spin it up, everything is fine... Could be bearings that >> are sticky when cold??? Stuck wastegate? >> Or perhaps the controls for the turbo are doing something they shouldn't. - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 22:09:50 -0700 From: john Subject: sproing? Fritz makes a very peculiar sound when we first get underway. Comes from the right rear corner... kind of a sproing sound. Handles fine, bounce the car and everything seems normal and quiet. Any ideas??? john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html jesus, don't leave life without him, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:43:43 -0500 (CDT) From: matthew j mason Subject: Re: sproing? John -- does it also happen when going around turns, in either direction? If so -- my dad's older 300 does it too... a 115, though, from '76... if Fritz is sproinging while turning, I can check with him to see what it is on his.. -- mjm On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, john wrote: > Fritz makes a very peculiar sound when we first get underway. > Comes from the right rear corner... kind of a sproing sound. > Handles fine, bounce the car and everything seems normal and quiet. > > Any ideas??? > > john > ----------------------------------------------------- > john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com > http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john > http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > ----------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #120 *********************************