From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-krusty-motorsports.com Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #332 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Thursday, June 8 2000 Volume 01 : Number 332 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles John Meister Digest Coordinator Contents: an update on the 85 300D RE: an update on the 85 300D we b back... Re: Diesel operation Re: Diesel operation Re: Diesel operation Re: Diesel operation web pages... 240D starting characteristics Glow Plugs SoCal wanderings Re: 240D starting characteristics Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:01:15 -0700 From: john Subject: an update on the 85 300D just met a guy here at work who is selling his very nice 79 300TD (see http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/rigs/79-300TD ), anyway, I mentioned the 85 300D... turns out he's the one that put the chrome strips on the fender wells! :) Small world, eh? Anyway, he thinks that even at $4,300 it's a good deal. oh, btw, he's looking for about $8,000 for his 79 300TD. It's a beautiful rig... let him know I sent you. :) He did mention that on the 85's the starter is a one year item... same with the california emissions... later, john - ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:58:07 -0500 From: Alec Cordova Subject: RE: an update on the 85 300D John was waffling once again, and mentioned in part: >He did mention that on the 85's the starter is a one year item... I've had my 85 300D for around eight years, and I don't remember having replaced the starter. Which means I at least didn't replace it more than once in that time. ;-) Just remember not to be too skimpy when it comes to batteries. Alec ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 11:32:06 -0700 From: john Subject: we b back... looks like the posts I sent in this weekend made it as well. standing by for answers... ;) I've added some stuff to my server: http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/GoneTurtle http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/rigs/79-300TD and moved all the trail and fest reports for XJ and SJ into: http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports and http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS later, john - ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:37:36 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Diesel operation At 08:15 AM 6/7/00 -0600, Kurt Jansen wrote: >Dear John, > >I've never been in the positoin to start a letter that way before! rofl... I've gotten a few that start out that way... actually got one for real while in basic training... but that was a long, long time ago... ;) >I have a co-worker who drives a diesel Mercedes Benz. He maintains that >Glow Plugs are constantly electified during operation. I made the mistake >of telling him that the Glow Plugs are only powered until there is enough >residual heat to cause combustion. I believe this is normal in all diesels >and Mercedes Benz is no exception. I'm not sure exactly when the glow plugs are deactivated, if it's after a time out, or once the starter is activated, but I'm almost positive that the Glow Plug circuits are not active once the car is started and running. Some Diesels will time out after a while, others pulse the glow plugs and have thermal limiters... others will have power to the glow plugs as long as you hold the key... It varies. I do recall one of my GM cars cycling the glow plugs after starting... so there may be something to what your friend is saying... but it doesn't make sense that they'd keep glowing once the rig is running... The Glow Plugs usually are only activated when the key is in the position to glow... I don't know of any that stay on during normal operation, except my vague recollections of my 81 olds 5.7 relay clunking after startup.... I heard of some guy having trouble with a GM 6.5L saying that the shop left the ignition on and the glow plugs melted down... On the Benz you turn the key and wait for the light to go out... when my battery was weak on my 81 300D I would let it sit a little longer and then start it... I'm pretty sure that once you engage the starter the glow plugs are removed from operation, and quite possibly power is removed after it times out even before it's stareted... If I sat there waiting I would hear a relay click. Seems to me that's the way it should work. On my old 240D the plugs only glowed as long as I let them... ;) I'll cc this to the DieselBenz list, info on how to subscribe below, for further comments. :) john > >Could you settle our dispute and perhaps guide us to an On-Line source of >information on the operational characteristics of diesel engines? > >Thanks, Kurt Jansen. >kjansen-at-policy-studies.com ------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com - http://www.wagoneers.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------------------------------------------------- http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/diesel-benz-list.html (81 300D) http://www.wagoneers.com/john/JEEP/FSJ-list.html (77 Wagoneer) http://www.wagoneers.com/john/JEEP/XJ-list.html (88 xj wagoneer) ------------------------------------------------- jesus, don't leave life without him... ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:52:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerome Kaidor Subject: Re: Diesel operation > At 08:15 AM 6/7/00 -0600, Kurt Jansen wrote: > >Dear John, > > > >I've never been in the positoin to start a letter that way before! > > rofl... I've gotten a few that start out that way... actually > got one for real while in basic training... but that was a long, > long time ago... ;) > > > >I have a co-worker who drives a diesel Mercedes Benz. He maintains that > >Glow Plugs are constantly electified during operation. I made the mistake > >of telling him that the Glow Plugs are only powered until there is enough > >residual heat to cause combustion. I believe this is normal in all diesels > >and Mercedes Benz is no exception. > *** For sure, there's a timer. My question is: Does the glow plug system know when things are hot? In other words, is it smart enough not to run the glow plugs when you turn the key to "on" after you just finished a ride? It often seems to happen that I will drive somewhere, turn the engine off, and then have to put the key back "on" because I forgot to roll up the windows. Hopefully, the glowplugs are not coming on at that time! - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:05:32 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Diesel operation At 12:52 PM 6/7/00 -0700, Jerome Kaidor wrote: >> At 08:15 AM 6/7/00 -0600, Kurt Jansen wrote: >> >Dear John, >> > >> >I've never been in the positoin to start a letter that way before! >> >> rofl... I've gotten a few that start out that way... actually >> got one for real while in basic training... but that was a long, >> long time ago... ;) >> >> >> >I have a co-worker who drives a diesel Mercedes Benz. He maintains that >> >Glow Plugs are constantly electified during operation. I made the mistake >> >of telling him that the Glow Plugs are only powered until there is enough >> >residual heat to cause combustion. I believe this is normal in all diesels >> >and Mercedes Benz is no exception. >> >*** For sure, there's a timer. My question is: > > Does the glow plug system know when things are hot? In other words, is >it smart enough not to run the glow plugs when you turn the key to "on" >after you just finished a ride? > > It often seems to happen that I will drive somewhere, turn the engine >off, and then have to put the key back "on" because I forgot to roll up >the windows. Hopefully, the glowplugs are not coming on at that time! > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) I do believe there is a sensor of some kind... I sold all my shop manuals when I sold my 300D, so I can't verify... someone on the list will have to. I've had so many different Diesels, and they all had different systems... sorry... john - ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:11:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Youngquist Subject: Re: Diesel operation On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, john wrote: > >I have a co-worker who drives a diesel Mercedes Benz. He maintains that > >Glow Plugs are constantly electified during operation. I made the mistake > >of telling him that the Glow Plugs are only powered until there is enough > >residual heat to cause combustion. I believe this is normal in all diesels > >and Mercedes Benz is no exception. Kurt, of course, is correct, or at least close enough for govt. work, as they used to say. :) > position to glow... I don't know of any that stay on during normal > operation, except my vague recollections of my 81 olds 5.7 relay > clunking after startup.... The older GM & Ford diesels will do that. There's no purpose to cycling them on after startup, it's a side effect of how the glow plug controller works. > I heard of some guy having trouble with a GM 6.5L saying that the shop > left the ignition on and the glow plugs melted down... Either the new fangled electronics in the 6.5's glow plug system aren't nearly as smart as the stone age stuff on my Ford 6.9 & GM 6.2's, or his glow plug controller was shot and would've taken out the glow plugs pretty soon anyhow. They do that occasionally. A new controller & relay is cheap insurance when one buys a used rig. > >Could you settle our dispute and perhaps guide us to an On-Line source of > >information on the operational characteristics of diesel engines? Ford Diesel Website: http://www.ford-diesel.com GM Diesel Website: http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com Both these sites have discussion forums with boards where you can talk about any diesel, not just those the page is dedicated to. There are some really knowledgeable folks there, and you can usually get a good answer. Dan Youngquist Homestead Products Grain mills, water filters, lanterns, simple living & outdoors items http://www.teleport.com/~dany tel# 208-926-7137 / fax# 208-926-7139 / dany-at-teleport.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:12:27 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: web pages... I've been moving pages and directories around on wagoneers.com. If you notice a broken image, a bad link or other goofs, please let me know by emailing me the complete URL. I have 1,810 pages that are accessible... I'm hoping some of those are duplicates because of links... :) If you do link to wagoneers.com, please link to the main page. :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:09:46 -0500 From: "Italiano, Joseph J" Subject: 240D starting characteristics > MB Dieselers, > > I've noticed over that last several months my 1980 240D sometimes takes a > little more cranking to start. Normally it seems to start after only > maybe 2 seconds of cranking, but every once in a while it takes maybe 4 or > five seconds to start. > > The glow plug light seems to function normally, and I checked each glow > plug and they appear fine. I'm wondering if anyone has seen this > characteristic. The car always starts, but sometimes alot faster than > other times. > > I had the battery "tested" at autozone, and their box always says > "recharge and retest", even after the battery is fully charged. I guess > it's possible that the battery is on the weak side and it's not spinning > the starter quite fast enough to get reliable fast starts. It's about 3 > or 4 years old, and of the autozone brand. > > If anyone has seen this and found the solution, please let me know. The > car has 211kmiles, and the only engine work has been a set of injectors at > 153kmiles. > > Thanks > Joe > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:29:24 -0700 From: Mark Fountain Subject: Glow Plugs There are some Diesel engines that don't even have glow plugs. I know for a fact that the Cummins Diesel used on the early 90s full size Dodge pickups used a "hair dryer" scheme where the air is heated by a heating element as it enters the intake manifold, and then shuts down after the block reaches a certain temperature. This was also true on the Detroit Diesel 6 cylinder standby generator at the TV facility where I used to work. This unit had to be kept ready at all times so not only did it have a block heater that kept the block at about 90 degrees but also had a heating element in the intake air. I don't know of any Diesel engine that uses artificial heating after operating temperature is reached. In fact, sometimes on a hot day down in Calif. when I had my Mitsubishi 4 banger 83 Turbo Diesel pickup, I could start it without glowing at all. I've never tried that on my 300D. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:20:28 -0700 From: john Subject: SoCal wanderings This message isn't so much about Santa Barbara, as it is a test of the system. ;) Not sure if things are back up 100% or not... Anyway, the idea of moving to Santa Barbara evaporated with the salary talks... I don't know how anyone can live on what they've got as a range... I couldn't live up here with it... ;) Nonetheless, as a result of all this, I've restored the Camino-Cielo page and gathered up some nice scenic pictures from a friend down there... (thanx Tom!) http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/Camino-Cielo-March-1997.html http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/SantaBarbara/ (I moved the Camino-Cielo story from the FESTS page... decided it was more of a trail thing... either way, it was a blast and I would love to get back to SB again someday.) john - ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:25:05 -0500 From: "Jon Filina" Subject: Re: 240D starting characteristics Joe was puzzled and asked: > > I've noticed over that last several months my 1980 240D sometimes takes a > > little more cranking to start. Normally it seems to start after only > > maybe 2 seconds of cranking, but every once in a while it takes maybe 4 or > > five seconds to start. > > If anyone has seen this and found the solution, please let me know. The > > car has 211kmiles, and the only engine work has been a set of injectors at > > 153kmiles. When was the last time you adjusted the valves? The are supposed to be checked every 15,000 mi., but can go 25,000 or more without any harm. Valves that are out of adjustment will result in the engine being harder to start. Replacing the battery wouldn't be a bad idea, but I'd also have the valves checked and take a look at the chain at the same time. Jon '81 240D 252,??? mi. "Mathilde" ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #332 *********************************